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Is it possible to investigate Bahaullah's claim?

InvestigateTruth

Well-Known Member
I would suggest that in an Islamic society He would be exposed to common Islamic traditions since birth.

I lived in Islamic society. No, i don't think people get much exposed to hadithes, Quran and Bible. Maybe very few hadithes through out years, unless you go to special school to learn Islam for some years.

If it was possible to have a good grasp of theology by just getting exposed, why then people go to special schools to learn it?

When we read Book of Iqan, it contains many hadithes, verses of Quran, and Bible and contains interpretations which weren't current among people.

Not everything a person does gets recorded by history, for example can we say that Baha'u'llah didn't poop just because it isn't mentioned how many times a day He pooped?
In those days, going to school or learning theology was important. So, it would have been recorded.


Now kindly answer my question.
What about when Baha'u'llah got it wrong?
I am not aware of Bahaullah getting anything wrong. Did you see the conversation in the thread you sent me?
 

danieldemol

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
I am not aware of Bahaullah getting anything wrong. Did you see the conversation in the thread you sent me?
Yeah it basically consisted of a claim you'd answered it in a DIR with no link, and some broken links to Persian websites.

Personally if I was asked a question in english I would have endeavoured to comprehensively and directly answer in the same, but perhaps making access to information easy isn't your style
 

InvestigateTruth

Well-Known Member
Yeah it basically consisted of a claim you'd answered it in a DIR with no link, and some broken links to Persian websites.

Personally if I was asked a question in english I would have endeavoured to comprehensively and directly answer in the same, but perhaps making access to information easy isn't your style
the link used the work.
The link went to the shia collection hadith book, having the hadith Bahaullah was referring. Now the link broken.
 

danieldemol

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
the link used the work.
The link went to the shia collection hadith book, having the hadith Bahaullah was referring. Now the link broken.
I've been doing some digging, and an unexpected gem came up, perhaps if @Sen McGlinn could shed some light on his claim, "We can even look as far as Tehran, since Baha’u’llah was reading the Arabic works of Majlisi even in his childhood."1

For those unfamiliar with Majlesi, "Baha’u’llah gives his source as the Behar al-Anwar, a huge compilation of mainly Shiah traditions, the life work of Mohammad-Baqer Majlesi, who died around 1700. The Behar became a standard work of Shiah scholarship, especially in the 19th century."

1 A Book similar to the Quran

So if Baha'u'llah read works of Majlesi since childhood it provides a potential source of Baha’u’llah's acquiring of tradition
 
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danieldemol

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
the link used the work.
The link went to the shia collection hadith book, having the hadith Bahaullah was referring. Now the link broken.
I found this Questions regarding the Book of Iqan

In it you simply assert that Baha'u'llah's traditions are in Bihar al Anwar in separated form not as one tradition, but fail to provide these traditions, particularly the last and most critical one about a book similar to the Quran
 

SeekerOnThePath

On a mountain between Nietzsche and Islam
I found this Questions regarding the Book of Iqan

In it you simply assert that Baha'u'llah's traditions are in Bihar al Anwar in separated form not as one tradition, but fail to provide these traditions, particularly the last and most critical one about a book similar to the Quran

Imam Ja'far al-Sadiq has said: "When al-Qa'im emerges he will come with a new commission, a new book, a new conduct and a new judgement, which will be strenuous for the Arabs. His work is nothing but to fight, and no one [among the disbelievers] will be spared. He will not be afraid of any blame in the execution of his duty."
(Ithbat al-hudat, Vol. 7 p. 83)

Imam Ja'far al-Sadiq (as) has said:

“When al-Qa'im appears, he will invite the people to a new mission as the Prophet (S) has invited the people to a new mission. Islam has begun strange and it will return strange as it has begun. Blessed are the strangers!”
(Biharul Anwar, vol.52 p.366, Mo’jam Ahadeeth al-Imam al-Mahdi, vol.3 p.319)

None of these can be taken as automatically authentic, nor at face value. It requires further study of the transmission of such Hadith, of course.

One controversial thing quoted in some Shia Hadith (which are not believed by all Shia) is that the Qa'im will bring the full Qur'an. Some interpret it to suggest a form of Tahrif, but seeing they're Shia Hadith, it moreso points towards the notion of the singularity point which the Qa'im represents between the eSoteric (Batin) aspect of the Revelation of the Qur'an being unified back with the eXoteric (Zahir) aspect of the Revelation of the Qur'an, within the person of the Qa'im which initiates the Day of Judgement (Qiyamah).



