Is it possible to investigate Bahaullah's claim?

[InvestigateTruth]

Yes it is possible to investigate through historical sources that Bahaullah did in fact, studied in the subject of religions and resulted in his knowledge of Arabic. He was afterall, a member of nobility and was with in practice of that era, had education in those subjects. Many of the themes that are studied, can be seen in his religious teachings, such as, manifestation of God and/or God's grace, self knowledge, all are of one people/race, the equality of religion as being "all" true, the capability of humanity achieving higher divinity, helping the poor, etc. Part of the teachings was about the idea of the student and devotion to the teacher. So it wasn't anything like a 3 month course, but a long term study course. And it's not out of the ordinary for someone at a young age to have a life inspiring moment and decide to gain as much knowledge and understanding of a particular subject. For Bahaullah, it was a puppet show.

Please see post #139:

Is it possible to investigate Bahaullah's claim?

 

[night912]

Please see post #139:

Is it possible to investigate Bahaullah's claim?

What am I supposed to be looking for in that post?

 

[InvestigateTruth]

What am I supposed to be looking for in that post?

Take it as a reply to your last post.

 

[night912]

Take it as a reply to your last post.

And that still says nothing.

Anyways, the answer to the OP still stands, historically, it's shown that he did in fact studied in the the subject of religions and learned Arabic growing up.

 

[night912]

Take it as a reply to your last post.

"See post #139," didn't address what I said in my post.

 

[Trailblazer]

I'll look through the evidence and come back on this. It will take some time.
Bahauallah was a very well educated person, which throws this claim of his in to extreme doubt and mistrust, I'm afraid.

I can hardly wait for the evidence that proves this. You refute Baha'u'llah and I am outa here and off to the beach for a vacation.

I have been asking people to refute Baha'u'llah for years.... You do it and you will get the door prize and part of my fortune since I will not have to leave it to the Bahai Faith.

For the benefit of our viewers, this is what needs to be refuted:

“O KING! I was but a man like others, asleep upon My couch, when lo, the breezes of the All-Glorious were wafted over Me, and taught Me the knowledge of all that hath been. This thing is not from Me, but from One Who is Almighty and All-Knowing. And He bade Me lift up My voice between earth and heaven, and for this there befell Me what hath caused the tears of every man of understanding to flow.The learning current amongst men I studied not; their schools I entered not. Ask of the city wherein I dwelt, that thou mayest be well assured that I am not of them who speak falsely. This is but a leaf which the winds of the will of thy Lord, the Almighty, the All-Praised, have stirred.”” Proclamation of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 57

 

[oldbadger]

I can hardly wait for the evidence that proves this. You refute Baha'u'llah and I am outa here and off to the beach for a vacation.

I have been asking people to refute Baha'u'llah for years.... You do it and you will get the door prize and part of my fortune since I will not have to leave it to the Bahai Faith.

For the benefit of our viewers, this is what needs to be refuted:

“O KING! I was but a man like others, asleep upon My couch, when lo, the breezes of the All-Glorious were wafted over Me, and taught Me the knowledge of all that hath been. This thing is not from Me, but from One Who is Almighty and All-Knowing. And He bade Me lift up My voice between earth and heaven, and for this there befell Me what hath caused the tears of every man of understanding to flow.The learning current amongst men I studied not; their schools I entered not. Ask of the city wherein I dwelt, that thou mayest be well assured that I am not of them who speak falsely. This is but a leaf which the winds of the will of thy Lord, the Almighty, the All-Praised, have stirred.”” Proclamation of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 57

I think that evidence was shown later in this thread. Way back.
..........Juan Cole's writings.....basic Muslim education.... Bahauallah's wealthy family...... parent's wish for hafiz children.... it's all written down and shown earlier.

That was a 'doddle'.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I think that evidence was shown later in this thread. Way back.
..........Juan Cole's writings.....basic Muslim education.... Bahauallah's wealthy family...... parent's wish for hafiz children.... it's all written down and shown earlier.

That was a 'doddle'.

Considering nothing is published from the Persians of the time, showing Baha'u'llah did receive the education, that Baha'u'llah said he did not receive, I fail to see how anything has actually been proved as per the OP.

It would be good, if sometime evidence either way is found. Otherwise it is pointless to continue with what might have been available.

