Is Islamic faith reasonable.

[Jayhawker Soule]

Since I made no claim then where is the ignorance. It is a fact that Islam and Israel have had an adversarial history many times, which is fine. I just found it unexpected, and since this is my opinion your ingnorance claim is misapplied.

We'll see.

But for now, let's see if we can acquire a better appreciation of your criteria for reasonableness: do you deem it reasonable to believe in second-hand testamony about a person, born of a virgin, engaged in driving demons out of people and into suicidal pigs, and capable of rising from the dead?

 

[Marble]

How is it reasonable to believe in a religious book written by God that has whole sections of gnostic gospels known to be uninspired and incorrect circulating in Arabia at this time copied as scripture?

I was not aware that in Quran one can find parts of gnostic gospels.
But since my knowledge of Quran and of gospels is very limited, this is hardly surprising.
Would you let me know where your information regarding this comes from?

 

[1robin]

1robin

How it is reasonable to believe in a religion began by a man who fought 68 battles, at least some offensive in nature, and committed acts some scholars suggest were atrocities?

Well finally an actual answer.

My comment:

I've seen your posts before on this forum.. The situation of early Islam was one of warfare brought on by Meccan pagans on Muslims.

Well finally an actual answer. So in your view all the battles and raids that Muhammad fought were strictly defensive. I will not challenge your answers with the exception of clarity in this thread.
robin:

How is it reasonable to believe in a religious book written by God that has whole sections of gnostic gospels known to be uninspired and incorrect circulating in Arabia at this time copied as scripture?

My comment:

There are similarities to some Christian legends like the sleepers of Ephesus and the Infancy Gospel of Thomas neither of which is Gnostic in origin... They were not "copied as scripture" as they have an entirely different form in the Quran.

Well Artha I am impressed, So you don't believe any of the Quran was borrowed from any uninspired work.

robin:

Or to believe in the Quran when compared to the bible, a source hundreds of years closer to the event of the crucifixion with actual witnesses, details are illogically incorrect?

My comment:

You may be referring to the Quranic verses about the crucifixion that Jesus was not killed.. HIs Spirit however was taken up to God..His Spirit was not crucified.

Well there are many of them associated with Christ, the one you mentioned is an example but you didn't explain them you just mentioned them. I have never heard this version of the Islamic view. Are you suggesting his body did actually die.
robin:

How is it reasonable to believe a religion founded on the word of one man?
A man who said he thought he was either possessed or going insane after his cave visit with an angel. The more witnesses the better.

My comment:

How is it as reasonable to accept that Jesus in the wilderness after His baptism had conversations with Satan? "The more witneses the better"?

Once again an assertion against Christianity is not a defense of Islam. Since you have the temprement and courage to give actual answers I will address your point. If the entire bible was attested to by one man as in your example I would definatly have found it hard to accept.
robin:

How is it reasonable to believe in a religion that claims Allah fights with them when they are defeated over and over again when attacking a country (Israel) that is 1% their total combined size and they outnumber 50 to 1 at least?

Comment:

Israel was established in 1948 through the United Nations ...political issues. Wars and squabbles over the issue of state of Palestine. Does God have to be on one side or another? Or is peace and reconciliation more in accord with the Holy Land than war?

Once again I salute the quality and insight of your answers. I thought it was the claim of the muslim soldiers during the time of the conflicts that Allah was going to fight with them. Was your statement your view or the Islamic orthedox view. I don't know enough about the character of Allah to say what his opinion is. I was going by histories of the time that recorded soldiers marching to Israel chanting God was on their side and then going back the other way a few days later without chanting.

robin:

I apologize for the directness of the questions, as no insult is intended. I have asked Muslims to address these issues many times but I never gotten a reasonable answer and very few unreasonable ones.


Comment:

Not a Muslim here...but your approach seems biased and one sided for the most part.

Well I am very dissapointed I thought your answers sounded a bit unothedox but intelligent, but if not from someone who does have faith in their religion it looses some authority. I could not think of a way to get back what I wanted without sounding the way I did. I think I will try to change the tone a bit.

 

[England my lionheart]

How it is reasonable to believe in a religion began by a man who fought 68 battles, at least some offensive in nature, and committed acts some scholars suggest were atrocities?

How is it reasonable to believe in a religious book written by God that has whole sections of gnostic gospels known to be uninspired and incorrect circulating in Arabia at this time copied as scripture? Or to believe in the Quran when compared to the bible, a source hundreds of years closer to the event of the crucifixion with actual witnesses, details are illogically incorrect?

How is it reasonable to believe a religion founded on the word of one man?
A man who said he thought he was either possessed or going insane after his cave visit with an angel. The more witnesses the better.

