Is Islam a religion? What defines a religion?

[rocka21]

This is for another thread. I will not continue discussion with you here. I am tired of this thread being taken off-subject.

thats what i thought!

you know that statement is RIGHT! and instead of saying so you say " off topic" , " off topic"


how could you dare possibly agree with ANYTHING he says. LOL:angel2:

 

[Bishka]

Again, I stated the question, is there any faith/practice that some claim as a religion but you do not see it as a religion and why?

 

[MaddLlama]

The question would be, ladies and gentlemen, if a million Christians want to go to Saudi Arabia and say, "We want to pray," you can't pray in Saudi Arabia. You can't have religious literature in Saudi Arabia. You can't get together in Bible study groups in Saudi Arabia. As far as having special places for foot-washing and all that, no way. You will abide by Sharia law because they're in control.

And, at no point in history did another religion do anything like that? What about Europe in the Dark Ages and the Middle Ages? What about the time of the Reformation, and how about how the Catholic Church England and most other countries in Europe burned all Protestant literature they could get their hands on?

No, we forget these things because it isn't convenient to our point.

And, I also don't see what any of that has to do with whether or not Islam is a religion. Pointing out the customs of the countries in the Middle East doesn't do anything productive but show what happens when you intertwine religion and politics. Funny, isn't that exactly what the Christians want to do?

 

[Mr Spinkles]

Pointing out the customs of the countries in the Middle East doesn't do anything productive but show what happens when you intertwine religion and politics. Funny, isn't that exactly what the Christians want to do?

That's exactly what some Christians want to do, sure. But that contingent of Christians doesn't really compare, as far as I can tell, to the numbers and scale of the Muslims who want to set up a religious (Shariah) state.

I don't think it's off base to say that contemporary Islam does differ somewhat from contemporary Christianity in that a political and legal system is more explicitly called for in Islam than in Christianity. The fact is that the Qu'ran and the Hadith do include something of an instruction manual for running God's government, and many Muslims do take this divinely-inspired political/economic/legal mandate seriously.

That is certainly scary stuff, but it is i.m.o. exacerbated by people like Pat Robertson who are more concerned about preserving Christian hegemony than with preserving secular democratic government.

 

[Sahar]

The question would be, ladies and gentlemen, if a million Christians want to go to Saudi Arabia and say, "We want to pray," you can't pray in Saudi Arabia. You can't have religious literature in Saudi Arabia. You can't get together in Bible study groups in Saudi Arabia. As far as having special places for foot-washing and all that, no way. You will abide by Sharia law because they're in control.


he makes this up becky?

why don't you go to saudi arabia and build a mormon church

The church thing in Saudi Arabia is related more to the place; i.e. it's true that it's not allowed to build churches in Saudi Arabia but it can be done in any other place under Islamic Shari'a. The right of worship is ensured under Islamic Shari'a and this includes building places of worship. But when it comes to the Arabian Peninsula, it's different.

But that contingent of Christians doesn't really compare, as far as I can tell, to the numbers and scale of the Muslims who want to set up a religious (Shariah) state.

So what?!

The fact is that the Qu'ran and the Hadith do include something of an instruction manual for running God's government, and many Muslims do take this divinely-inspired political/economic/legal mandate seriously.

Lol! I don't know this "God's Government" that your talking about but absolutely muslims should take th Quran and Hadith seriously, we are not playing here!!

 

[Mr Spinkles]

So what?!

I was simply responding to MaddLlama's comment. It was just an observation.

Lol! I don't know this "God's Government" that your talking about but absolutely muslims should take th Quran and Hadith seriously, we are not playing here!!

Well, if Muslims take the Quran and Hadith seriously, then they will likely take seriously the legal and political guidelines therein, guidelines which came from Muhammad as revealed, they believe, by God. I used the expression "God's government" to contrast this with secular democratic governments which draw their authority from 'the People', not God.

 

[Ori]

Pat Robertson is a bit of a knob.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

----------------Mod Post---------------

The OP topic is

Is Islam a religion? What defines a religion?

It is not about discussing Pat Robinson or his opinions.