Chapter 14: The Signs of the Appearance (Zuhur) of the Mahdi
etc
 

SeekerOnThePath

On a mountain between Nietzsche and Islam
Imam Ja'far al-Sadiq has said: "When al-Qa'im emerges he will come with a new commission, a new book, a new conduct and a new judgement, which will be strenuous for the Arabs. His work is nothing but to fight, and no one [among the disbelievers] will be spared. He will not be afraid of any blame in the execution of his duty."
(Ithbat al-hudat, Vol. 7 p. 83)

Imam Ja'far al-Sadiq (as) has said:

“When al-Qa'im appears, he will invite the people to a new mission as the Prophet (S) has invited the people to a new mission. Islam has begun strange and it will return strange as it has begun. Blessed are the strangers!”
(Biharul Anwar, vol.52 p.366, Mo’jam Ahadeeth al-Imam al-Mahdi, vol.3 p.319)

None of these can be taken as automatically authentic, nor at face value. It requires further study of the transmission of such Hadith, of course.

One controversial thing quoted in some Shia Hadith (which are not believed by all Shia) is that the Qa'im will bring the full Qur'an. Some interpret it to suggest a form of Tahrif, but seeing they're Shia Hadith, it moreso points towards the notion of the singularity point which the Qa'im represents between the eSoteric (Batin) aspect of the Revelation of the Qur'an being unified back with the eXoteric (Zahir) aspect of the Revelation of the Qur'an, within the person of the Qa'im which initiates the Day of Judgement (Qiyamah).



Chapter 14: The Signs of the Appearance (Zuhur) of the Mahdi
etc

And another problem there obviously is if such Hadith are authentic, then Baha'u'llah must also be wrong, since Baha'u'llah contradicts both The Bab and Twelver Shi'ism over the topic of the Mahdi/Qa'im.
If you haven't realized already, Baha'u'llah takes a Sunni view of the Mahdi in order to jump around the many errors that appear out of Baha'u'llah's claims in contrast to such prophecies. Baha'u'llah would rather skip having to tackle all those problems all-together, so he basically doubles down on the issue he created for himself by contradicting the teachings of the Bayan and denying the traditional Twelver Shi'ite view of the Qa'im completely.
 

danieldemol

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Imam Ja'far al-Sadiq has said: "When al-Qa'im emerges he will come with a new commission, a new book, a new conduct and a new judgement, which will be strenuous for the Arabs. His work is nothing but to fight, and no one [among the disbelievers] will be spared. He will not be afraid of any blame in the execution of his duty."
(Ithbat al-hudat, Vol. 7 p. 83)

Imam Ja'far al-Sadiq (as) has said:

“When al-Qa'im appears, he will invite the people to a new mission as the Prophet (S) has invited the people to a new mission. Islam has begun strange and it will return strange as it has begun. Blessed are the strangers!”
(Biharul Anwar, vol.52 p.366, Mo’jam Ahadeeth al-Imam al-Mahdi, vol.3 p.319)

None of these can be taken as automatically authentic, nor at face value. It requires further study of the transmission of such Hadith, of course.

One controversial thing quoted in some Shia Hadith (which are not believed by all Shia) is that the Qa'im will bring the full Qur'an. Some interpret it to suggest a form of Tahrif, but seeing they're Shia Hadith, it moreso points towards the notion of the singularity point which the Qa'im represents between the eSoteric (Batin) aspect of the Revelation of the Qur'an being unified back with the eXoteric (Zahir) aspect of the Revelation of the Qur'an, within the person of the Qa'im which initiates the Day of Judgement (Qiyamah).



Chapter 14: The Signs of the Appearance (Zuhur) of the Mahdi
etc
Thanks for the information, but if you follow the claim in the link in post 116 which @InvestigateTruth 's DIR post appears to be responding to, it says;

"In the “Bihar” it is recorded: In our Qa’im there shall be four signs from four Prophets, Moses, Jesus, Joseph, and Muhammad. The sign from Moses, is fear and expectation; from Jesus, that which was spoken of Him; from Joseph, imprisonment and dissimulation; from Muhammad, the revelation of a Book similar to the Qur’an." (Baha’u’llah, The Kitab-i-Iqan, p. 254)

So according to my understanding your quotation of what appears to be a separate book - Ithbat al-hudat is irrelevant to Baha'u'llah's claim as an allegedly infallible Manifestation that this tradition occurs in the book Bihar.
 

