Is Jesus Christ true God AND true man?

[peacecrusader888]

20111115.0035
Jesus Christ is true man because there was a person by the name of Jesus Christ who existed some 2000 years ago. His Father was God that is why He is called the “Son of God” (Luke 1:35). His mother, Mary, conceived and gave birth to Jesus while she was a virgin. Since His mother was a human being, He is called the “Son of man” (Luke 2:7).

Do you believe:
1. That there existed a person by the name of Jesus Christ?
2. That He is the true God Himself (John 17:3)?

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

I do not doubt Jesus existed.

Nor do I doubt that through his mission on earth he left many important teachings from God.
I feel the miraculous birth and the belief in the Trinity is optional.

It could be argued that all humans are the sons of God. Though I do not believe that that gives them any precedence of the rest of Gods creation.

 

[peacecrusader888]

20111115.0645

@Terrywoodenpic

Miraculous birth? A virgin conceiving and giving birth to a son? Why? Was this not prophesied about 700 years earlier by the prophet Isaiah? Isaiah 7:14 states “Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign: Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.” Is there anything impossible to God?

Do you not believe in the Trinity – the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit? Jesus said in Matthew 28:19, “Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost”. Hence, there are three persons who are believed to be the persons of the Trinity. But Jesus said in John 17:3, “And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.” So the Father is the only true God. Is there anything impossible to God? God made Himself into three – as the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

20111115.0645

@Terrywoodenpic

Miraculous birth? A virgin conceiving and giving birth to a son? Why? Was this not prophesied about 700 years earlier by the prophet Isaiah? Isaiah 7:14 states “Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign: Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.” Is there anything impossible to God?

Do you not believe in the Trinity – the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit? Jesus said in Matthew 28:19, “Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost”. Hence, there are three persons who are believed to be the persons of the Trinity. But Jesus said in John 17:3, “And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.” So the Father is the only true God. Is there anything impossible to God? God made Himself into three – as the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

Ask the question about Isaiah to a Jew... they would not interpret this as meaning Jesus.

The Trinity was a much later construct.
There is God the Father
There is Jesus His (spiritual) Son
There is the Holy spirit the comforter

This was taught to new converts in the Didache right into the late third century. They were never construed as One being, as one God.

There is no evidence that Mary was a virgin. Had she been, Jesus must have been female. (no Y chromosome.) This does not stop Jesus being God's spiritual son.

Where Scripture is plainly contradicted by science or other evidence and reason.
I look for simpler solutions. such as it was probably only the best guess of the Author.

 

[InChrist]

20111115.0035
Jesus Christ is true man because there was a person by the name of Jesus Christ who existed some 2000 years ago. His Father was God that is why He is called the “Son of God” (Luke 1:35). His mother, Mary, conceived and gave birth to Jesus while she was a virgin. Since His mother was a human being, He is called the “Son of man” (Luke 2:7).

Do you believe:
1. That there existed a person by the name of Jesus Christ?
2. That He is the true God Himself (John 17:3)?

Yes, I believe that Jesus Christ is fully God and fully human. I also believe in the virgin birth and the triune nature of God. The eternal Father, Son, and Holy Spirit as revealed in the scriptures.

 

[peacecrusader888]

20111116.1815

@Terrywoodenpic, #4

I know that the Jews do not interpret Isaiah 7:14 to mean Jesus. They are followers of Judaism. Using logic, can the Jews still trace their lineage to King David after being dispersed to different places in the Roman empire called the Diaspora, after undergoing the Inquisition from the 13th to the 19th century, and after suffering massive losses in the Holocaust in WWII? It is now about 2,700 years since Isaiah prophesied it.

The Messiah had come and gone and they are still waiting for His coming. They even crucified and killed Him. Look at Christianity now. There are more believers of Jesus than those of Judaism.

Did you know that the preaching of the gospel had been taken from the Jews? Jesus stated in Matthew 21:42-44 (KJV): “Did ye never read in the scriptures, the stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord’s doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes? Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof. And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.”

Who is the cornerstone that the builder’s rejected? It is Jesus! From whom was the kingdom of God taken? From the Jews. To which nation was it given? Believe it or not, it is to the Philippines. Why are the Filipinos in different parts of world today? As Overseas Filipino Workers or as migrants. You know, two months ago, a Filipino told me that Pilipino is prophetic. “Pili na, pino pa”, he said. “Pili” means chosen and “pino” means fine like powder as a result of grinding. There are other revelations why it is the Philippines. I will discuss these later.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

20111116.1815

@Terrywoodenpic, #4

I know that the Jews do not interpret Isaiah 7:14 to mean Jesus. They are followers of Judaism. Using logic, can the Jews still trace their lineage to King David after being dispersed to different places in the Roman empire called the Diaspora, after undergoing the Inquisition from the 13th to the 19th century, and after suffering massive losses in the Holocaust in WWII? It is now about 2,700 years since Isaiah prophesied it.

