Is Jesus Christianity?

[1213]

...No, not a feeling like an emotion, but I was at a loss for words in what I was trying to explain.

Ok, I think they are the same. What do you think is the difference between feeling and emotion?

 

[1213]

...The Greek scholars who wrote the gospels didn't have any eyewitnesses or written records we know of to work from. So it had to be made-up. But if solid evidence Jesus son of God did emerge somehow, I'd more than believe he lived, I' believe he was who the gospels say he was. Then I'd be saved. According to your theology, that is.

I don’t think we have enough evidence to say the Gospels are from Greek scholars originally.

I don’t have own theology, I have what is said in the Bible. And by what it tells, I can forgive your sins and so you are saved from the judgment that would otherwise come because of sin. But, it is not useful, if you don’t become righteous. I think you should understand what Jesus spoke, I think it is more important than to believe he exists.

 

[Trailblazer]

Ok, I think they are the same. What do you think is the difference between feeling and emotion?

According to the definition a feeling is an emotional state or reaction, so they are the same.

 

[Trailblazer]

Strictly speaking, that verse directly identifies the Comforter as the Holy Spirit. John 14:26 "But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost," There really isn't an argument here, unless you want to try to say that Holy Spirit is man. But yes, that one verse directly states it is the Holy Spirit. There is no putting puzzle pieces together with that one. So I'm not sure why you say it doesn't say that?

It is the Holy Ghost, which is the Bounty of God, but the bone of contention is how the Holy Ghost is sent. I believe it was sent by God to Jesus and Baha’u’llah and they brought it to the world and Christians believe it was sent by God at Pentecost to live inside of them.

John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

How do you think that the Holy Spirit that lives inside of Christians can teach all things or bring all things Jesus said to remembrance?

I wouldn't say that Christians "have to believe" that the Holy Spirit came on the day of Pentecost to the disciples as the promise of Jesus about the Comforter he would send, is because they do so because they want to reject Baha'u'llah. Christians have believed that for over 1800 years before that person was born.

That is true, Christians have believed that for over 1800 years, so it has nothing to do with rejecting Baha’u’llah, but the one Christian I posted to for over six years knew about Baha’u’llah and everything that Baha’is believe about Him.

And furthermore, most Christians in the world have never even heard of him, and yet all believe that verse is about the Holy Spirit, and not some promised future prophet. It has nothing to do with wanting to reject the Baha'i, whom most have never even heard of.

Not for the Christians that never heard about Baha’u’llah and what Baha’is believe but once they know and they still cling to their interpretation it is about rejecting Baha’u’llah in favor of the Christian interpretation.

But it's not one Bible verse, but many verses. And even so, that one verse directly identifies the Comforter as the Holy Spirit.

I already explained that above. The Comforter IS the Holy Spirit but it is merely a question about how it is delivered to us.

I have no problem believing that the Holy Spirit can "come to", or rather inspire many human beings, including your prophet, as well as all others who are aligned with the will of God. It clearly teaches this in scripture, where the Spirit "comes" to the disciples and fills all believers hearts, if they allow it.

I do not take issue with any of what you said or what Christians believe about the Holy Spirit coming to the disciples, and Baha’u’llah even confirms that:

24: THE DESCENT OF THE HOLY SPIRIT UPON THE APOSTLES

The issue I have with Christians is that they rigidly believe that the Holy Spirit was only sent at Pentecost and it was never again sent after that, and that it was not necessary for it to ever be sent by God again, because it lives inside the believers. I consider that a ludicrous belief because I believe that The Holy Spirit was sent not only to Baha’u’llah, but also the Muhammad and the Bab.

Welcome to the doctrine of the Trinity.

Yes, the Son, the Father, and the Holy Spirit, are all one and the same Divine Reality. "To see me, is to see the Father", said Jesus.

Baha’is also believe in the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, so in that sense we believe in a Trinity; but we do not think that these three are part of God. Rather, they are separate entities that work together. That is explained in this chapter: 27: THE TRINITY

If you're going to use their scriptures and ignore thousands of years of teachings, just because, that's not really all that wise or prudent.

That said however, regarding the Christian faith, how Christians view their scriptures and the meaning of the faith is not a univocal, monolithic thing by any means. Rather, think of it like Light hitting the prism of people's consciousness. How that Light refracts into different colors, is a matter of multiple factors that create that lens for that individual.

