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Is Hell a Basic Christian Tenet?

Where?

Apostles' Creed (BCP pg. 96)
"He suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, died and was buried. He descended to the dead. On the third day he rose again. He ascended into heaven..."

Says nothing about hell.
Where are the dead? The typical translation there is either Hell or Hades.

What does "judgment," (as mentioned in the Apostles' Creed) have to do with sending someone to hell?
There are both sheep and goats at the judgement of Christ.

(The Apostles' Creed does mention "hell" in the antiquated language of the 1928 BCP language, which is reflected in the Rite I Service of the Daily Office of the 1979 BCP, but the more widely-used and accepted Rite II Service [as quoted above] does not mention "hell." and it is not mentioned in any case, in the Nicene Creed, which is the customary Creed used for Eucharist.)
antiquated...meaning first? ;) http://www.creeds.net/ancient/apostles.htm

Unless you believe either "inferna" or κατώτατα mean "the dead," then you must admit that the translation you're ascribing to isn't really accurate.

This reflects a broad acceptable range of belief for the Episcopalian. The Creeds are a guide, not a contract for belief.
So a person could legitimately deny a clause of the Apostles' Creed and still be considered an orthodox Episcopalian?
 

Quiddity

UndertheInfluenceofGiants
Where?

Apostles' Creed (BCP pg. 96)
"He suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, died and was buried. He descended to the dead. On the third day he rose again. He ascended into heaven..."

Says nothing about hell.

Nicene Creed (BCP pg. 358)

"For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate; he suffered death and was buried. On the third day he rose again in accordance with the Scriptures;..."

Again, nothing about hell.

What does "judgment," (as mentioned in the Apostles' Creed) have to do with sending someone to hell?

(The Apostles' Creed does mention "hell" in the antiquated language of the 1928 BCP language, which is reflected in the Rite I Service of the Daily Office of the 1979 BCP, but the more widely-used and accepted Rite II Service [as quoted above] does not mention "hell." and it is not mentioned in any case, in the Nicene Creed, which is the customary Creed used for Eucharist.)

This reflects a broad acceptable range of belief for the Episcopalian. The Creeds are a guide, not a contract for belief.
It matters not. The concept of hell was believed whether it's in a Creed or not. Episcopolians might be split about this, but there is a strong argument that Hell was indeed taught. In fact, the terms "the communion of saints", "life everlasting", nor the words "conceived", "suffered", "died", and "Catholic" are also not in the old Roman Creed. Yet we both believe these things, eh?
 

lilithu

The Devil's Advocate
Its sounds as though Pearson has decided that God's word can be left to subjective feelings, rather than letting the text be what it is.
You mean feelings like compassion and love? God-given feelings?


Jesus talks about hell . . . is Jesus lying . . . making up a story? I think the bible is pretty clear-- hell exists and is where people who do not recieve the message of Jesus Christ are going.
Your logic has a problem. You are assuming that the bible has no errors or changes in meaning over time. How do you know that what Jesus was talking about is the same place that you have in mind now?
 

joeboonda

Well-Known Member
I should like to propose an idea from scripture about eternal damnation and how it may be avoided and how it may not. First, some scripture:

27Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed. 28Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
29Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
32Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Moses gave you not that bread from heaven; but my Father giveth you the true bread from heaven.
33For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world.
34Then said they unto him, Lord, evermore give us this bread.
35And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.
36But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not.
37All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
38For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
39And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
44No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
45It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.
46Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.
47Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.
48I am that bread of life.
49Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead.
50This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die.
51I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.
52The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us his flesh to eat?
53Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.
54Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
55For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.
56He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.
57As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me.
58This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.
64But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.
65And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
66From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.
67Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away?
68Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life. 69And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God.


Here, Jesus says the work of God is to believe in Him. The bread is His flesh that He will give so the world may have life (by paying for our sins on the cross and giving us His righteousness in place of our own). When Jesus said we must eat and drink His flesh and blood, many turned away but the twelve said He has the words of eternal life and they believe and are sure He is the Christ, the Son of the living God.

