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Is Islam Responsible for the Charlie Hebdo Murders?

Was Charlie Hebdo a target because of Islamic ideology?

  • Yes

    Votes: 26 60.5%
  • No

    Votes: 8 18.6%
  • Other (Explain)

    Votes: 9 20.9%

  • Total voters
    43

gsa

Well-Known Member
An atheist blogger at Patheos says yes:

Sure, Saudi Arabia’s government is solely at fault when it executes someone for speaking out against it. But you can’t blame the government alone for Saudi blogger Raif Badawi’s sentence of 1,000 lashes and ten years in prison for the crime of insulting Islam. To do so is an insult to Badawi and the countless others killed in the name of blasphemy, like those at Charlie Hebdo.

Werleman knows politics, and he is often correct about the political climate in the US and elsewhere. He is also often correct about the steps we need to take politically to ease tensions and remove a powerful recruitment method from these extremists. But he seems too wrapped up in his own ideological position to see the damage done by ignoring all of the problems of Islam, thereby exempting it from any responsibility.

While there seems to be a growing number of non-Muslim Islam apologists, this rule of “anything but Islam” does not seem to transfer to all religions, making the argument even more spurious. When Christians attack an abortion clinic and say they were inspired by religious belief, we take them at their word and rely on moderate, liberal Christians to speak out and condemn such actions. But when Muslims chant religious text while blowing themselves up or gunning down a magazine staff, and then religious terrorist groups take credit for the attack, the faux-liberal Islamic apologists claim religion had nothing to do with it. Anyone who claims otherwise a racist and Islamophobic. If we continue to ignore religion’s influence on Islamic extremism we are allowing these groups carte blanche to exploit religion as one of the most effective recruitment tools in their struggle for power.


What do you think? Does Dan Arel have a point?
 

DawudTalut

Peace be upon you.
Peace be on all.
1-Is not it quite late for anyone to restart things like it.
2-No religion in true practice ask such acts.
3-If it was Islam then how about it:Christian terrorism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
4-Religious or non religious, when living in civilized society all people should live in civilized manner and should not hurt each other and practice common ethics essentials.
 

gsa

Well-Known Member
Peace be on all.
1-Is not it quite late for anyone to restart things like it.
2-No religion in true practice ask such acts.
3-If it was Islam then how about it:Christian terrorism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
4-Religious or non religious, when living in civilized society all people should live in civilized manner and should not hurt each other and practice common ethics essentials.

We call Christian terrorism Christian, though; only with Islam do we insist on downplaying the religious motivations which transcend time and geographic location.
 

gsa

Well-Known Member
I don't think religion is responsible so much as it is an enabler. It provides an situation where the power of someone, be they priest or imman or rabbi, is effectively unquestionable for the true believer.

It also provides the framework. Even if we accepted the somewhat dubious "root cause" analysis that the more ideologically committed members of the left want us to accept, in the case of Charlie Hebdo, it is clear that the targets are identified by reference to Islam. CH was not chosen because it was a racist, nativist, anti-Muslim publication; it was targeted for daring to make representations of the beloved prophet.
 

lewisnotmiller

Grand Hat
Staff member
Premium Member
I've struggled with all this a little of late. Well, struggled is probably the wrong word, but it has been on my thoughts.
As I've mentioned elsewhere, I'm not an anti-theist, in any sense of the word. I confess, I do have a natural scepticism to any hypothesis that finds it useful to proscribe cause to a religion followed by 1.6 billion people, not out of political correctness, but more because my mind jumps to the next obvious question...So what does that mean? As I age, I have tended to leave behind some of my idealism (but only some) in favour of a harder pragmatism, and I suspect this plays into my evolving (or devolving?!) thought process.

I personally think identifying Islam as a root cause is unhelpful. The main chance we have to de-radicalise Islam are Muslims, and I don't think attacking Islam is an effective way of doing this. Instead, I think we should be focusing on specific behaviours. It is up to each Muslim (and indeed each human) to work out where they fit with those behaviours.

Freedom of religion (including the right to leave a religion and criticize a religion) is a simple example of a behaviour which I think is valuable. It's debateable, I suppose, to what degree various Muslims would subscribe to true freedom of religion, and perhaps I am splitting hairs by suggesting that I would be less likely to attack Islam, and more likely to attack a specific behaviour/belief that many Muslims hold to, but in my mind it's an important distinction.

Having said all that, obviously there are times that generalizations are used as an effective way of getting the main thrust of a message across. I certainly am not immune to that. But I think we need to work out exactly what it is we have an issue with and (more important, and often forgotten) what is the most effective means for reducing this sort of negative behaviour and belief.

No doubt some think rational anti-Islamic argument is the best way, but I think it's more effective in mobilising non-Muslims than Muslims. Given (as earlier stated) that I think moderate Muslims are key to eventually dismantling the extremist power-bases, I prefer more focused argument which allows Muslims to see clearly what it is we have a problem with.

Having said all that, I would prefer criticism of Islam to continue over such criticism being silenced. Vastly prefer. Any climate where criticism is quelled is simply unhealthy to my mind.
 

