Is it just me, or..

[Erebus]

But just because a guy is more on the quiet side and wants a relationship other than sex doesnt mean he doesnt LOVE sex and can be great in bed.

If you ask me its more likely that the 'sensitive" guy ..the respectful guy is more likely in fact to be concerend with the woman in bed as well. :flirt: In regards to her pleasure specifically..

Love

Dallas

(its the quiet ones with the loud music inside..)

Oh I'm not saying he isn't interested in sex at all! I'm saying he's generally the one to go for a relationship with (sex being a part of that relationship generally speaking). The loud guy will often ONLY be worth one night of sex. Neither is a good or bad choice, it just depends on what you're after really

Actually I have a theory. In many cases, a woman is so blind sided by what is happening from guys like this they end up in bed without and real thought of it. I think it has little to do with physical attraction often times.

Of course alcohol completely changes the situation, than it is a mild form of rape IMO. Girls have to make decisions so quickly and from such aggressive men sometimes, they get confused and just go with the flow. Guys know this and hope and prey for this often times, which is why I equate it with a mild form of rape.

Sadly in our day and age, this type of behavior has become so common place, people don't pay much attention to it

I wouldn't really equate it with rape personally, I myself have avoided sleeping with certain people regardless of how drunk I've been and on the odd mistakes I've made, I would never consider myself to have been "raped" in any way.
I don't think much of meaningless sex, I consider it to be little more than masturbation with another person (if you see where I'm coming from?). I don't think it's particularly wrong or immoral though, I just don't often go for it myself.

*edit* I've also found that physical attraction is often far less important to women than it is to men. The most physically attractive guy in the world can struggle with women if he doesn't have the proper attitude.

 

[dust1n]

Fathers are ****** role models for their daughters?

 

[Mr Cheese]

Fathers are ****** role models for their daughters?

Daddy's little Girl aint a girl no more...

--Kurt Cobain

 

[Father Heathen]

Okay, I know I'm going to have a hard time trying to put my point to words but here it goes. Guys can be assertive and confident and still treat women with dignity and respect. That's not what I'm talking about. What I'm talking about are the guys who are blatantly misogynistic, disrespectful and abusive towards women (such as women beaters and rapists) and yet are seemingly still popular with the ladies. I could understand someone who is young and naive perhaps mistaking egoism and aggression as confidence and assertiveness, but I've known quite a few girls who despite having had really horrible experiences with such men still returning to and dating that type time and time again (often resulting in aforementioned experiences happening time and time again). Is it some sort of masochistic stockholm syndrome going on or what? Of course they eventually go on to blame the entire male sex rather than their own lack of taste and standards.

 

[Father Heathen]

rape?

oh please....

:sarcastic next you'll be saying those women that go out, get intoxicated
find a man..are commiting rape....albeit a mild form

I think taking advantage of someone who is drunk (and thus not in a clear state of mind to give informed consent) while you yourself are sober is indeed rape.

 

[Lindsey-Loo]

Okay, I know I'm going to have a hard time trying to put my point to words but here it goes. Guys can be assertive and confident and still treat women with dignity and respect. That's not what I'm talking about. What I'm talking about are the guys who are blatantly misogynistic, disrespectful and abusive towards women (such as women beaters and rapists) and yet are seemingly still popular with the ladies. I could understand someone who is young and naive perhaps mistaking egoism and aggression as confidence and assertiveness, but I've known quite a few girls who despite having had really horrible experiences with such men still returning to and dating that type time and time again (often resulting in aforementioned experiences happening time and time again). Is it some sort of masochistic stockholm syndrome going on or what? Of course they eventually go on to blame the entire male sex rather than their own lack of taste and standards.

Coming from previous experiences, I think that some women feel like they are not worthy of something better. She's in a really bad spot in her life, so she dates a guy who is disrespectful and abusive because she has so little self-confidence, that's the best she thinks she can do. And even if a kind and respectful man approaches her, she will probably think she's not good enough for him so she doesn't encourage him. That was my attitude towards dating for a long while. And yes, she does end up blaming the entire male sex, until a nice guy comes along, refuses to give up on her, and she realizes that she can do a lot better and DESERVES a lot better afterall.