Follow me further:

Mathew 25

40And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
41Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
42For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
43I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
44Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
45Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. 46And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

And again He says:

Mathew 7


22Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Do these verses contradict? For one says some did not help others and thus were told to depart from Him. Yet in Matt 7 they ask, Haven't we done many wonderful works? It almost looks like "damned if you do and damned if you don't", but is it? Jesus is brilliant as we know by how every time the religious leaders asked Him a 'trick' question, He always confounded them with His wisdom. So, what is He saying here? I propose this: Jesus said the work of God is to believe in Him. That the bread is His flesh He gave so we may have life. So, we must partake of His flesh and blood by believing in Him, that He gave His flesh and blood on Calvary to wash away our sins and to give us His righteousness in place of our own 'wonderful (dead) works', which are as filthy rags the Bible says. So, I say we are saved from eternal damnation by trusting In Christ and putting on His righteousness UNTO good works that follow, but NOT by our good works but by the flesh and blood of Christ as the Bible says:

Ephesians 2

8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9Not of works, lest any man should boast. 10For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Titus 3

4But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,

5Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; 6Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;


Galatians 2

16Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Romans 4

4 When a man works, his pay is not considered a gift. It is owed to him. 5 But things are different with God. He makes evil people right with himself. If people trust in him, their faith is accepted even though they do not work. Their faith makes them right with God.
6 King David says the same thing. He tells us how blessed some people are. God makes those people right with himself. But they don't have to do anything in return. David says,

7 "Blessed are those
whose lawless acts are forgiven.
Blessed are those
whose sins are taken away.
8 Blessed is the man
whose sin the Lord never counts against him." —(Psalm 32:1,2)

So, again, those who try to enter Heaven by their own good works will not get in. They will be told to depart into everlasting punishment. But those who eat and drink the body and blood of Christ, who trust Him for salvation which is a free gift nobody can work for, will enter into the joy of the Lord. Although we do not have to do anything in return, (although we would be miserable Christians and will suffer loss yet be saved as by fire, and will have no reward), We were saved freely UNTO good works, good works following salvation by faith in Christ. So, as a Christian yields themselves to God and grows in grace they will begin to produce the fruits of the Spirit and produce the fruit of good works and love towards others. But, one who does not enter in by the Gate, that is by Christ, who alone was worthy and able to pay for our sins as He was sinless, no matter how many good works they do to earn salvation, which cannot be earned as it is a gift, shall in no wise enter in, but those who trust in Christ, He says He will in no wise cast out. I am told in the greek this is a big no, five times: I will never, no, never, no, never cast out.
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
Where are the dead? The typical translation there is either Hell or Hades.

Or "Sheol." This illustrates that the Christian belief is that one is either a) alive or b) dead. The basic Christian tenet is unconcerned with hell, per se. Why? Because Christ came to the place where the dead are and released them to life. If there is a "place of the dead" (that one might call "hell" -- but not in the Dante sense), that place would be...empty, because Christ has released the prisoners. Therefore, in Christian theology, hell is a moot point.
There are both sheep and goats at the judgement of Christ.
"Judge the living and the dead." I don't see any mention of sending anyone anywhere in that statement, whether they be people, sheep, goats, or pink unicorns.
antiquated...meaning first?
Like the Commodore 64 computer, or the Edison "Talking Machine," or the Redstone and Atlas rockets, or the stone spear heads...shall I go on?
Unless you believe either "inferna" or κατώτατα mean "the dead," then you must admit that the translation you're ascribing to isn't really accurate.
In what way is it not "accurate?" Your post intended to hold Episcopalians to some sort of professed, standard, creedal belief. I stated what our Creed says. I can't help it if you don't like it, but that's really your issue, and not an issue for the ECUSA. What I must admit is that we believe what we believe, not what you think we "should" believe.
So a person could legitimately deny a clause of the Apostles' Creed and still be considered an orthodox Episcopalian?
The ECUSA points out, but does not dictate, doctrine.
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
It matters not. The concept of hell was believed whether it's in a Creed or not. Episcopolians might be split about this, but there is a strong argument that Hell was indeed taught. In fact, the terms "the communion of saints", "life everlasting", nor the words "conceived", "suffered", "died", and "Catholic" are also not in the old Roman Creed. Yet we both believe these things, eh?

