Is it harmful to teach gay youths that homosexuality is a sin?

[Jeremiah]

The APA's website is a good starting point. They have all but denounced such practices because the evidence is very inconclusive on if they actually help or not. And no, repressing your sexual urges is not being "cured." And yes, there have been so many anti-gay crusaders who try to "cure" people who end up being exposed for being gay it hardly attracts any media attention. The last one, when the co-founder of NARTH was outed, it only caught attention because his male escort played a part in outing him, and because NARTH is one of the leading anti-gay organizations who crusade under the banner of psychology and psychiatry. You will notice on their site though, that there are not any leading or credible psychological organizations that endorse NARTH. That is because what they are doing does not have any scientific backing. Sexual orientation doesn't change.
Myself (back when I was a very devoted Baptist), I prayed and prayed and prayed for God to "cure" me, and that when I woke up the next morning I wouldn't want to be a girl anymore, or wouldn't have a constant curiosity about being sexual with other men. Well, either God didn't hear me, he didn't care, or it was nothing that needed to be fixed.


I agree. Attacking one's grammar is a low blow.

"I agree. Attacking one's grammar is a low blow."

He got what he gave.

 

[Wicked Witch]

I think that it is unquestionably harmful to teach children that homosexuality is an abomination. An adult who is secure in their sexuality may not care about other people's scorn as much, but being shunned by their family and friends for being gay can be very depressing.

 

[Jeremiah]

Really, WOW attacking my grammer! is that really the best you can do?

I criticize your lack of effort. The Microsoft Paperclip could do a better job. Web browsers have spell-checkers built right into them. Google is the most extensive and easy to use dictionary the world has ever seen. Trouble with grammar is no longer an excuse; you are just being lazy.

 

[Smoke]

Well, I was referring Jesus' tendency to steer clear of hypocrites

It's amazing. When he was alive, his personal relationships weren't with hypocrites, but since he's died, he's been friends with hardly anybody else.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

It's amazing. When he was alive, his personal relationships weren't with hypocrites, but since he's died, he's been friends with hardly anybody else.

I would give you frubals, because those words are very true, but I have to frubal some more people first.

 

[sojourner]

How is that a problem solved? She might have been kept out of the limelight had she joined the ministry!

A fat, loud woman with an opinion? Are you kidding?! She would've been right up there with Tammy Fay!riest:

 

[sojourner]

You might be right, Christ was well known for seeking out those who needed him most and the gay/lesbian community has great need of his council and direction that they might see their error and begin to keep his commandments - ALL of them that they too might prove worthy to live in the presence of God.

Come on! You know that's not what she meant! Stop twisting things. First off, Jesus was concerned for the outcast and advocated for hospitality. In fact, the whole thrust of Matthew's gospel is that you just can't tell the "good" from the "bad," so why waste time trying to make a distinction? You include everyone and let God sort out the details.

Second, "keeping all the commandments" is clearly not a Xian injunction. "Grace" means that God reconciles us because we cannot "become" worthy ourselves.

 

[sojourner]

I would give you frubals, because those words are very true, but I have to frubal some more people first.

I fruballed him for you. That was frickin' well-said!:clap

 

[Jeremiah]

I don't think merely telling your children that something is a sin, even if its part of who they are, would lead to suicide. I mean sure it would not be a good thing to hear at all, but its not necessarily negative, especially when you consider that those who say so to their children, believe that it is a sin to be a homosexual or to satisfy those sexual needs. So for them and their children (if they both follow the same faith which view homosexuality like that), the first step to overcoming that, would be for their children to understand that. So, at worst it would be something negative, that bothers him/her, but i don't think it would lead to suicide. If the youth do not agree with his parents that homosexuality is a sin, and do not follow their beliefs or agree with them. The harm here would be his knowledge that his parents do not approve of something that is a part of him, which would be quite negative, but i don't think it would lead to suicide. (assuming the parents didn't express any ill-feelings, anger or any kind of excessive feelings on the matter).

I think what would lead to so, is the extra trimmings that people like to add when they state their view of homosexuality, and how bad it is in their eyes. When that is said to the youth in such a negative way, it sure would be destructive, and would very possibly lead to suicide. In other words what i think would be harmful and would cause serious damage is the excessive and uncalled for degradation that is sometimes displayed when people state their view of it. But if merely told that it is a sin, i don't think thats destructive or harmful.