The Messiah had come and gone and they are still waiting for His coming. They even crucified and killed Him. Look at Christianity now. There are more believers of Jesus than those of Judaism.

Did you know that the preaching of the gospel had been taken from the Jews? Jesus stated in Matthew 21:42-44 (KJV): “Did ye never read in the scriptures, the stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord’s doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes? Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof. And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.”

Who is the cornerstone that the builder’s rejected? It is Jesus! From whom was the kingdom of God taken? From the Jews. To which nation was it given? Believe it or not, it is to the Philippines. Why are the Filipinos in different parts of world today? As Overseas Filipino Workers or as migrants. You know, two months ago, a Filipino told me that Pilipino is prophetic. “Pili na, pino pa”, he said. “Pili” means chosen and “pino” means fine like powder as a result of grinding. There are other revelations why it is the Philippines. I will discuss these later.

I do not understand why a Christian would associate Jesus with the expectation of the Jewish Messiah.

Such a belief adds nothing to the accomplishment of Jesus life and work.

Of course at the time the Jewish community were living in hope that the Messiah would come and lead them to victory over the Romans.

Jesus was not that sort of person, he was not that person. he came with a message of love ... love of fellow men , and love of enemies.

We should not be looking to the Jewish scripture for our Christian blessings... they are to be found in Jesus teachings alone.

If The Filipino's are to fulfil Gods word and be the seeds of of Jesus future on earth.
They need to bring a message for everyone that is inclusive, simple, and which is based on those things that Jesus taught us.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Yes, I believe that Jesus Christ is fully God and fully human. I also believe in the virgin birth and the triune nature of God. The eternal Father, Son, and Holy Spirit as revealed in the scriptures.

Isn't it revealed in Scripture that Jesus is the beginning of the creation by God?-
-Revelation 3v14 B

In Scripture God had No beginning according to Psalm 90v2.
No Scripture says Jesus was before the beginning as God was before the beginning.

 

[Tonymai]

Jesus is a Son of God coming from above to demonstrate how man can become divine (perfect). He is God and man by the virtue that he is from above, a Son of God incarnated in a human body.

 

[SCHIZO]

20111115.0035
Jesus Christ is true man because there was a person by the name of Jesus Christ who existed some 2000 years ago. His Father was God that is why He is called the “Son of God” (Luke 1:35). His mother, Mary, conceived and gave birth to Jesus while she was a virgin. Since His mother was a human being, He is called the “Son of man” (Luke 2:7).

Do you believe:
1. That there existed a person by the name of Jesus Christ?
2. That He is the true God Himself (John 17:3)?

The lion is human. Jesus even admits that he can do nothing of his own power but by God. He was no more God than you or I. He was merely chosen. The lion is human, don't be fooled.

 

[InChrist]

Isn't it revealed in Scripture that Jesus is the beginning of the creation by God?-
-Revelation 3v14 B

In Scripture God had No beginning according to Psalm 90v2.
No Scripture says Jesus was before the beginning as God was before the beginning.

[FONT=&quot]The Greek word used in Revelation 3:14 for “beginning” is arche. It is translated as: beginning, corner, magistrate, power, principality, principle rule in the Strong’s Concordance. Arche is the root for the English word architect. This verse does not say that Jesus had a beginning. It indicates as do other scriptures that Jesus Christ is the source, the power, and the Creator who began creation.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]These verses clearly point out the supremacy of Christ as Creator over all of creation.[/FONT]

 

[Renji]

This is what we Catholics believe in:

Jesus is 100% man and 100% God

Here are some verses suggesting that Jesus is truly man and truly God:

From the OT:

Is 7:14 Therefore the Lord himself will give you this sign: the virgin shall be with child, and bear a son, and name him Immanuel (meaning God with us)

Exodus: 3:14-17, Moses asked God, "If they ask me, "What is his name?" what am I going to tell them? God replied, "I am who am"

In connection to that verse in Exodus, we can see that Jesus in the same manner said the following:

Jn 8:58 Jesus said to them..."Before Abraham came to be, I am."

Jn 13:19 From now on I am telling you before it happens, you may believe that I am.

Other verses:

Col 1:15,18 He (Christ) is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation, He is the head of the body, the Church.