 

[Erebus]

Okay, I know I'm going to have a hard time trying to put my point to words but here it goes. Guys can be assertive and confident and still treat women with dignity and respect. That's not what I'm talking about. What I'm talking about are the guys who are blatantly misogynistic, disrespectful and abusive towards women (such as women beaters and rapists) and yet are seemingly still popular with the ladies. I could understand someone who is young and naive perhaps mistaking egoism and aggression as confidence and assertiveness, but I've known quite a few girls who despite having had really horrible experiences with such men still returning to and dating that type time and time again (often resulting in aforementioned experiences happening time and time again). Is it some sort of masochistic stockholm syndrome going on or what? Of course they eventually go on to blame the entire male sex rather than their own lack of taste and standards.

Dignity and respect loses it's value when offered freely. It's human instinct to value anything scarce and to value something earned more than something given. A lot of truly awful men do well with women because they are not generous, they rarely tell women that they care and because they will jealously restrict their partner's life. This makes any scrap of generosity all the more valuable and all the more intoxicating.
Wife-beaters go one step ahead, they actually (consciously or not) condition their partners to respond to their desires. Humans love to consider themselves complex, deep and independent beings, but in truth they are just as easy to train as dogs. Anybody can be broken and rebuilt and abusive men combine the value of scarcity described above with the power of conditioning.

Some women grow out of going for jerks, some don't. Some jerks grow up too, some don't. Tragically, a lot of genuinely pleasant people (male and female) end up bitter and twisted through either abuse or through seeing that only cruel people get much out of life.

 

[Sunstone]

In my experience, women who prefer jerks are dealing with issues of their own.

 

[Father Heathen]

Dignity and respect loses it's value when offered freely.

I've always thought it was considered basic human decency to treat others with respect and dignity by default until they prove themselves otherwise unworthy. Are some women honestly turned off by this, seeing kindness as a weakness, etc?

a lot of genuinely pleasant people (male and female) end up bitter and twisted through either abuse or through seeing that only cruel people get much out of life.

That's the thing, the way our culture and society is it really does seem like the "bad guys" get all the success, rewards and perks. Which begs the question; what incentive is there really to be one of the "good guys"? Are honor and honesty outmoded?

 

[Sunstone]

I think one choses to be as decent as one can be -- which sometimes isn't all that decent -- for private and personal reasons that often have nothing to do with gaining a reward from others.

 

[Father Heathen]

I think one choses to be as decent as one can be -- which sometimes isn't all that decent -- for private and personal reasons that often have nothing to do with gaining a reward from others.

If someone has an ulterior motive for trying to be decent, respectful, honorable and honest, then they really aren't being decent, respectful honorable or honest.

 

[Father Heathen]

In my experience, women who prefer jerks are dealing with issues of their own.

And unfortunately while doing so compounds said issues while reinforcing the jerks' negative behavior.

 

[Erebus]

I've always thought it was considered basic human decency to treat others with respect and dignity by default until they prove themselves otherwise unworthy. Are some women honestly turned off by this, seeing kindness as a weakness, etc?

That's the thing, the way our culture and society is it really does seem like the "bad guys" get all the success, rewards and perks. Which begs the question; what incentive is there really to be one of the "good guys"? Are honor and honesty outmoded?

Interestingly enough kindness can be a turn off. I'll never forget "pulling" a girl in a bar only for her to later break down in tears apologising to me that she couldn't bring herself to sleep with me. I was pretty shocked, but I just said not to worry about it at which point she said something that really burned deep into me. She said, "You're too nice. I just wanted to be treated like a wh**e."
Considering I'd recently broken up with a girl for being "too much of a gentleman", that one cut deep. A month or so later my parents split up, because my mum had been having an affair. My dad worked hard and put his wife and kids before himself all the time, the guy she's now with is your typical council estate thug.

So yeah, being nice to people doesn't bring rewards. It doesn't even bring gratitude. Like I say, people have to be trained like dogs. It's a game of rod and carrot and any good deed is pointless if it doesn't somehow benefit you. I don't like it, but unfortunately people just don't respond to kindness, honour or decency, they aren't programmed to be that way. It's pretty much a choice of being subtle yet ruthless or dying lonely, forgotten and utterly unappreciated.

Got to love the way people work.