It's the confusion; remember these are youths we are talking about, not adults. Many do not have the worldliness to believe anything other then what they are told. They need to be exposed to the alternative idea that it is OK, because they will not always think of it on their own. Their naivety compounds the problem, their body is going through many changes, they are feelings things they've never had to deal with before. And while this is true of all youths, it is the LGBT youths who are left with little exposure to eduction on their sexuality. What they are exposed to, all to often, comes from a narrow-minded and ignorant source.

 

[Jeremiah]

man, this thread has got some of you talking real sassy. it's really kinda cute.

i think for the sake of everyone's personal sanity that we should quit using the word "bigot" for the rest of the thread. at this point i cant tell who's a bigot. i've got a turkey sandwich next to me right now and all because of this thread i just want to yell at it and call it a bigot.

as far as the OP is concerned (if anybody remembers what it was about) of course it's harmful to tell someone that a part of them is wrong. black kids are groomed to act more white all the time, smart kids forced to forgo studies in order to keep up in sports, skeptical kids dragged to church on sundays... etc. and yes, when my mother was in catholic school they would beat her knuckles til they bled in order to teach her NOT to be left handed because they viewed her inconsistency as a rebellion from god. ugh. parents are responsible for teaching their children to be themselves and to be comfortable in their own skin, the public is responsible for staying the hell out of parent's business and never telling anybody else's kid that they aren't good enough. and bullies are responsible for making everyone's life worse, because they probably get told they aren't good enough by their own parents. of course it is harmful to teach LGBT kids that they should be something they aren't, but unfortunately it's going to be another decade or so before it's realistic to assume that they will never hear the "god hates queers" message. so we're going to have to be creative in our response to it.

but the entire argument is based on a false dichotomy. this might not be a popular interpretation of the data, but it is consistent with the data; there is no such thing as homosexual or heterosexual. we're all on varying scales of bisexuality. whenever somebody tells me "i like girls", i ask them "all of them?". no matter what your sexual orientation, there are a lot more details that are specifically important when it comes to sexual attraction. someone may have a tendency toward sexual attraction to females, yet they typically only have an attraction to females of a certain age group, with certain similar physical features, with certain emotional tendencies and with certain preferences of their own. there's more to sex than gender. and in all of these categories there are spectral ranges of preferences, they are not black and white. maybe if our kids learned that they aren't really all that different from everyone else just because they happen to fall a few clicks closer to the male attraction than most of their peers, they wouldn't feel alienated.
although this thinking really puts a rock in the shoe of many church groups. if fred phelps found out he was only a few dash-lines on a spectrum from being homosexual he might have a heart attack (what a shame that would be).

understand that i'm not saying that for social reasons "homosexual" and "heterosexual" are not useful terms, but as far as set-in-stone scientific terms, they are just not broad enough to be considered realistic. being proud of who you are and pursuing relationships with those you have attraction for (and, if you so choose, being afforded every legal right to have that union recognized by the state) is very valuable and should be afforded to all people, especially our children as they explore exactly who they are and who they want to be sexually intimate with.



or maybe our ears are just ringing because we've heard the same exact garbage a thousand frakking times and we wish you would just come up with something we haven't heard before so we can stop scratching our eyes out for five seconds.
welcome to the forum!

"but it is consistent with the data"

I would like to see this data. Could you provide some links?

 

[Jeremiah]

Well unless you look closley at mankind and realize they were literally designed to go man with woman. If everyone became gay mankind would not live. From a factual point of view God determines what is and is not sin. You could not get anyone to prove why it would be immoral to serve two God's but God says that is a sin. It is not about what man thinks is right we did not create ourselves. The fact is that the truth needs to be told to gays that God loves them and does not hate them. That they were created for more than sexual pleasure. They all have been created for a purpose and they are very important to God. Jesus died on the cross for them because He loves them. Where is the hate in that truth? This life is so short and we have it all wrong teaching that we should do everything we can to please ourselves when if we would pay attention if we please God for this short time we will be happy for all of eternity.