Jn 20:28 Thomas answered and said to him, "My Lord and my God"

Jd 25: To the only God our savior, through Jesus Christ be glory, majesty, power and authority from ages past, now and for ages to come. Amen

Jesus humbled himself to such a low position:

Mk10:18 Why do you call me good? No one is good but God alone?

Mk15:34; mt 27:46 My God, my God, why have you abandoned me? (*Jesus citing Psalm 22)

Philippians 2:6-7 Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped. Rather, he emptied himself, taking the form of a slave, coming in human likeness and found in human appearance.

Catholic notes:
In his lowliness, we can notice the 4 distinguishable types of mighty acts or signs found in the New testament: exorcisms, healing, resuscitations and so called nature wonders such as feeding of the five thousand, Jesus walking on water, and Jesus calms the sea. These mighty acts can only be done by God.

Hope that helps.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

Jesus was "en-powered" by God

It can be argued that all souls come from and return to God and therefor like God are outside time.

Jesus is no exception in this. He came from and returned to God.
Un Like God All of creation is Limited by time, it is our mortal nature.
It is how we live out our destiny.

Jesus mission during his life on Earth, was to teach us how we were to live our lives. It gave us a new ethic, a new path...we encapsulated this in to a new Religion Based on Jesus teachings.
We cross the line when we make out that Jesus is the equal of God.
While he may seem as important to us, he is always subservient to God his father.

He always gave God the credit for what he did, never himself.

 

[Dirty Penguin]

20111115.0035
Jesus Christ is true man because there was a person by the name of Jesus Christ who existed some 2000 years ago. His Father was God that is why He is called the “Son of God” (Luke 1:35). His mother, Mary, conceived and gave birth to Jesus while she was a virgin. Since His mother was a human being, He is called the “Son of man” (Luke 2:7).

Do you believe:
1. That there existed a person by the name of Jesus Christ?
2. That He is the true God Himself (John 17:3)?

How can he be "God" when he himself said explicitly he had a god (John 20:17). Now this is while he is on Earth. Then we find that the "ascended" Yeshua back in heaven once again explicitly says he has a god (Rev. 3:12). We find Yeshua in various locations stating his god "taught" him, told/instructed him as to what he should say to the people....John (The Baptist) equates Yeshua as being an ambassador to "God" by stating that Yeshua is from "God" and speaks on behalf of "God" ("God's" Word) (John 6:38). Simon Peter didn't think he was "God" when he said "You are the Messiah, son of the living god" (Matthew 16:16). Yeshua confirms this in his prayer to his god when he says "This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true god, and Yeshua the Messiah whom You have sent." (John 17:3). In order to be sent there must be a sender. The trinity is a late 4th century concept. Jews did not and do not teach that "God" is a man or that the prophesied Messiah would be "God" regardless of how many times Christians mistakenly misinterpret the book of Isaiah.

 

[beenie]

**Mod Post**

This thread has been moved to Religious Debates​

 

[Shermana]

The trinity is a late 4th century concept.

It's more of a late 2nd century concept to be precise, but even the Founder of this doctrine, Tertullian, went on to defect from it to become a Montanist (which is basically a precursor to Modalism). It seems most Trinitarians aren't actually classical Trinitarians but take the Sabbelian/Modalist position without realizing it. Felix I was likely the one who pushed it as the "official" doctrine right before Arius came on the stage to restore the original understanding.

 

[outhouse]

Do you believe:
1. That there existed a person by the name of Jesus Christ?
2. That He is the true God Himself (John 17:3)?

1. There probably was a mortal man who was a traveling teacher of judaism who was baptized by john and was a decent healer who ticked off the romans and was put to death on a cross for it.

beyond that nothing can be said with any certainty.




2. No, he was just a man later deified by a culture that deified everything.

 

[outhouse]

It's more of a late 2nd century concept to be precise, but even the Founder of this doctrine, Tertullian, went on to defect from it to become a Montanist (which is basically a precursor to Modalism). It seems most Trinitarians aren't actually classical Trinitarians but take the Sabbelian/Modalist position without realizing it. Felix I was likely the one who pushed it as the "official" doctrine right before Arius came on the stage to restore the original understanding.

in the second century the trinity as we know it did not exist


you need to back your staement

 

[outhouse]

while true Tertullian used the term trinity, he did not have the same concept as they use today

 

[Shermana]

while true Tertullian used the term trinity, he did not have the same concept as they use today

Would you say that Tertullian was more of a proto-Sabbellian then? What exactly do you think he changed to Montanism for, and who do you think first proposed the official Trinity Doctrine before Felix I?