How is it reasonable to believe in a religion that claims Allah fights with them when they are defeated over and over again when attacking a country (Israel) that is 1% their total combined size and they outnumber 50 to 1 at least?

I apologize for the directness of the questions, as no insult is intended. I have asked Muslims to address these issues many times but I never gotten a reasonable answer and very few unreasonable ones.

Thanks in advance for your comments.
God Bless,
Selah

Theres an old saying,"people living in glass houses shouldn't throw stones"

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

I was not aware that in Quran one can find parts of gnostic gospels.
But since my knowledge of Quran and of gospels is very limited, this is hardly surprising.
Would you let me know where your information regarding this comes from?

OMG! Everybody knows that! Why, I'll bet 1robin can reference a veritable slew of peer-reviewed scholars supporting his claim. I can hardly wait.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Well finally an actual answer.

Let's hope you reciprocate.

 

[1robin]

Why on earth would you think that "unexpected"?

If you have to ask then my answer won't help.

 

[1robin]

OMG! Everybody knows that! Why, I'll bet 1robin can reference a veritable slew of peer-reviewed scholars supporting his claim. I can hardly wait.

The Quran says:
19:23 . . . [A]nd, when the pain of childbirth drove her to cling to the trunk of the palm tree, she exclaimed, 'I wish I had been long dead and forgotten before all this!' 24 but a voice cried to her from below, 'Do not worry: your Lord has provided a stream at your feet 25 and, if you shake the trunk of the palm tree towards you, it will deliver fresh ripe dates for you, 26 so eat, drink, be glad (Haleem)
http://www.gnosis.org/library/psudomat.htm
Gospel of Pseudo—Matthew
Then the child Jesus, who was sitting with a happy countenance in his mother's lap, said to the palm: 'Bend down your branches, O tree, and refresh my mother with your fruit.' And immediately at this command [voice] the palm bent down to the feet of the blessed Mary, and they gathered from its fruit and they all refreshed themselves . . . [Addressing the palm, Jesus says:] 'And open beneath your roots a vein of water . . . and let the waters flow' . . . And when they saw the fountain of water, they greatly rejoiced and quenched their thirst . . . (The New Testament Apocrypha, vol. 1, p. 463)
The Quran says:
19:29—31 The people said, 'How shall we talk with him, who is but an infant in the cradle?' Whereupon the child spoke out, 'I am a servant of Allah: He has given me the Book and He has appointed me a Prophet, and He has made me blessed wherever I may be. He has enjoined upon me to offer Salat and give Zakat so long as I shall live. (Sayyid Abul A'La Maududi, The Meaning of the Qur'an, vol. 3, p. 67)
The Arabic Infancy Gospel says:
We have found it recorded in the book of Josephus the Chief Priest, who was in the time of Christ (and men say that he was Caiaphas), that this man said that Jesus spake when He was in the cradle, and said to Mary His Mother, 'Verily I am Jesus, the Son of God, the Word which thou hast borne, according as the angel Gabriel gave thee the good news; and My Father hath sent Me for the salvation of the world.' http://www.gnosis.org/library/infarab.htm
The Quran says
By My leave, you [Jesus] fashioned the shape of a bird out of clay, breathed into it, and it became, by My leave, a bird
The Infancy Gospel of Thomas says:
2.1 [Jesus] made soft clay and modeled twelve sparrows from it . . . 4. Jesus clapped his hands and cried to the sparrows, 'Be gone.' And the sparrows flew off chirping.
http://www.earlychristianwritings.co...ncythomas.html

This will be the last time I post any information to back up a point I made as it will be used to prove I created this thread to argue against or insult muslims. I have even went back and changed my first post to try to clarify my intentions but I will not endure false accusations and pointless childish diversions.

 

[1robin]

We'll see.

But for now, let's see if we can acquire a better appreciation of your criteria for reasonableness: do you deem it reasonable to believe in second-hand testamony about a person, born of a virgin, engaged in driving demons out of people and into suicidal pigs, and capable of rising from the dead?

Maybe, If you want to debate the new testament or Christ then make a thread and I will consider discussing it with you. If not either give a sincere reply a counterpoint or quit wasting my time

 

[Tarheeler]

If you have to ask then my answer won't help.

Not true. I've found your responses to be most helpful thus far.:yes:

 

[mycorrhiza]

-similarities between the Qur'an and some gnostic texts-

There are many similarities between gnostic texts and the Bible too. Maybe the inclusion of these events in the Qur'an means that they actually happened, and that the Bible is corrupt for not including them.

 

[1robin]

I was not aware that in Quran one can find parts of gnostic gospels.
But since my knowledge of Quran and of gospels is very limited, this is hardly surprising.
Would you let me know where your information regarding this comes from?