"He is no fool that gives up what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose."
Jim Elliot

"Well unless you look closley at mankind and realize they were literally designed to go man with woman"

Some may be "designed" to "go" man with woman and some are not. Some are to be man with man, some woman with woman, and some are man with man/woman with woman. If you looked more closely at sexuality you'd know this be true.


"If everyone became gay mankind would not live."

Concerning homosexuality, I think this pretty much sums up how worthless your opinion is.

 

[Jeremiah]

Why is it so hard for people to grasp the fact that the bible and its claims are irrelevant and meaningless to those who do not believe that it holds any divine truths or moral authority (and rightfully so, due to the woeful lack of logic and evidence)?

They just don't know how to think outside the Bible.

 

[Jeremiah]

Hundreds of Millions of people over a period of two thousand years who claim to have a personal relationship with Christ by way of hearing the word. Kings, presidents, doctors, lawyers, moms, dads, police, every race, every culture all lieing just to tick you off. Some places it only takes two or three wittnesses to prove guilt or innosense? But just say there is no evedence that will make it so.

If that really is your arguing case then why aren't you a Hindu?

 

[MysticSang'ha]

Well unless you look closley at mankind and realize they were literally designed to go man with woman. If everyone became gay mankind would not live.

I love these "design" arguments. Everyone has orifices that also happily can be erogenous zones. Everyone also has digits to insert in said orifices. And my biggest argument against the Man + Woman = Child is that factually, that isn't the case.....it's Sperm + Egg = Child. There are many many ways you can create the conditions for that to occur outside of heterosexual sex.

From a factual point of view God determines what is and is not sin. You could not get anyone to prove why it would be immoral to serve two God's but God says that is a sin. It is not about what man thinks is right we did not create ourselves.

We must agree to disagree. Isn't freedom of expression wonderful?

The fact is that the truth needs to be told to gays that God loves them and does not hate them. That they were created for more than sexual pleasure.

The fact is some people know nothing about sexual orientation.

They all have been created for a purpose and they are very important to God. Jesus died on the cross for them because He loves them. Where is the hate in that truth? This life is so short and we have it all wrong teaching that we should do everything we can to please ourselves when if we would pay attention if we please God for this short time we will be happy for all of eternity.

Ah, I have a very different spiritual teaching that I abide by that is Tibetan Buddhist and not Christian (which I do not have use for). There are very specific teachings in Tibetan Buddhism that show how to find peace, joy, happiness, and how to cherish others that are quite different than what you believe. I do not preach to you. Please return the favor.

 

[Storm]

From a factual point of view God determines what is and is not sin.

Facts are verifiable.

fact –noun
1. something that actually exists; reality; truth: Your fears have no basis in fact.
2. something known to exist or to have happened: Space travel is now a fact.
3. a truth known by actual experience or observation; something known to be true: Scientists gather facts about plant growth.

From a factual point of view, when it comes to questions of God, there are no facts.

You could not get anyone to prove why it would be immoral to serve two God's but God says that is a sin.

No, a book about God says that it's a sin. Big difference.

The fact is that the truth needs to be told to gays that God loves them and does not hate them.

Absolutely!

That they were created for more than sexual pleasure.

And here we have it. You think there's nothing to homosex but base lust. You're so entrenched in your homophobia that you can't even imagine we're just like everyone else. Our relationships are about love as much as straights'.

They all have been created for a purpose and they are very important to God. Jesus died on the cross for them because He loves them. Where is the hate in that truth?

The hate is in what you conveniently left out: the belief that you're not good enough for God unless you give up your identity. That we'll be rejected for being as God made us.

This life is so short and we have it all wrong teaching that we should do everything we can to please ourselves when if we would pay attention if we please God for this short time we will be happy for all of eternity.

And, once again, why should anyone who doesn't adhere to your narrow interpretation of Christianity give a rat's *** about any of this?

"He is no fool that gives up what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose."
Jim Elliot

Couldn't agree more. Giving up dishonest attempts to conform for a life of integrity and self worth is one of the wisest, most important choices a sexual minority will ever make.