But "believing" is different from being a "basic tenet of the faith." The point of the post-in-question is that, since "hell" is mentioned in the Creed, it must be a basic tenet of the faith. For an Episcopalian, nothing could be further from the truth, especially since I illustrated the difference between the Nicene and Apostles' Creeds, and pointed out the difference in wording between the 1928 and 1979 versions. The Creed is not the be-all-end-all of our belief system. It's a guide only.
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
But those who eat and drink the body and blood of Christ, who trust Him for salvation which is a free gift nobody can work for, will enter into the joy of the Lord. Although we do not have to do anything in return, (although we would be miserable Christians and will suffer loss yet be saved as by fire, and will have no reward),
A couple of problems here. First of all, I doubt you believe that, in the Eucharist, you are eating and drinking the Body and Blood of Christ. Second, salvation is not a rewards-based proposition, for if it is, then it most definitely is based upon what we do in order to get the reward.
 

lunamoth

Will to love
What's amazing to me is that this has turned to a crticism of Epsicopalians when neither Terry nor myself has expressed a view contrary to either the Catholic or E. Orthodox beliefs. As Soj has pointed out, Anglicans are free to understand the creeds and doctrine of hell as they will, and none of us has stood up here saying that what we say in any way represents others. We represent just ourselves in this.

Ah well, if we're going to be criticized for anything, it might just as well be for being compassionate and non-dogmatic.

2c,
luna
 

joeboonda

Well-Known Member
A couple of problems here. First of all, I doubt you believe that, in the Eucharist, you are eating and drinking the Body and Blood of Christ. Second, salvation is not a rewards-based proposition, for if it is, then it most definitely is based upon what we do in order to get the reward.

Right I do not believe in transubstantiation (may have even spelled it wrong). And I did not say salvation was based on rewards, but that it is a free gift, works following as a result of our being transformed into a new creature, from death to life. As we allow the Holy Spirit to work in us we produce the fruits of the Spirit and the fruit of good works for which the Bible says there are rewards for believers who have yielded to the Spirit and produced good works.
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
those who try to enter Heaven by their own good works will not get in...But those who eat and drink the body and blood of Christ,...will enter into the joy of the Lord.

So, if you're eating and drinking the Body and Blood of Christ, how can you sahre in the joy of the Lord?
I did not say salvation was based on rewards, but that it is a free gift...
Then what do you mena by this:
and will suffer loss yet be saved as by fire, and will have no reward
 

Calabrese

New Member
Jesus asked if He would find faith on the earth when He returned. The Bible is full of prophecies fulfilled very precisely and in detail. Only the one true God can know the future and only the Bible dares to prophecy future events. God says we will find Him when we seek Him with ALL our heart. Study Bible prophecy for one, it will show you the Bible is true and Jesus' words are true.

Um...there exist countless books which dare to prophesy future events. What are you talking about?
 

Sonic247

Well-Known Member
Unless you believe either "inferna" or κατώτατα mean "the dead," then you must admit that the translation you're ascribing to isn't really accurate.
All I know is the rich man that was so thirsty that he would be thankful for even a drop of water paints a scary enough picture of hell, as well as Jesus saying it is better to take out your own eye then to go there.
 

LogDog

Active Member
All I know is the rich man that was so thirsty that he would be thankful for even a drop of water paints a scary enough picture of hell, as well as Jesus saying it is better to take out your own eye then to go there.

Sounds like you choose to believe in god because you're afraid of what might happen to you if you don't. God is love? Right.
 

Quiddity

UndertheInfluenceofGiants
But "believing" is different from being a "basic tenet of the faith." The point of the post-in-question is that, since "hell" is mentioned in the Creed, it must be a basic tenet of the faith. For an Episcopalian, nothing could be further from the truth, especially since I illustrated the difference between the Nicene and Apostles' Creeds, and pointed out the difference in wording between the 1928 and 1979 versions. The Creed is not the be-all-end-all of our belief system. It's a guide only.
I can role with that. What I can't role with is someone saying that Hell was somehow a latter invention within Christendom. But if that isn't what you mean, then I guess we agree.
 
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