SeekerOnThePath

On a mountain between Nietzsche and Islam
Thanks for the information, but if you follow the claim in the link in post 116 which @InvestigateTruth 's DIR post appears to be responding to, it says;

"In the “Bihar” it is recorded: In our Qa’im there shall be four signs from four Prophets, Moses, Jesus, Joseph, and Muhammad. The sign from Moses, is fear and expectation; from Jesus, that which was spoken of Him; from Joseph, imprisonment and dissimulation; from Muhammad, the revelation of a Book similar to the Qur’an." (Baha’u’llah, The Kitab-i-Iqan, p. 254)

So according to my understanding your quotation of what appears to be a separate book - Ithbat al-hudat is irrelevant to Baha'u'llah's claim as an allegedly infallible Manifestation that this tradition occurs in the book Bihar.

Yes, fair enough. I'll try looking through Bihar al-Anwar to see if I can track anything down....

Plus, the (as of yet unfound) Hadith that he's referencing, is speaking about the Qa'im, not the "return of Jesus/Isa" of which Baha'u'llah claims to be later on. Nowhere are there Hadith that claim that Jesus comes back with a new book.
So, quoting such a Hadith only has (if proven authentic), at best, valid supporting evidence for The Bab, but not for Baha'u'llah - of whom has to justify himself in response to The Babi/Bayani dispensation (which makes claims contrary to his own).
It's a bit of a mess honestly.
 

SeekerOnThePath

On a mountain between Nietzsche and Islam
Thanks for the information, but if you follow the claim in the link in post 116 which @InvestigateTruth 's DIR post appears to be responding to, it says;

"In the “Bihar” it is recorded: In our Qa’im there shall be four signs from four Prophets, Moses, Jesus, Joseph, and Muhammad. The sign from Moses, is fear and expectation; from Jesus, that which was spoken of Him; from Joseph, imprisonment and dissimulation; from Muhammad, the revelation of a Book similar to the Qur’an." (Baha’u’llah, The Kitab-i-Iqan, p. 254)

So according to my understanding your quotation of what appears to be a separate book - Ithbat al-hudat is irrelevant to Baha'u'llah's claim as an allegedly infallible Manifestation that this tradition occurs in the book Bihar.

Well the only thing I found was this, in the three volumes on the Mahdi.

Bihar al-Anwar, vol 53 chapter 36, Hadith 81:​

It is narrated from the same chains directly from Abu Basir from Imam
Muhammad Baqir (a.s.) that he said in a lengthy tradition:

“Imam Qaim (a.s.) will address his men: O people, these Meccans are not
willing to submit, but I will send an envoy to them to exhaust the argument on
them. Then he will call one of his men and say: Go to the Meccans and say: I
am the envoy of so-and-so who says: I am the Ahle Bayt of mercy and the
mine of prophethood and caliphate. I am the essence of the progeny of
Muhammad and other prophets. Since our Holy Prophet (s.a.w.s.) passed
away, we have been continuously oppressed. We have been suppressed and
our rights were trespassed. We seek help from you, please help us.
When the envoy conveys this message, they will apprehend and slaughter
him between Rukn and Maqam and he is the same Nafse Zakiyya. When this
news reaches Imam Qaim (a.s.) he would tell his men "Did I not say that these
Meccans will not accept us?"
Then he would take 313 men and descend from
the Tawa pass and reach the Sacred Mosque. He will pray four units of
prayers at Maqam Ibrahim and then leaning on Hajar Aswad, would praise
and glorify the Almighty. He will mention the name of the Messenger of
Allah (s.a.w.s.) and invoke blessings on him. Then he would deliver a sermon
none has delivered before.
After this sermon, the first to pledge allegiance to him would be Jibraeel
followed by Mikaeel. And along with them the Messenger of Allah (s.a.w.s.)
and Amirul Momineen (a.s.) will also arise. The Holy Prophet (s.a.w.s.)
would give a new book to Imam Qaim (a.s.), which would be very tough on
the Arabs and it would bear a fresh seal. He will say to the Qaim: Act
according to whatever is mentioned therein. Then 300 of his men and some
people from Mecca will pledge allegiance to him.
When he sets out from Mecca, he would be within a circle.
I asked: What is a circle?
He replied: It would consist of ten thousand men. Jibraeel will be on the
right and Mikaeel on the left. Then he would wave his majestic standard. It
would be the standard of the Holy Prophet (s.a.w.s.) and which is named
Sahaba. He would wear the coat of mail and tie up the Zulfiqar to his waist.”
It is mentioned in another traditional report that some people from every
city will accompany him except from Basra.