 

[Badran]

It's the confusion; remember these are youths we are talking about, not adults. Many do not have the worldliness to believe anything other then what they are told. They need to be exposed to the alternative idea that it is OK, because they will not always think of it on their own. Their nativity compounds the problem, their body is going through many changes, they are feelings things they've never had to deal with before. And while this is true of all youths, it is the LGBT youths who are left with little exposure to eduction on their sexuality. What they are exposed to, all to often, comes from a narrow-minded and ignorant source.

I understand, and agree.

What i'm having trouble with is what should a parent that believes its a sin tell his son/daughter. I mean obviously nothing negative should be said at all about him/her having these feelings, and it should be made clear that there is nothing wrong with that. When it comes to actually acting upon that, what should the parent who believe that having homosexual relations (not being a homosexual) is a sin tell his children? In other words, you've already made it clear that there is nothing wrong or strange or sinful about being attracted to the same sex. You now want to make it clear that your beliefs (as well as his, if you have the same beliefs) says that you shouldn't act upon them, how should a parent handle that?

 

[Smoke]

They just don't know how to think outside the Bible.

They don't know how to think inside the Bible, either. Apart from people who are just vicious, it's generally stupid people who run around screaming about what the Bible supposedly says about gay folks. You don't hear that crap from people like Angellous or Sojourner.

 

[Rainbow Mage]

It isn't the Bible that condemns homosexuality persay, it's that certain people want to interpret it in a way that they feel gives them liscense to attack gays.

 

[Smoke]

What i'm having trouble with is what should a parent that believes its a sin tell his son/daughter. I mean obviously nothing negative should be said at all about him/her having these feelings, and it should be made clear that there is nothing wrong with that. When it comes to actually acting upon that, what should the parent who believe that having homosexual relations (not being a homosexual) is a sin tell his children? In other words, you've already made it clear that there is nothing wrong or strange or sinful about being attracted to the same sex. You now want to make it clear that your beliefs (as well as his, if you have the same beliefs) says that you shouldn't act upon them, how should a parent handle that?

What's the point of telling your kids it's sinful? If your kids are straight, they aren't going to be out having gay sex anyway, so it's kind of like warning them not to stick a cactus up their nose. It's probably not going to happen no matter what you say. And if they're gay, all you're going to do is screw them up emotionally. They'll most likely have gay sex anyway, but they'll hate themselves and possibly you, and they'll have to undo all the crap you've done to their heads before they can have a sane and healthy relationship. Or they may lie all their lives, and marry some poor woman or some poor man whom they can never be honest with and can never love as they deserve to be loved. Or they might just go out one night and drive the car into a bridge abutment, so it can look like an accident.

So what do you really accomplish by telling them it's sinful? Whom are you helping?

 

[Badran]

What's the point of telling your kids it's sinful? If your kids are straight, they aren't going to be out having gay sex anyway, so it's kind of like warning them not to stick a cactus up their nose. It's probably not going to happen no matter what you say. And if they're gay, all you're going to do is screw them up emotionally. They'll most likely have gay sex anyway, but they'll hate themselves and possibly you, and they'll have to undo all the crap you've done to their heads before they can have a sane and healthy relationship. Or they may lie all their lives, and marry some poor woman or some poor man whom they can never be honest with and can never love as they deserve to be loved. Or they might just go out one night and drive the car into a bridge abutment, so it can look like an accident.

So what do you really accomplish by telling them it's sinful? Whom are you helping?

I understand it can never be a positive thing to hear especially in such a young age. There are basically two concerns thats making me want to know what is the least negative, and the best possible way to tell that to your son/daughter, without making him feel anything bad coming from you:

1) That i don't want him/her to listen about this from somebody else first. They are sure going to, and i'd rather make sure the first time they hear about it is not from someone who enjoys acting righteous while describing the horrors that homosexuality leads to. And that is even if they weren't homosexuals (my kids), because while if they weren't that would not hurt their feelings, but i don't want them to be bigots or hold any ill-feelings towards homosexuals. I'd rather make sure i tell them myself.

2) That it is natural for every parent to teach their kids what is right or wrong from their perspective. The more healthy thing of course is to expose them to other perspectives as well, but you still teach them yours, its kind of a responsibility if you think this is right or this wrong, to tell your kids about it.