Is Islamic faith reasonable.

[mycorrhiza]

Which canonical gospels?

The synoptic ones, mostly. Many of the sayings and parables of these three are mirrored in the Gospel of Thomas. Whether or not the GOT is a gnostic text is debatable, though.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

By the way, 1robin, had you actually read the Early Christian Writings post you referenced, you would almost certainly have noticed:

In The Complete Gospels, Harold Attridge considers whether the Infancy Gospel of Thomas contains docetic or Gnostic teachings. Attridge states: "While Gnostics may have been able to interpret stories in Infancy Thomas for their own ends, it is unlikely that they originally composed the work with the aim of propagating their theological positions."​

What do you think?

 

[loverOfTruth]

How it is reasonable to believe in a religion began by a man who fought 68 battles, at least some offensive in nature, and committed acts some scholars suggest were atrocities?

First of all, how can a man fight 68 battles in 8 years (630 CE[conquest of Makkah] - 622 CE[Migration to Medina] = 8 years)? He had to be fighting a battle every month and a half. So when did He form the religion with massive amount of knowledge/history which are recorded in the Qur'an and Hadith ? Can you show an actual historical reference (not from anti-muslim hate sites) supporting your claims ?

But even if He did, you should know the answer to that question very well as you yourself have stated the following to be very reasonable :

[FONT=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica,Swiss,SunSans-Regular]Conclusion: [/FONT][FONT=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica,Swiss,SunSans-Regular]God will take the life of a person who ultimately has rejected and opposed God or his people with physical harm. He will allow and has on some occasions caused, portions of nations to be killed because they have threatened His people - the Israelites.[/FONT]

http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/2875176-post282.html

How is it reasonable to believe in a religious book written by God that has whole sections of gnostic gospels known to be uninspired and incorrect circulating in Arabia at this time copied as scripture? Or to believe in the Quran when compared to the bible, a source hundreds of years closer to the event of the crucifixion with actual witnesses, details are illogically incorrect?

Again, as others have stated, could you show some references ? On the contrary, the Arabic version of the OT/NT didn't exist until much later - "The first Jewish translations of the Hebrew Bible, and the bible translations by Roman Catholic clergy date from c. AD 1000. One of the oldest Arabic bibles was discovered in the 19th century at Saint Catherine's Monastery, Mount Sinai."
From : Bible translations into Arabic - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

How is it reasonable to believe a religion founded on the word of one man?
A man who said he thought he was either possessed or going insane after his cave visit with an angel. The more witnesses the better.

If Muslims or Prophet Muhammad(pbuh) had anything to hide, you wouldn't have seen those statements recorded in history by the muslims. That's more of an evidence that every aspect of Prophet's life was exposed and recorded in minute detail with complete honesty. And I think that would be a reasonable natural reaction when an angel visits a man. Again, if you have read the Bible, it should have seemed reasonable to you. See it for yourself :
" 26 In the sixth month of Elizabeth’s pregnancy, God sent the angel Gabriel to Nazareth, a town in Galilee, 27 to a virgin pledged to be married to a man named Joseph, a descendant of David. The virgin’s name was Mary. 28 The angel went to her and said, “Greetings, you who are highly favored! The Lord is with you.”
29 Mary was greatly troubled at his words and wondered what kind of greeting this might be. 30 But the angel said to her, “Do not be afraid, Mary; you have found favor with God. 31 You will conceive and give birth to a son, and you are to call him Jesus" (Luke 1:26-31)
Luke 1:26-38 NIV - The Birth of Jesus Foretold - In the - Bible Gateway

See the above verses ? It is no different than the story of how angel Gabriel came to Prophet Muhammad(pbuh) and how he was troubled by this unusual experience at first.

You want more stories of Angel Gabriel and prophets in the Bible ? Here it is :
"11 Then an angel of the Lord appeared to him, standing at the right side of the altar of incense. 12 When Zechariah saw him, he was startled and was gripped with fear. 13 But the angel said to him: “Do not be afraid, Zechariah; your prayer has been heard. Your wife Elizabeth will bear you a son, and you are to call him John." (Luke 1:11-13)
Luke 1 NIV - Introduction - Many have undertaken to - Bible Gateway

How is it reasonable to believe in a religion that claims Allah fights with them when they are defeated over and over again when attacking a country (Israel) that is 1% their total combined size and they outnumber 50 to 1 at least?