Most Hadith about the Mahdi/Qa'im which mention a book usually explicitly mention the Qur'an, not something else. So it means we're either in A) esoteric territory dealing not with a literal new book, or B) dealing with weak Hadith.

Either way, as a Shi'ite, I find that Hadith incredibly fascinating for a few other reasons aside the mention of the supposed "new book", it's a curious hadith that relates back to many important Shi'ite notions.
It tells though, when Baha'i'ism chooses to ignore so many important Shi'ite notions and symbols. Baha'u'llah mentions Imam Husayn a lot, sure, but that's about it.

I'll keep looking for more...
 

SeekerOnThePath

On a mountain between Nietzsche and Islam
Thanks for the information, but if you follow the claim in the link in post 116 which @InvestigateTruth 's DIR post appears to be responding to, it says;

"In the “Bihar” it is recorded: In our Qa’im there shall be four signs from four Prophets, Moses, Jesus, Joseph, and Muhammad. The sign from Moses, is fear and expectation; from Jesus, that which was spoken of Him; from Joseph, imprisonment and dissimulation; from Muhammad, the revelation of a Book similar to the Qur’an." (Baha’u’llah, The Kitab-i-Iqan, p. 254)

So according to my understanding your quotation of what appears to be a separate book - Ithbat al-hudat is irrelevant to Baha'u'llah's claim as an allegedly infallible Manifestation that this tradition occurs in the book Bihar.

So yeah, there is no Hadith with that in it, in Bihar al-Anwar.

It does appear that it may be somewhere in Al-Awalim Fil Hadith though, but like Bihar it's a very long Hadith collection of 100 volumes.

There are various Hadith in Bihar al-Anwar that give inference, but this "quotation" by Baha'u'llah in Kitab-i-iqan is (if not a fabricated mix of various fragments of Hadith together into his own composition) simply an outright fabrication.

Basically the Hadith itself that Baha'u'llah is claiming to quote, doesn't exist, even if some fragments contained in his "quotation" are vaguely in other separate ahadith.
 

InvestigateTruth

Well-Known Member
I've been doing some digging, and an unexpected gem came up, perhaps if @Sen McGlinn could shed some light on his claim, "We can even look as far as Tehran, since Baha’u’llah was reading the Arabic works of Majlisi even in his childhood."1

For those unfamiliar with Majlesi, "Baha’u’llah gives his source as the Behar al-Anwar, a huge compilation of mainly Shiah traditions, the life work of Mohammad-Baqer Majlesi, who died around 1700. The Behar became a standard work of Shiah scholarship, especially in the 19th century."

1 A Book similar to the Quran

So if Baha'u'llah read works of Majlesi since childhood it provides a potential source of Baha’u’llah's acquiring of tradition

In one of His tablets Baha’u’llah said when He was a child He read a story in the book called Biharulanwar.
He did not say He was reading these books often in childhood. It was in a particular instance.
 

InvestigateTruth

Well-Known Member
I found this Questions regarding the Book of Iqan

In it you simply assert that Baha'u'llah's traditions are in Bihar al Anwar in separated form not as one tradition, but fail to provide these traditions, particularly the last and most critical one about a book similar to the Quran
Due to my limited time, I wouldn't be able to quote.
You can download vol 51-53, English translation of Biharulanwar for free.

But all of it, are in Biharulanwar.
Only difference is the last part of the Hadith, which says, the Qaim will have a sword like, sword of Muhammad. Bahaullah substitute the last part with His own interpretation, saying, Qaim has Book like Book of Muhammad. Bahaullah's intention was not to just quote a hadith, but also, wherever it requires metaphorical interpretation, provided its interpretation. In this case, sword is word of God, or The Book.
 