Smart_Guy

...
Premium Member
I don't disagree that Islam does have a hand causing it, but I can't say that Islam is responsible for it. It is like having a fully growing adult son doing something wrong and by default put the full responsibility on the father for having them in the first place.

Islamic teachings and receptions differ. I think those specific teachings and receptions are the obvious responsible, not Islam itself.

Same thing I say about any other religion/belief. Christianity, for example, as a religion is never what's responsible for what bad Christians do, but could have a hand in it somehow.

Otherwise, all Muslims and all Christians would be called criminals by default just for following Islam and Christianity.
 

NoX

Active Member
It's okay. Sometimes we get the impression that others are trying to demonize Islam or talk with ulterior motives, but they could be just saying what they think without bad intentions.

Believe me, giving people the benefit of the doubt in what they say makes life much easier and beautiful :)

But this is just a trolling topic :p something also was discussed many times in different topics is being opened again and again and again, because the purpose is not innocent, purpose is just to serve for Satan. :smile:
 

Smart_Guy

...
Premium Member
But this is just a trolling topic :p something also was discussed many times in different topics is being opened again and again and again, because the purpose is not innocent, purpose is just to serve for Satan. :smile:

Believe me, I know how you feel. You are right in what you said above too, but sometimes it happens cause of new people coming not knowing it was discussed before.

Remember Quran 16:125 :)

You do have a point tho. Both types do exist here :)
 
  • Like
Reactions: NoX

Tumah

Veteran Member
I don't think religion is responsible so much as it is an enabler. It provides an situation where the power of someone, be they priest or imman or rabbi, is effectively unquestionable for the true believer.

I don't think you can blame the religion for the actions of its leaders. By doing so you are taking responsibility off the individual for his actions, and I don't think that's correct. It is also no different than saying that a soldier should be expected to act against his morals at the behest of his officer.

I think it is the other way around, religious leaders present an ideology that its adherents are attracted to for one reason or another and those leaders enable and magnify the values that lead to their adherents acting as they do.

If you have someone inclined towards peaceful coexistence, he is probably not going to be attracted to a place like Trinity United in the first place.
On the other hand, someone who's spent his life suffering for no reason he can discern, will probably be looking for someone to blame and if an Imam with extreme ideologies can provide that satisfaction for enough people, he's probably going to gain a position of influence.
 

Godobeyer

the word "Islam" means "submission" to God
Premium Member
We call Christian terrorism Christian, though; only with Islam do we insist on downplaying the religious motivations which transcend time and geographic location.

Hitler killed 6 millions Jews because ?

Westerns killed each other in WW1 and WW2 , about 60 millions .

genocide the origin habits of North America and Australia .

Most of the World were occupated by Chrisitian(were less athiests) last 60 years .

involved of West in Iraq and Libya and Syria ...etc
 

leibowde84

Veteran Member
Peace be on all.
1-Is not it quite late for anyone to restart things like it.
2-No religion in true practice ask such acts.
3-If it was Islam then how about it:Christian terrorism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
4-Religious or non religious, when living in civilized society all people should live in civilized manner and should not hurt each other and practice common ethics essentials.
The question was whether Islamic Ideology caused these barbaric murders. I think that if you asked those who committed these crimes what their motivation was, they would probably tell you it had at least something to do with disrespect toward Muhammad. If this is the case, then the answer to the OP question has to be yes.
 

leibowde84

Veteran Member
It's okay. Sometimes we get the impression that others are trying to demonize Islam or talk with ulterior motives, but they could be just saying what they think without bad intentions.

Believe me, giving people the benefit of the doubt in what they say makes life much easier and beautiful :)
You are the man!! It is frustrating to me (a non-muslim) when the Islamic community refuses to discuss issues like this, claiming that it is merely an attempt to attack Islam. What we know about the murders seems to point to Islamic beliefs. The question was whether the murders were pushed to action because of Islamic teachings. I think the answer could reasonably be substantiated as being yes. Unless some of the unsubstantiated conspiracy theories are proven, I think this is the most reasonable assumption.
 

leibowde84

Veteran Member
Blaming islam for charlie hebdo is very dangerous thing to do so. More fuel to the fire.
The OP does not blame Islam for anything. It is merely asking the question whether Islamic teachings pushed the murderers to take lives as a result of what they considered to be insults of Muhammad. Do you not think this is true? If not, why not?
 

leibowde84

Veteran Member
But this is just a trolling topic :p something also was discussed many times in different topics is being opened again and again and again, because the purpose is not innocent, purpose is just to serve for Satan. :smile:
LOL. It's because it is an extremely interesting and relevant subject. This topic needs to be discussed in open forums without anyone pulling the "satan card." It is immature to dismiss arguments that you do not agree with by assuming that they are the work of a supernatural, evil force. There are many good-hearted, intelligent people that want to discuss this issue, as it is hard for many to understand why an insult towards a historical figure would cause so much outrage. I, for one, want to understand the issue from your side, and I'm ready and willing to learn. But, with attitudes like yours, no progress will ever be made between religious traditions.
 
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