Some see Spirit through a purple colored refraction of Light, others a red color, others orange colored, others green colored, others yellow, others tiel, others indigo. While your experiences with red Christianity may be one thing, others with green Christianity may understand it quite differently, or teal or indigo Christianity differently than red and green Christianity. And so forth.

To understand more about how you believe, it's good to understand how others think about God. Not all Christians believe the same ways. See Romans 14 full chapter which goes into some depth about this.

I did not mean I do not 'care' what they believe, I meant that what they believe is not relevant to me if I believe it is false. By no means do I believe that all Christian beliefs are false, but it they contradict Baha’i beliefs I consider them false. However, as you said there are many colors of Christian beliefs and I agree with many Christian beliefs if they are based upon the teachings of Jesus; it is the man-made Christian doctrines I do not believe in.

use of "descended", and "ascended" are metaphors, not facts. These are ways to express the ways in which things appear or are experienced by us. They are "as if" statements, not technical details of altitudes and rates of descent from arial positions towards ground targets.

I agree that they are metaphors but there are Christians who believe that the Holy Spirit literally lives inside of their bodies, there are even Christians who believe that Jesus lives inside of them.

It is also possible that you may not understand the ways in which they understand what those things mean when they use the Biblical language. Do all Christians believe Jesus' literal corpse literally rose from the grave, and will literally come back to earth from it's interstellar location after it's liftoff from earth 2000 years ago? I'm sure some literally think that way. But I'm also pretty a huge number also do not.

No, not all Christians believe that but a fair number of them do and those are the Christian s who like to talk about the literal return of Jesus in the clouds. The other Christians do not say much about the return of Christ so I do not know what they believe.

You may ask a Christian for instance if they believe Jesus literally walked on water. Some will insist we should read the texts literally, and others will conclude they are symbolic stories meant to convey higher truths about overcoming the impossible through faith in God. I'd venture if pressed, the majority think the latter, even if they can't articulate it to themselves as I have here, or are willing to express their real doubts in the literalist interpretation of scripture, but unable to articulate why or how, as I just have.

I agree that not all Christians interpret all the Bible stories such as Jesus walking in water literally, but most Christians believe the gospel stories about Jesus literally rising from the dead are literally true. That belief is just a stone’s throw from believing Jesus ascended to heaven in the clouds and will return from heaven in the clouds.

Obviously, there is failing in their thinking here, as there is no way they could know whoever that was they found was the original Jesus or not. I prefer to understand the 2nd coming as a metaphor for mass spiritual awakening. And a spiritual awakening, does not need flesh and bone bodies in order to see the Divine in the world. They just need to open their eyes. True for anyone, at anytime in history.

But these kinds of Christians don’t think logically. They just ‘believe’ they will somehow ‘know’ it is Jesus when He shows up. That is called magical thinking. I believe there will be a mass spiritual awakening but I believe that was precipitated by the Coming of Baha’u’llah. I believe that Jesus was the Herald of the Kingdom of God because He announced its coming and Jesus also laid the foundation for the Kingdom by spiritualizing humanity.

Most Christians believe that Jesus is coming back to build the Kingdom of God on earth but Jesus never promised He was going to do that. Baha’is believe that Baha’u’llah revealed what will be necessary for humans to build the Kingdom of God. The Kingdom of God on earth is a spiritual kingdom which will be accompanied by a new race of men, but it is also a material kingdom which will bring much needed changes in the economic and social structure and government, a new world order that is just and equitable.

 

[Trailblazer]

It does not say God is "a spirit", like saying Mittens is a cat, or Scruffy is a dog. "God is Spirit", Jn. 4:24. Not, "God is a spirit". Radically different thing being pointed to here. Spirit is the essence or nature of the Divine, namely that it is formeless, like the wind in nature. It points to the everywhere and anywhere'ness of God, unbounded, unconfined within the constrictions of a dualistic reality of subject and object divisions.

That’s true but I still do not believe a boundless formless spirit is going to do all the things I listed below. In John 14, 15, and 16 the Comforter and the Spirit of Truth are referred to as “he.”

· Teach you all things
· Call to remembrance what Jesus said
· Testify of Jesus
· Glorify Jesus, receive of Jesus, and shew it unto you
· Guide you into all truth
· Speak what He hears and shew you things to come
· Reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment

Why would say Spirit cannot do all of these things? I very much believe it can and does do all those things. Spirit inside us, within us, inspires us in all these directions. If we listen.

I know what you mean, but it has taken me years of effort to come to where I can hear the voice within, it did not come naturally.