Please keep on topic
This is the second Mod post in this thread
The thread is in danger of being closed
​

 

[TashaN]

According to Islam, do people have the *legal* right to free speech?

Before answering you, would you please define free speech for me.

Can a person publicly express his/her belief that there is no God, or that there are many gods

Yes.

or that people should not follow the Prophet

You can't tell Muslims in public to stop following Mohammed, for the simple fact that they will walk by and laugh of what you say. and you are free to tell that to the non-muslims because it wouldn't make any different to them.

 

[rocka21]

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Before answering you, would you please define free speech for me.



Yes.



You can't tell Muslims in public to stop following Mohammed, for the simple fact that they will walk by and laugh of what you say. and you are free to tell that to the non-muslims because it wouldn't make any different to them.

if they would laugh and walk by, then why is it agaist the law?

 

[fullyveiled muslimah]

if they would laugh and walk by, then why is it agaist the law?

It being against the law to stand somewhere and p-tize muslims ain't all that odd since it's illegal in many places in the US to stand somewhere and do that to anyone. Also, it does nothing to take away a persons legal right to practice their own religion. The muslims in that situation wouldn't need to try to convert someone because by virtue of living with us, these people will be affected anyway. They will either be drawn to Islam or not.

In a state ran by shariah the building of places of worship, the practicing of various religions, or lack of a religion are all permitted. This is contrary to popular belief that muslims have a ruthless system that destroys or tries to destroy everything not islamic.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

Pat Robertson is a moron who needs some oxy.

 

[Popeyesays]

It being against the law to stand somewhere and p-tize muslims ain't all that odd since it's illegal in many places in the US to stand somewhere and do that to anyone. Also, it does nothing to take away a persons legal right to practice their own religion. The muslims in that situation wouldn't need to try to convert someone because by virtue of living with us, these people will be affected anyway. They will either be drawn to Islam or not.

In a state ran by shariah the building of places of worship, the practicing of various religions, or lack of a religion are all permitted. This is contrary to popular belief that muslims have a ruthless system that destroys or tries to destroy everything not islamic.

Almost true. It is still illegal under shariah for a Muslim to convert to Christianity or another religion.

It is still true that in Iran and Egypt Baha`i's are denied the right to practice their religion, denied the right to education, health care, employment, the full rights of citizenship in the country of their residence because the Islamic authorities decide to play politics with the Shariah.

The Shariah can be abused if the government is not just and is hypocritical.

Regards,
Scott

 

[fullyveiled muslimah]

The Shariah can be abused if the government is not just and is hypocritical.

Exactly. Whenever I say shariah, I do not mean any country in existance today. It is quite obvious that no so-called muslim country today is doing remotely good job of upholding the rights of any of it's citizens, let alone the rights due to religious organizations.

This is one reason why the muslims need to re-establish the khilafa system, so that a standard of quality, excellence, and accountability can be set to which all muslims countries would have to be held. That way rogue muslim states and states not upholding the rights of its people and general human rights can be taken to task, and held to account for that rather then be allowed to run roughshod over everything not bending to its will. The fact that the muslims have failed to implement our own system, has given way to the deplorable conditions existing under the guise of Islam and shariah.

 

[rojse]

Christianity has their own country. It is called Vatican City. Jews have their own state, but they are always at war to keep it. Many other countries have an "official" religion, which is tightly interwound with the politics of that country. Why should Muslims not have their own country, then?

To answer the central question of the thread, I am at a loss to see how Islam could not be a religion, and have not seen a good explanation on this thread yet. From our Eurocentric viewing of religion, they have prophets, many of which also belong in the Christian Bible. They acknowledge Jesus, although they do not see him as the central figure of their religion. There are commandments and prayers for Islam, although they are different to the Christian prayers. From a more diverse viewing of what a religion is, it has a central set of stories and commandments that all worshippers must abide by, and so forth. Should that fail to persuade, Islam is deemed a religion by just about all political authorities, and that is good enough for me.

 

[Mr Spinkles]

[/color][/size][/font][/color][/font][/size]

Before answering you, would you please define free speech for me.