The quran has much in it that seems to be derived from non inspired sources. You could check wikipedia for the Infancy gospel of thomas, and will be able to fallow many links from there. Or just search The Quran and the Gnostics or Fables. I didn't intend to debate Islam which is the height of intolerance to some people so I will leave it here or will provide you with all the links you want if you will send me a private message. I am unfamiliar with your religion could you give me the basics.

 

[1robin]

There are many similarities between gnostic texts and the Bible too. Maybe the inclusion of these events in the Qur'an means that they actually happened, and that the Bible is corrupt for not including them.

I think I will make a thread condemning the bible maybe I will get more info about Islam that way. Since an actual answer is out of the question tell me what specifically you are referring to.

 

[mycorrhiza]

I think I will make a thread condemning the bible maybe I will get more info about Islam that way. Since an actual answer is out of the question tell me what specifically you are referring to.

If we look at the material in the Gospel of Thomas, many of the sayings are part of the canonical gospels, for example.

The tone of your post made it seem you like you made the topic to discredit Islam, not because you were interested in getting your questions answered. The answer, however, is that yes, Islam is just as reasonable as Christianity.

 

[mycorrhiza]

How is it reasonable to believe in a religion that claims Allah fights with them when they are defeated over and over again when attacking a country (Israel) that is 1% their total combined size and they outnumber 50 to 1 at least?

Who are "they"? Not even half a percent of all Muslims are fighting against Israel.

 

[1robin]

Not true. I've found your responses to be most helpful thus far.:yes:

I highly suspect a trap here but sincethis thread can be about anything in the universe except for what I asked fo,r then I will play along cause I am bored. My finding it unexpected is a subjective statement which requires no proof. Since that would not satisfy me either, then my suprise results from what Gen 16: 11-12 suggests and history records. There has been substantial tension throught history between the Jewish people and arabian/muslim people. I was not suggesting there was anything wrong with a jewish person supporting a muslim. The world would be better off if there were more of it, it was simply unexpected to me. Now let's see if my answer was to a sincere question or not.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

How is it reasonable to believe in a religious book written by God that has whole sections of gnostic gospels known to be uninspired and incorrect circulating in Arabia at this time copied as scripture?

The Quran says:
By My leave, you [Jesus] fashioned the shape of a bird out of clay, breathed into it, and it became, by My leave, a bird
The Infancy Gospel of Thomas says:
2.1 [Jesus] made soft clay and modeled twelve sparrows from it . . . 4. Jesus clapped his hands and cried to the sparrows, 'Be gone.' And the sparrows flew off chirping.

Thanks.

So here we have four claims:

1. The Infancy Gospel of Thomas is a Gnostic gospel.
2. The Infancy Gospel of Thomas is known to be uninspired.
3. The Infancy Gospel of Thomas is known to be incorrect.
4. The Infancy Gospel of Thomas was 'copied as scripture.'

Number 4 is easily dispensed with: if a parts of this gospel reflect early tradition it's inclusion in the Qur'an strikes me as no more odd than the fact that much of Mark finds its way inrto the later synoptic gospels. It's interesting, but hardly damning.

Now, would you mind providing evidence of items 1-3?

 

[1robin]

If we look at the material in the Gospel of Thomas, many of the sayings are part of the canonical gospels, for example.

The tone of your post made it seem you like you made the topic to discredit Islam, not because you were interested in getting your questions answered. The answer, however, is that yes, Islam is just as reasonable as Christianity.

Well apparently so but how do I change the nature of my question and not loose the prespective I have on it. I thought about it for a while but couldn't quickly come up with a better way.

Which canonical gospels? I am curious but I shouldn't be spending more time defending christianity that learning from muslims defend Islam in a thread about Islam.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Maybe, If you want to debate the new testament or Christ then make a thread and I will consider discussing it with you. If not either give a sincere reply a counterpoint or quit wasting my time

My reply is very sincere. I sincerely believe that you are ignorantly baiting Islam with rhetorical questions in much the same way as some atheists seek to bait Christianity and Judaism with rhetorical questions. Your post is agenda-driven. Why not be open about the agenda?

 

[Tarheeler]

I highly suspect a trap here but sincethis thread can be about anything in the universe except for what I asked fo,r then I will play along cause I am bored. My finding it unexpected is a subjective statement which requires no proof. Since that would not satisfy me either, then my suprise results from what Gen 16: 11-12 suggests and history records. There has been substantial tension throught history between the Jewish people and arabian/muslim people. I was not suggesting there was anything wrong with a jewish person supporting a muslim. The world would be better off if there were more of it, it was simply unexpected to me. Now let's see if my answer was to a sincere question or not.

Thank you.

I was surprised at the statement, and was curious as to your reasoning.
That's all.