This is where you and I disagree because I believe that most people need direction for outside of themselves. Most people are not like you, you are in a small minority, so most people are not even aware of the spirit inside them. What the Christians believe, the Holy Spirit inside, will not be enough to guide them, and it will never be enough to change the world, considering how materialistic people have become. Moreover, if the Holy Spirit living inside was going to change the world it has had 2000 years to do so, and I do not see a positive change.

If we don't know how to be open to it, then it might seem as if it requires something or someone outside of yourself to tell you, show you, teach you, and so forth. An early student of any discipline may need that, but a certain stage, in order to become mature in your practice, you have to let the inner teacher guide you. That shows you things other outside you could not, because it is you acting in harmony with that inner guide, or teacher.

Everyone has to start somewhere and many people are only beginning their spiritual journey, they are not yet mature. I believe that whatever guidance we get from God has to be suited to everyone, no matter what their starting points. Had I not read the Writings of Baha’u’llah and Baha’u’llah I would not know what I know. I guess one can get the same spiritual teachings from the Bible but I was never a Christian, I never even believed in God. Had I not discovered the Baha’i Faith when I did I could have been misled by some guru, but now that I know the teachings I always have them to refer to, so I know right behaviors from wrong.

I believe that the universal Manifestations of God (also called Prophets or Messengers of God) are sent by God to earth in every new age, and by their coming the world of existence is renewed, a new religious cycle is inaugurated, a new religion is revealed, and souls are quickened to a new life. Below are a few passages that I collected over the years that explain God’s purpose in sending His Prophets, why they are needed by humanity.

“From the foregoing passages and allusions it hath been made indubitably clear that in the kingdoms of earth and heaven there must needs be manifested a Being, an Essence Who shall act as a Manifestation and Vehicle for the transmission of the grace of the Divinity Itself, the Sovereign Lord of all. Through the Teachings of this Day Star of Truth every man will advance and develop until he attaineth the station at which he can manifest all the potential forces with which his inmost true self hath been endowed. It is for this very purpose that in every age and dispensation the Prophets of God and His chosen Ones have appeared amongst men, and have evinced such power as is born of God and such might as only the Eternal can reveal.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 67-68

“God’s purpose in sending His Prophets unto men is twofold. The first is to liberate the children of men from the darkness of ignorance, and guide them to the light of true understanding. The second is to ensure the peace and tranquillity of mankind, and provide all the means by which they can be established.” Gleanings, pp. 79-80

“The Prophets and Messengers of God have been sent down for the sole purpose of guiding mankind to the straight Path of Truth. The purpose underlying Their revelation hath been to educate all men, that they may, at the hour of death, ascend, in the utmost purity and sanctity and with absolute detachment, to the throne of the Most High.” Gleanings, pp. 156-157

So being led by Spirit, is something that becomes a normal thing, if you have developed the awareness and sensitivity within yourself to recognize, hear, and respond to its leadings, or its 'voice', so to speak. There is nothing strange or terribly mysterious about it, once it becomes just how you live life.

Whereas that is true, the average person has to learn that skill and that is one purpose of Prophets. A child is not born with this kind of awareness.

That in fact, really is what I believe Jesus wanted to teach his followers. To hear that inner voice, listen to it, and be transformed in how you live your life. Become a son or daughter of God, like he was. To me, anything less than that, is just religion. Transformation is the real goal. Religion should be like school, where you learn how to learn yourself and graduate from it.

That is what Jesus taught, but I do not believe that Christianity is viable anymore, so even though the truth is in Jesus’ teachings people are not listening to what Jesus taught since they associate it with Christianity. That is why a new Revelation from God was necessary; to reiterate and refresh what was revealed in the past religions. Religion has been forgotten by most people, it is no longer real, it is in form only.

Religion is not only for the individual, it benefits society. Individual spiritual transformation is important but a spiritual transformation of society must take place if the world is ever going to change for the better. Most people do not want to ‘graduate’ from religion, they want to be a part of something larger than themselves, and they want ongoing fellowship. I am the exception because I am an introvert but most people are extroverts and that is why the social isplation die to the pandemic has been so devastation for many people.

Most Christians I know, the majority of them, see Jesus's resurrection as a "spiritual body". He could walk through walls, for instance. It's not the same flesh and bone man. Not even in the gospels does it teach that. So, I don't think this is an issue for most Christians to see it like that. Some are very literal though, and think he's got the same body, and all that.