Essentially, by "free speech" I mean the right to say anything you want, with the obvious exceptions that you can't yell "fire!" in a crowded theater, you can't say there's a bomb on the plane, you can't threaten to kill someone else, etc.

Maybe it would be easier if you just explained to me what sort of "speech", other than the exceptions I mentioned above, is NOT allowed under Shariah law, and what sorts of punishments there are for this.

In any case, I think there is validity to the idea that Islam is not just a religion, but also a legal system, in light of Shariah. What do you think? Is Islam just a religion, not a legal system, and therefore compatible with and subservient to secular courts and judges?

You can't tell Muslims in public to stop following Mohammed, for the simple fact that they will walk by and laugh of what you say.

So it's not illegal under Shariah law, then?

It being against the law to stand somewhere and p-tize muslims ain't all that odd since it's illegal in many places in the US to stand somewhere and do that to anyone.

There is a difference between forbidding proselytizing in general in certain places, and specifically forbidding non-Muslims from proselytizing to Muslims.

 

[TashaN]

Essentially, by "free speech" I mean the right to say anything you want, with the obvious exceptions that you can't yell "fire!" in a crowded theater, you can't say there's a bomb on the plane, you can't threaten to kill someone else, etc.

Maybe it would be easier if you just explained to me what sort of "speech", other than the exceptions I mentioned above, is NOT allowed under Shariah law, and what sorts of punishments there are for this.

Who can define and classify these *exceptions* you just posted?

And why can't i yell "fire!"? I thought that was part of "free speech". Of course, i admit, i'm not a scholars and i don't know what one can say or can't in public for sure, but all what i know is that, in genera, *free speech* of an individual in Islam stops where it cross into the freedom of others.

In any case, I think there is validity to the idea that Islam is not just a religion, but also a legal system, in light of Shariah. What do you think? Is Islam just a religion, not a legal system, and therefore compatible with and subservient to secular courts and judges?

Islam is a complete way of life. Its everything.

So it's not illegal under Shariah law, then?

It depend whether you are trying to discuss that issue with others or just *preach* and proselytize.

 

[rojse]

Could I really tell Christians in America that their God is false? Apart from the risk of an attack by a religious person, I would probably be put on a public nuisance charge, or some other trivial charge.

 

[Mr Spinkles]

Could I really tell Christians in America that their God is false? Apart from the risk of an attack by a religious person, I would probably be put on a public nuisance charge, or some other trivial charge.

This really has nothing to do with my questions about Islam and if/how it can be called both a religion and a legal system. American laws against public nuisance and harassment have nothing to do with religious content. There's no law against public nuisance that applies to non-Christians that doesn't apply to Christians.

 

[Mr Spinkles]

Who can define and classify these *exceptions* you just posted?

I would say that all of these exceptions to free speech infringe on the rights of other people. But this really has nothing to do with my question. My question is whether Shariah law prohibits some expression on the basis of its religious (or blasphemous) content. I am not talking about laws that prohibit expression on the basis of protecting people from harassment - those are laws which apply to everyone equally, whether they are Muslim or Christian or atheist or Jewish. I am asking about any law that would constrain the expression of a non-Muslim any differently than it would constrain the expression of a Muslim.

And why can't i yell "fire!"? I thought that was part of "free speech".

You can't yell "fire" in a crowded theater when it is NOT on fire, because that could cause panic and people could get hurt.

Of course, i admit, i'm not a scholars and i don't know what one can say or can't in public for sure, but all what i know is that, in genera, *free speech* of an individual in Islam stops where it cross into the freedom of others.

Ah, okay. Thanks for clearing that up. I thought that Shariah included laws against blasphemy....for example, I thought that in Saudi Arabia it was illegal to have Bible study groups but legal to have Qu'ran study groups, it's illegal for a person to publicly declare that Islam/Muhammad/Allah is false, it's illegal for a Muslim to convert to another religion, and so forth.

Islam is a complete way of life. Its everything.

A government, too?

It depend whether you are trying to discuss that issue with others or just *preach* and proselytize.

So a Christian or Jew or atheist can't preach/proselytize to a Muslim under Shariah law. (What's the penalty for that?) Can a Muslim preach/proselytize to non-Muslims?