Regards Tony

 

[Trailblazer]

I think that evidence was shown later in this thread. Way back.
..........Juan Cole's writings.....basic Muslim education.... Bahauallah's wealthy family...... parent's wish for hafiz children.... it's all written down and shown earlier.

That was a 'doddle'.

Thanks, I only noticed this thread late last night, so I only read a few posts at the beginning and at the end. I will try to look through the thread when I have time.

Last night I told my husband about this and he pulled out a book entitled "Baha'u'llah: The King of Glory" by H.M. Balyuzi. It will probably have something about His education, as it is a big book.

 

[oldbadger]

Considering nothing is published from the Persians of the time, showing Baha'u'llah did receive the education, that Baha'u'llah said he did not receive, I fail to see how anything has actually been proved as per the OP.

It would be good, if sometime evidence either way is found. Otherwise it is pointless to continue with what might have been available.

Regards Tony

No Tony........ Oh, and this for @Trailblazer as well.... I promised to write to her.
You can cling to Bahauallah's claim if you wish..... for all you are worth, but for most folks the following facts might change their opinions.... who knows?

1. Muslim parents hope for their sons to be Hafiz. This would assure them of a place in heaven so it's fairly important to them.
2. Muslim children of very wealthy very influential parents received private tuition, Bahauallah's father would not have been any different, and since he bent over backwards for his son on occasions that we know about then it is unlikely that he ignored this child's education and welfare.
3. We know from the Bahai website that he did learn the Qu'ran, as well as riding, manners, shooting, the sword, poetry, map reading and more. So he was a lazy kid who desired no schooling, but he got it! Just read the Bahai description!

Here it is:-
Birth and Childhood of Baha'u'llah

Schooling
As He grew up, Bahá'u'lláh desired no schooling. He received a little customary education at home, in riding, using a sword or gun, good manners, calligraphy, poetries, and the ability to read out the words of the Qur'an.

 

[oldbadger]

Thanks, I only noticed this thread late last night, so I only read a few posts at the beginning and at the end. I will try to look through the thread when I have time.

Last night I told my husband about this and he pulled out a book entitled "Baha'u'llah: The King of Glory" by H.M. Balyuzi. It will probably have something about His education, as it is a big book.

My Goodness! You both must have quite a substantial library at home..... I am most impressed!

 

[Trailblazer]

My Goodness! You both must have quite a substantial library at home..... I am most impressed!

I don't have that many books of my own, but my husband has been a Baha'i for about 56 years and he collected all these books way back when, before we got married in 1985... I could spend the rest of my life reading all these books, and still never get finished!

 

[Trailblazer]

No Tony........ Oh, and this for @Trailblazer as well.... I promised to write to her.
Birth and Childhood of Baha'u'llah

Schooling
As He grew up, Bahá'u'lláh desired no schooling. He received a little customary education at home, in riding, using a sword or gun, good manners, calligraphy, poetries, and the ability to read out the words of the Qur'an.

But if He received a little customary education at home, that does not contradict what Baha'u'llah wrote about not entering schools:

"The learning current amongst men I studied not; their schools I entered not. Ask of the city wherein I dwelt, that thou mayest be well assured that I am not of them who speak falsely. This is but a leaf which the winds of the will of thy Lord, the Almighty, the All-Praised, have stirred.”” Proclamation of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 57

Also, we cannot assume He was lazy just because He desired no schooling, as there could haven been another reason.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

"See post #139," didn't address what I said in my post.

What you described is a conjecture.
You are saying, Bahaullah saw that show, then decided to learn a lot of things about religions. When and where, and from which sources according to history He learned all that?
Who was witness that Bahaullah was studying or going to school? Did His siblings see that? Did His close relatives or friends see that. We need proofs, not just conjectures.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Schooling
As He grew up, Bahá'u'lláh desired no schooling. He received a little customary education at home, in riding, using a sword or gun, good manners, calligraphy, poetries, and the ability to read out the words of the Qur'an.

OB, please, it is not in question about Baha'u'llah, that as he grew as a child, that he may have had schooling that was current at that time. This is not what Baha'u'llah was saying in the quote about His education, that is why this has and never will be used against him.

The education Baha'u'llah is talking about is the Higher education in religious studies, Baha'u'llah is telling the divines that you had years of schooling to learn the Quran and how is it that a mere child was able to refute your understandings and show new innovations in interpreting the Quran.