You must hang with a different crowd than I do. I never even realized there was a different Christian view of the resurrection in a spiritual body until recently. I thought all Christians believe in a bodily resurrection, a flesh and bone man. Christians will say that the gospels teach a flesh and bone man and they refer me to Luke 24:39 “Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.”

I can believe it is possible that the spiritual body of Jesus rose after His physical body died and appeared to the disciples and others because that makes sense. So what do you believe the gospels teach about the resurrection of Jesus?

 

[capumetu]

If the Bible is the only way to identify Christians, then why is it they were called Christians in Antioch for the first time, while Paul was still alive in Acts 11:26?

Surely, there was no Bible either written or compiled yet in Paul's time, unless you wish to refer to the OT books as the Christian Bible of that time? If so, then you can't then today now quote NT verses as proofs of who true Christians are. They were called Christians before there were any NT books.

It's the same thing as calling the books of the NT as "the word of God". Any NT author referring to scripture, was not referring to modern texts of their time, especially ones not yet written, such as all four of the gospels we have today.


All NT texts.

I keep it much simpler. "Love works no ill". If you do that, you are a follower of Christ.

As you stated sir, Christians were called that first at Antioch. Jehovah of course had people which were referred to by different titles for millenniums prior, but under the new covenant, Jehovah's people were now led by His Christ from where the name was derived.

The New Testament, are later day additions to God's inspired word sir, they are really just a continuation of the Bible, but were originally written in Greek, and cover the Christian covenant moreso than Pre-Christian law.

 

[alypius]

It is, but I do not claim that Jesus taught any of those tenets I listed.
The burden of proof is on those who claim He did.

Given that this thread was started with the claim: "Jesus did not teach the following tenets" then how can the burden be on the interlocutor to provide evidence?
Surely the one who starts with the claim: "Jesus did not teach these things" should provide evidence to support his or her claim?

 

[Trailblazer]

Given that this thread was started with the claim: "Jesus did not teach the following tenets" then how can the burden be on the interlocutor to provide evidence?
Surely the one who starts with the claim: "Jesus did not teach these things" should provide evidence to support his or her claim?

Fair enough, but how would I provide evidence that Jesus did not teach those tenets if Jesus did not teach those tenets? Where would the evidence come from? If Christians claim that Jesus taught those tenets then they need to point out where that is in the New Testament. I cannot provide evidence for something that is not there.

 

[Windwalker]

How do you think that the Holy Spirit that lives inside of Christians can teach all things or bring all things Jesus said to remembrance?

The exact mechanisms and neural pathways the information travels on is a bit of a scientific mystery. Seriously though, there are many ways in which Truth arises to our minds through Spirit. Such as in a quiet moment, contemplating the setting sun, for instance. Or, while you're doing the dishes, or chopping wood, through a piece of music, through the advise of a friend, etc..

Anytime, anywhere, and anyway, I suppose would be the best answer to this. But the crucial mechanism, is our own individual openness and receptivity. Without that, we will likely only hear the authority of our own voice clambering around in our heads all day long, in a maddening sort of blind leading the blind scenario.

That is true, Christians have believed that for over 1800 years, so it has nothing to do with rejecting Baha’u’llah, but the one Christian I posted to for over six years knew about Baha’u’llah and everything that Baha’is believe about Him.

Not for the Christians that never heard about Baha’u’llah and what Baha’is believe but once they know and they still cling to their interpretation it is about rejecting Baha’u’llah in favor of the Christian interpretation.

Are you saying that if someone chooses the Christian perspective over the Baha'is, that is tantamount to rejecting God? Do you believe that everyone who believes in God, needs to understand God the same ways, all believing the same things, all believing in the same religious figures? Is faith a one-size-fits-all sort of thing, and the true measure of faith is one's conformity to a set of standardized beliefs laid out by a teacher of religion?

Can a Christian reject Baha'i beliefs, and still be walking with God? Or are they sinning and rejecting God Himself, by not converting? Is that what faith really is? Specific religious beliefs about God?

The issue I have with Christians is that they rigidly believe that the Holy Spirit was only sent at Pentecost and it was never again sent after that, and that it was not necessary for it to ever be sent by God again, because it lives inside the believers. I consider that a ludicrous belief because I believe that The Holy Spirit was sent not only to Baha’u’llah, but also the Muhammad and the Bab.

I think you and I have very different experiences of the Christian world. The group I used to be associated with in my youth were Pentecostal/Charismatic oriented. In some parts of the world, they make up close to 25% of the Christian population. So that's not a small number.