If you are thinking that everytime a muslim fights is a Just cause and Allah will be on the muslim's side - you are being really naive. God only promised victory and help to the believers for the Just cause. There are currently so many wars going on in the world that are just pure political and even those muslims who are fighting it are not practicing Islam. And even during Prophet's time, muslims lost wars due to not listening to Prophet's command.

I apologize for the directness of the questions, as no insult is intended. I have asked Muslims to address these issues many times but I never gotten a reasonable answer and very few unreasonable ones.

I would give you the benefit of the doubt(even after contrary past experiences) but then advise you to remove your ignorance by not reading on Islam from anti-muslim hate sites but rather from authentic unbiased sources.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Your claims should have included: 5.That it's inspiration is unproven by scholarship.

You're opening a can of words that you may find less than appetizing but it is, of course, your choice. Now, what anout claims 1-3?

 

[1robin]

By the way, 1robin, had you actually read the Early Christian Writings post you referenced, you would almost certainly have noticed:

In The Complete Gospels, Harold Attridge considers whether the Infancy Gospel of Thomas contains docetic or Gnostic teachings. Attridge states: "While Gnostics may have been able to interpret stories in Infancy Thomas for their own ends, it is unlikely that they originally composed the work with the aim of propagating their theological positions."
​

What do you think?

That statement which is one guys opinion doesn't deal with its authenticity concerning claims of inspiration it only deals with his interpretation of their motivation which is not conclusive or the point of contention.

This is quite far afield from my intentions of creating this thread. If you believe the Quran contains no uninspired influence then that is your position and all I asked for. Do you believe that the Quran is the perfect word of God?

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

According to the analysis of textual criticism, the text was originally written in Syriac, but became translated into Arabic, probably around the time that Christianity began to spread into the Arabian peninsula. the narrative of the Arabic Infancy Gospel, particularly the second part concerning the miracles in Egypt, can also be found in the Qur'an. According to some critical scholarship, its presence in the Qu'ran may be due to the influence the Gospel had amongst the Arabs. It is not known however that the Gospel was present in the Hejaz for this to have occured.

And I am most interested in plagiarism from someone whining about the Qur'an plagiarizing Gnostic texts.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

This is quite far afield from my intentions of creating this thread.

Which was?

Do you believe that the Quran is the perfect word of God?

I do not believe anything is the perfect word of God. What does that have to do with your intentions, your confusion, your unspported and unsupportable claims, or your plagiarism?

 

[1robin]

First of all, how can a man fight 68 battles in 8 years (630 CE[conquest of Makkah] - 622 CE[Migration to Medina] = 8 years)? He had to be fighting a battle every month and a half. So when did He form the religion with massive amount of knowledge/history which are recorded in the Qur'an and Hadith ? Can you show an actual historical reference (not from anti-muslim hate sites) supporting your claims ?

But even if He did, you should know the answer to that question very well as you yourself have stated the following to be very reasonable :
http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/2875176-post282.html




Again, as others have stated, could you show some references ? On the contrary, the Arabic version of the OT/NT didn't exist until much later - "The first Jewish translations of the Hebrew Bible, and the bible translations by Roman Catholic clergy date from c. AD 1000. One of the oldest Arabic bibles was discovered in the 19th century at Saint Catherine's Monastery, Mount Sinai."
From : Bible translations into Arabic - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


If Muslims or Prophet Muhammad(pbuh) had anything to hide, you wouldn't have seen those statements recorded in history by the muslims. That's more of an evidence that every aspect of Prophet's life was exposed and recorded in minute detail with complete honesty. And I think that would be a reasonable natural reaction when an angel visits a man. Again, if you have read the Bible, it should have seemed reasonable to you. See it for yourself :
" 26 In the sixth month of Elizabeth’s pregnancy, God sent the angel Gabriel to Nazareth, a town in Galilee, 27 to a virgin pledged to be married to a man named Joseph, a descendant of David. The virgin’s name was Mary. 28 The angel went to her and said, “Greetings, you who are highly favored! The Lord is with you.”
29 Mary was greatly troubled at his words and wondered what kind of greeting this might be. 30 But the angel said to her, “Do not be afraid, Mary; you have found favor with God. 31 You will conceive and give birth to a son, and you are to call him Jesus" (Luke 1:26-31)
Luke 1:26-38 NIV - The Birth of Jesus Foretold - In the - Bible Gateway

See the above verses ? It is no different than the story of how angel Gabriel came to Prophet Muhammad(pbuh) and how he was troubled by this unusual experience at first.