So, please do you see the point being made, Baha'u'llah did not go on to higher education an learn all he knew from an education, the knowledge was already available to him.

What you need to show is that after the age of let's say 15, that he was attending classes and schools dedicated to higher learning, classes specific to those that were to go on and be Islamic imam, qadi, mufti or mullah.

Wheras the recorded history we have is that by the age of 15, Baha'u'llah was already seen as an Authority in any subject people came to him about.

I think that is a fair and reasonable request. We know Baha'u'llah had childhood learning, it was the same with the Bab and if is also recorded what the Bab teachers said about him, that no one could teach such a gifted child.

The OP was asking can we prove Baha'u'llah had a Higher education? No we can not, as the key to knowing has been buried in Iranian History.

I can say over the years of study on Baha'i Faith, I have done a lot of net searches, but found very little to assist.

Regards Tony

 

[oldbadger]

But if He received a little customary education at home, that does not contradict what Baha'u'llah wrote about not entering schools:

But it was only customary to have private tuition in a rich family.
And as the Bahai library tells us:- He learned the ability to read out the words of the Qur'an.

"The learning current amongst men I studied not; their schools I entered not. Ask of the city wherein I dwelt, that thou mayest be well assured that I am not of them who speak falsely. This is but a leaf which the winds of the will of thy Lord, the Almighty, the All-Praised, have stirred.”” Proclamation of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 57

Indeed, none of them knew Bahauallah at school....... he was tutored at home.

Also, we cannot assume He was lazy just because He desired no schooling, as there could haven been another reason.

He needed no schooling..... he was tutored....... at home!

 

[oldbadger]

OB, please, it is not in question about Baha'u'llah, that as he grew as a child, that he may have had schooling that was current at that time. This is not what Baha'u'llah was saying in the quote about His education, that is why this has and never will be used against him.

The education Baha'u'llah is talking about is the Higher education in religious studies, Baha'u'llah is telling the divines that you had years of schooling to learn the Quran and how is it that a mere child was able to refute your understandings and show new innovations in interpreting the Quran.

So, please do you see the point being made, Baha'u'llah did not go on to higher education an learn all he knew from an education, the knowledge was already available to him.

...............................................
Regards Tony

But members here are telling us that he made mistakes about or over the Qu'ran.

Sadly Tony I have to admit that this is just another Bahai miracle claim that I must file in the bin.

All the best,
Oldbadger

 

[night912]

What you described is a conjecture.
You are saying, Bahaullah saw that show, then decided to learn a lot of things about religions. When and where, and from which sources according to history He learned all that?
Who was witness that Bahaullah was studying or going to school? Did His siblings see that? Did His close relatives or friends see that. We need proofs, not just conjectures.

Did his siblings see him eat? Did his close relatives or friends see that? Not every thing from a person's life is documented. But if you want proof, you already provided the proofs and acknowledged that he was educated in it. And "education" doesn't mean that one has to go to a school. Bahá’u’lláh got his education from him studying what is in bold from your post below.

".Bahá’u’lláh led a princely life as a young man, receiving an education that focused largely on calligraphy, horsemanship, classic poetry, and swordsmanship.

So there you have it. Historical proof of his education regarding religion and his ability to understand and write in Arabic.

Here's a quote attributed to Samuel Clemmons.

"I have never let schooling interfere with my education."

 

[TransmutingSoul]

But members here are telling us that he made mistakes about or over the Qu'ran.

Sadly Tony I have to admit that this is just another Bahai miracle claim that I must file in the bin.

All the best,
Oldbadger

That is what they said about Muhammad. Thus there is valid replies to all those accusations, as Baha'u'llah met the challenge to produce works like the Quran.

Regards Tony

 

[night912]

Considering nothing is published from the Persians of the time, showing Baha'u'llah did receive the education, that Baha'u'llah said he did not receive, I fail to see how anything has actually been proved as per the OP.

He never claimed anything about his education. His claim about never attending school is a possibility and CAN be taken as being true, because it's possible that he got his education outside of school.

Here's a quote attributed to Samuel Clemmons.

"I have never let schooling interfere with my education."

Samuel Clemmons stopped going to school after he turned 11. So where did he get his education that earned him as an honorary doctorate in letters from a prestigious school, Oxford University?