I can tell you without a doubt that they believe what happened at Pentecost, happens today as well, with the "outpouring of the Holy Spirit", along with the gifts of the spirit, tongues talking, healings, miracles, and all of that stuff you read in the book of Acts. They see the Holy Ghost as coming to anyone at anytime.

A favorite verse of theirs reads like this,

And afterward,
I will pour out my Spirit on all people.
Your sons and daughters will prophesy,
your old men will dream dreams,
your young men will see visions.

Even on my servants, both men and women,
I will pour out my Spirit in those days.

~Joel 2:28,29
​

They believe this modern outpouring of the Spirit in accord with this last-days prophecy. This is referring to all believers, not just one person every one thousand years, according to them.

I did not mean I do not 'care' what they believe, I meant that what they believe is not relevant to me if I believe it is false. By no means do I believe that all Christian beliefs are false, but it they contradict Baha’i beliefs I consider them false. However, as you said there are many colors of Christian beliefs and I agree with many Christian beliefs if they are based upon the teachings of Jesus; it is the man-made Christian doctrines I do not believe in.

Do you believe that if you have a certain perspective of the truth, and that someone else has a different perspective of the same thing, that they are wrong and believing something false because you, or those who agree with you, see it differently from them?

Is it not possible that you have can multiple perspectives of truth, and they all be true in their own ways? Or must how we think about something, be identical in order for it to be considered true?

I agree that they are metaphors but there are Christians who believe that the Holy Spirit literally lives inside of their bodies, there are even Christians who believe that Jesus lives inside of them.

I believe the Spirit of God literally exists within all of creation, including the cells and atoms of our bodies, everything, from strings, to quarks, to atoms, to molecules, to cells, to organs, to bodies, to mind, to soul, to spirit, all of it.

Again, back to just the Infinity argument. If there are places where God does not exist, such as in our bodies, that makes God like a block of Swiss Cheese, and not omnipresent Spirit. It makes God a creature, not the Creator. It makes God more like a Yeti that is somewhere off by himself hiding somewhere behind a rock formation up in the mountains, a magical creature, as opposed to the Creator.

There are of course other reasons I say this beyond that argument, but that's a good one by itself. One no one to date who believes God is an "entity" separate from creation is able to address. Either God is Infinite and that means everywhere at all times, or he is finite and not everywhere at all times. The latter view of God, is not something I believe many if any Christians believe, except through just a simple ignorance on their part.

I agree that not all Christians interpret all the Bible stories such as Jesus walking in water literally, but most Christians believe the gospel stories about Jesus literally rising from the dead are literally true. That belief is just a stone’s throw from believing Jesus ascended to heaven in the clouds and will return from heaven in the clouds.

Believing Jesus was resurrected, does not necessarily mean they literally believe his dead body came back to life. A reanimated corpse, in other words.

Many Christians believe in the truth of the resurrection, the truth of what it symbolizes, of the Awakening spirit within us, the old man dying or surrendering his life to God, and rising a new creature in Christ, to be the point of the story. That is a real truth to them, without needing to take the story and make it scientifically factual, where we could take a DNA test, run some EEG scans of his brain, and say, "Yep, it's Jesus. He's back. That was interesting."

I'll reply to the 2nd post separately.

 

[Muffled]

I believe Christianity is Jesus. I am not in agreement that Jesus is Christianity. I have never agreed with your Pauline fantasies but there is no doubt that without Jesus, Christianity isn't what it should be.

 

[Muffled]

I make a distinction between churchianty and Christianity. To me, Christianity is about trying to live the message of the Christ. Churchianity is about arguing about beliefs, dismissing those who you disagree with and so forth.

I believe living according to the message of Christ is Islamic Christianity and not the essence of Christianity.

 

[Muffled]

That's why he's not coming back yet. He knows they'd hate him and just want to crucify him again, being the hippie liberal socialist, and all that that he is.

I believe Jesus comes back in judgment and needs not worry about what men think.

 

[Windwalker]

I believe Jesus comes back in judgment and needs not worry about what men think.

So he's not coming back as a love and peace hippie socialist liberal, like he came the first time? This time, it's all out war, baby? We're past all that love stuff now. It's the new Jesus, with revenge in his eyes.

 

[sun rise]

I believe living according to the message of Christ is Islamic Christianity and not the essence of Christianity.

If following the teachings of the Christ are not the essence of Christianity, what is?