You want more stories of Angel Gabriel and prophets in the Bible ? Here it is :
"11 Then an angel of the Lord appeared to him, standing at the right side of the altar of incense. 12 When Zechariah saw him, he was startled and was gripped with fear. 13 But the angel said to him: “Do not be afraid, Zechariah; your prayer has been heard. Your wife Elizabeth will bear you a son, and you are to call him John." (Luke 1:11-13)
Luke 1 NIV - Introduction - Many have undertaken to - Bible Gateway



If you are thinking that everytime a muslim fights is a Just cause and Allah will be on the muslim's side - you are being really naive. God only promised victory and help to the believers for the Just cause. There are currently so many wars going on in the world that are just pure political and even those muslims who are fighting it are not practicing Islam. And even during Prophet's time, muslims lost wars due to not listening to Prophet's command.



I would give you the benefit of the doubt(even after contrary past experiences) but then advise you to remove your ignorance by not reading on Islam from anti-muslim hate sites but rather from authentic unbiased sources.

Well hello Lover Of Truth I was wondering if you would show up. I will hand it to you, you gave me exactly what I was looking for and I will check into it. I promised myself not to debate the answers at this time. Are your positions considered the orthodox view or a minority view? BTW How do you differentiate who is an Islamic hate site and who is not?. Can you give me a few names of ones you believe are unbiased so I can see if I find them to be so? I never search out a site because it is a hate site and don't know which ones are. I don't hate muslims but I find the faith illogical in my opinion. Thanks for haveing enough courage to actually answer my questions.

Selah

 

[1robin]

Who are "they"? Not even half a percent of all Muslims are fighting against Israel.

Do you mean currently? I was refering to the wars and battles since 1948

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Thanks for haveing enough courage to actually answer my questions.

Speaking of answering questions, would you mind answering mine (without plagiarizing)?

 

[1robin]

Which was?

Well this explains quite a lot.

I do not believe anything is the perfect word of God. What does that have to do with your intentions, your confusion, your unspported and unsupportable claims, or your plagiarism?

I would hate to be this angry all the time. All my claims are the commonly debated topics of internationally respected theologans and philosophers, or events that can be found in any history book. I am not claiming I know they are all true but they are all definatly valid for discussion. The law of diminishing returns, the fact a muslim with courage actually answered my questions instead of misdirection and asking me questions, along with the unpleasant nature of our discussions has left me uninterested in continueing it.

God Bless

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

God Bless

L'shalom.

 

[loverOfTruth]

Well hello Lover Of Truth I was wondering if you would show up. I will hand it to you, you gave me exactly what I was looking for and I will check into it. I promised myself not to debate the answers at this time. Are your positions considered the orthodox view or a minority view? BTW How do you differentiate who is an Islamic hate site and who is not?. Can you give me a few names of ones you believe are unbiased so I can see if I find them to be so? I never search out a site because it is a hate site and don't know which ones are. I don't hate muslims but I find the faith illogical in my opinion. Thanks for haveing enough courage to actually answer my questions.

Selah

A good unbiased book on Islam would be : Vision of Islam (Visions of Reality): Sachiko Murata, William Chittick: 9781557785169: Amazon.com: Books

Anything that quote mines like the sources you quoted from in the past (i.e Islam: Making a True Difference in the World - One Body at a Time) and without proper references would be fake.

I would consider the responses to be mainstream views but again there are 1.5 billion muslims in the world and every one of them is free to differ.

 

[Godobeyer]

there is one Question .
Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) fought them to defend or attack ?

i suggest to read the history of Muhammad (pbuh) from credibale sources then juge .