InvestigateTruth

Well-Known Member
Thanks for the information, but if you follow the claim in the link in post 116 which @InvestigateTruth 's DIR post appears to be responding to, it says;

"In the “Bihar” it is recorded: In our Qa’im there shall be four signs from four Prophets, Moses, Jesus, Joseph, and Muhammad. The sign from Moses, is fear and expectation; from Jesus, that which was spoken of Him; from Joseph, imprisonment and dissimulation; from Muhammad, the revelation of a Book similar to the Qur’an." (Baha’u’llah, The Kitab-i-Iqan, p. 254)

So according to my understanding your quotation of what appears to be a separate book - Ithbat al-hudat is irrelevant to Baha'u'llah's claim as an allegedly infallible Manifestation that this tradition occurs in the book Bihar.
The point here is made, is Bahaullah did not make mistakes. He was able to fully remember hadithes, and
Quran, word by word in Arabic, which by the way was not His mother tongue, and had no substantial training in.
In certain hadithes, He chose to substitute a portion of it, with His own interpretation.
Whether or not He had authority to substitute some words of hadithes with His own interpretation, is another issue. It depends if He is Manifestation of God or not.

But going back to OP, the question is, where He got this knowledge from?
 

Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
Wishful thinking....... ?
It's the definition of infallible. If you're infallible, you simply can't be wrong. I sure hope he had a good sense of navigating, as people following his directions would have walked further than they had to. At least if the carriage broke down, he could just go fix it. No need to bring in an expert. So too with anything medical. He knew what to do.
 

danieldemol

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Bahaullah's intention was not to just quote a hadith, but also, wherever it requires metaphorical interpretation, provided its interpretation. In this case, sword is word of God, or The Book.
Baha'u'llah does not say "it is recorded words to the effect of" or "it is recorded words meaning", that is just your mental gymnastics to hold onto a faith you are overly emotionally invested in.
 

InvestigateTruth

Well-Known Member
Baha'u'llah does not say "it is recorded words to the effect of" or "it is recorded words the meaning", that is just your mental gymnastics to hold onto a faith you are overly emotionally invested in.
He could just mean that without saying that. It doesn't make any difference if His intention is just to teach.

I would say, what is more important or critical to consider, is, if Bahaullah has knowledge of the essence of the hadithes or the Quran, rather than to literally just copy and paste.
 
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InvestigateTruth

Well-Known Member
Told by who?

According to history. This is about the 19th century Persia:


"Simultaneous with the rise of the Qajars to a central political power, and almost
parallel to their establishment, a new breed of the ^ulama emerged in the form of
an 'orthodoxy' with a consistent doctrine and specific social and political
characteristics. These two processes, the development of the religious authority
and secular power, were in many ways complementary to each other. The Qajars
consolidated their position in the urban centres by means of a military and
administrative presence, while the 'ulama strengthened their stand by exerting a
religious authority which they considered to be their prime function."

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...FjAFegQICRAB&usg=AOvVaw0WdYLhSLQC8z5cweqSJWzX



And Here is also about life of Bahaullah:



".Bahá’u’lláh led a princely life as a young man, receiving an education that focused largely on calligraphy, horsemanship, classic poetry, and swordsmanship.
.....

According to the custom of that time, as the son of an influential government official, Bahá’u’lláh did not receive a formal education. Yet by the time He was fourteen, he became known for His learning. He would converse on any subject and solve any problem presented to him. In large gatherings he would explain intricate religious questions to the ulama (the leading religious figures in Islam), and they listened with great interest."

The childhood of Bahá’u’lláh - The Life of Bahá'u'lláh




According to above references, Bahaullah belonged to the secular class related to government and nobles, who were trained more in military such as horsemanship and swordsmanship. Ulama, who were the Religious groups focused on theology. These two groups, nobles and ulama, were complementary and each focused on their own function.

@firedragon above info might be an interest to you as well.
 
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night912

Well-Known Member
The Question is: Is it possible to investigate this subject through available historical sources, and any other methods to come to a concrete conclusion if Bahaullah did not have any human learning in the subject of religions in particular? If possibly He had any education, how much was it, and what subject and at what level exactly?

Are there enough historical resources or anything else available to us to know if, indeed Bahaullah had not studied subjects of religions?
Yes it is possible to investigate through historical sources that Bahaullah did in fact, studied in the subject of religions and resulted in his knowledge of Arabic. He was afterall, a member of nobility and was with in practice of that era, had education in those subjects. Many of the themes that are studied, can be seen in his religious teachings, such as, manifestation of God and/or God's grace, self knowledge, all are of one people/race, the equality of religion as being "all" true, the capability of humanity achieving higher divinity, helping the poor, etc. Part of the teachings was about the idea of the student and devotion to the teacher. So it wasn't anything like a 3 month course, but a long term study course. And it's not out of the ordinary for someone at a young age to have a life inspiring moment and decide to gain as much knowledge and understanding of a particular subject. For Bahaullah, it was a puppet show.
 
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