 

[Father Heathen]

Interestingly enough kindness can be a turn off. I'll never forget "pulling" a girl in a bar only for her to later break down in tears apologising to me that she couldn't bring herself to sleep with me. I was pretty shocked, but I just said not to worry about it at which point she said something that really burned deep into me. She said, "You're too nice. I just wanted to be treated like a wh**e."
Considering I'd recently broken up with a girl for being "too much of a gentleman", that one cut deep. A month or so later my parents split up, because my mum had been having an affair. My dad worked hard and put his wife and kids before himself all the time, the guy she's now with is your typical council estate thug.

So yeah, being nice to people doesn't bring rewards. It doesn't even bring gratitude. Like I say, people have to be trained like dogs. It's a game of rod and carrot and any good deed is pointless if it doesn't somehow benefit you. I don't like it, but unfortunately people just don't respond to kindness, honour or decency, they aren't programmed to be that way. It's pretty much a choice of being subtle yet ruthless or dying lonely, forgotten and utterly unappreciated.

Got to love the way people work.

Excellent insight. Thank you.

Edit: What do you suppose would make a woman want to be treated badly, and how being kind and gentlemanly came to be perceived as weak?

 

[Father Heathen]

Coming from previous experiences, I think that some women feel like they are not worthy of something better. She's in a really bad spot in her life, so she dates a guy who is disrespectful and abusive because she has so little self-confidence, that's the best she thinks she can do. And even if a kind and respectful man approaches her, she will probably think she's not good enough for him so she doesn't encourage him. That was my attitude towards dating for a long while. And yes, she does end up blaming the entire male sex, until a nice guy comes along, refuses to give up on her, and she realizes that she can do a lot better and DESERVES a lot better afterall.

While that's a very sweet fairytale ending, things often don't end that way. And when they do, there is still the resulting emotional/psychological issues to contend with. Another question is why do so many women end up with such a lack of self-esteem and of self-respect in the first place to willingly subject themselves to such abusive situations? And of course the vast majority of men who have shown a history of violence towards women get away clean with these things (rapes and beatings tend not to get reported) and thus their behavior is rewarded and reinforced, and so the cycle is repeated with the next victims all over again.

 

[Erebus]

What do you suppose would make a woman want to be treated badly, and how being kind and gentlemanly came to be perceived as weak?

I don't think it's perceived as weak, just "too easy". Did you ever hear that wolves can't fully satisfy their hunger? I don't know how true it is, but it makes sense, if they are always hungry they are always hunting and thus they increase their chances of survival. I think the same can be said of human desire. Just look at the top dogs in the world, the people with more money, power, sex etc etc than most of us can really comprehend, yet they keep on seeking to acquire more. We aren't happy with fulfilling a desire and then simply enjoying the results, we move on to look for something new.
A "nice guy" is himself the ultimate goal for a lot of women, but it's just not the same if he's already a nice guy, it has to be a chase and a struggle. With cruel men, the struggle never ends and women either mature and move on or they get stuck in a loop of desperately trying to appease and change a person who they can never change.
Men do a similar thing, but generally speaking they do it on a more superficial level, looking for somebody more attractive/better in bed no matter who they're with. Again, easy to acquire examples of this would be certain celebrity marriages where a husband cheats on or leaves an international sex symbol for somebody better.

Simply put, one of the traits that has made humans such a widespread race is that they are impossible to satisfy.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

While that's a very sweet fairytale ending, things often don't end that way. And when they do, there is still the resulting emotional/psychological issues to contend with. Another question is why do so many women end up with such a lack of self-esteem and of self-respect in the first place to willingly subject themselves to such abusive situations? And of course the vast majority of men who have shown a history of violence towards women get away clean with these things (rapes and beatings tend not to get reported) and thus their behavior is rewarded and reinforced, and so the cycle is repeated with the next victims all over again.

I think it's simply cyclical. People who are abused (psychologically, physically, sexually) as children, often grow up to be abusers and/or seek out abusive relationships. People do things which support their self-identity. If you have no respect for yourself, you will be more comfortable in relationships where you are not respected.

 

[whereismynotecard]

The womens are a sad species.

 

[Father Heathen]

The womens are a sad species.

The mens are also a sad species.

 

[The Voice of Reason]

In the short run, maybe. Women who don't pay attention close enough fall for men who look on the surface to be assertive and confident. Those who DO pay attention see pretty quickly if those are really traits of extreme narcissism.

Who you calling narcissistic?