 

[Godobeyer]

every history of each religion , there is fought between the believers and disbelievers .

in Abrahimic faiths , most of the prophets had some issues with disbelievers

 

[FearGod]

The Quran says:
19:23 . . . [A]nd, when the pain of childbirth drove her to cling to the trunk of the palm tree, she exclaimed, 'I wish I had been long dead and forgotten before all this!' 24 but a voice cried to her from below, 'Do not worry: your Lord has provided a stream at your feet 25 and, if you shake the trunk of the palm tree towards you, it will deliver fresh ripe dates for you, 26 so eat, drink, be glad (Haleem)
http://www.gnosis.org/library/psudomat.htm
Gospel of Pseudo—Matthew
Then the child Jesus, who was sitting with a happy countenance in his mother's lap, said to the palm: 'Bend down your branches, O tree, and refresh my mother with your fruit.' And immediately at this command [voice] the palm bent down to the feet of the blessed Mary, and they gathered from its fruit and they all refreshed themselves . . . [Addressing the palm, Jesus says:] 'And open beneath your roots a vein of water . . . and let the waters flow' . . . And when they saw the fountain of water, they greatly rejoiced and quenched their thirst . . . (The New Testament Apocrypha, vol. 1, p. 463)
The Quran says:
19:29—31 The people said, 'How shall we talk with him, who is but an infant in the cradle?' Whereupon the child spoke out, 'I am a servant of Allah: He has given me the Book and He has appointed me a Prophet, and He has made me blessed wherever I may be. He has enjoined upon me to offer Salat and give Zakat so long as I shall live. (Sayyid Abul A'La Maududi, The Meaning of the Qur'an, vol. 3, p. 67)
The Arabic Infancy Gospel says:
We have found it recorded in the book of Josephus the Chief Priest, who was in the time of Christ (and men say that he was Caiaphas), that this man said that Jesus spake when He was in the cradle, and said to Mary His Mother, 'Verily I am Jesus, the Son of God, the Word which thou hast borne, according as the angel Gabriel gave thee the good news; and My Father hath sent Me for the salvation of the world.' http://www.gnosis.org/library/infarab.htm
The Quran says
By My leave, you [Jesus] fashioned the shape of a bird out of clay, breathed into it, and it became, by My leave, a bird
The Infancy Gospel of Thomas says:
2.1 [Jesus] made soft clay and modeled twelve sparrows from it . . . 4. Jesus clapped his hands and cried to the sparrows, 'Be gone.' And the sparrows flew off chirping.
http://www.earlychristianwritings.co...ncythomas.html

This will be the last time I post any information to back up a point I made as it will be used to prove I created this thread to argue against or insult muslims. I have even went back and changed my first post to try to clarify my intentions but I will not endure false accusations and pointless childish diversions.

The quran have a whole chapter for virgin Mary(pbuh),no other woman have such privilege,
beside that it confirm to the world that virgin Mary(pbuh) was a honest woman and Jesus(pbuh)
was supported with the holy spirit.

Another chapter was named for Abraham(pbuh),other was for Al-imran(mary's father)pbuh

Also prophet Mohamed(pbuh) informed and confirmed that jesus will be back to the
world,to confirm what mentioned in the bible.

 

[1robin]

A good unbiased book on Islam would be : Vision of Islam (Visions of Reality): Sachiko Murata, William Chittick: 9781557785169: Amazon.com: Books

Anything that quote mines like the sources you quoted from in the past (i.e Islam: Making a True Difference in the World - One Body at a Time) and without proper references would be fake.

I am familiar with this site but had forgotten about it. Even I thought it was biased. Are you sure I quoted something from them? I know most of my quotes came from the islamic sources I mentioned but I will recheck.

I would consider the responses to be mainstream views but again there are 1.5 billion muslims in the world and every one of them is free to differ.

Very well.

 

[1robin]

The quran have a whole chapter for virgin Mary(pbuh),no other woman have such privilege,
beside that it confirm to the world that virgin Mary(pbuh) was a honest woman and Jesus(pbuh)
was supported with the holy spirit.

Another chapter was named for Abraham(pbuh),other was for Al-imran(mary's father)pbuh

Also prophet Mohamed(pbuh) informed and confirmed that jesus will be back to the
world,to confirm what mentioned in the bible.

I am a little confused by your post but I will reread it tomorrow. Thanks for your reply.

Selah

 

[1robin]

there is one Question .
Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) fought them to defend or attack ?

i suggest to read the history of Muhammad (pbuh) from credibale sources then juge .

Are suggesting it was defense in all the battles he fought.

 

[1robin]

every history of each religion , there is fought between the believers and disbelievers .

in Abrahimic faiths , most of the prophets had some issues with disbelievers

Agreed I think, but unclear how this applies to my questions.