Is having doubts "bad"?

[Jabar]

Faith is a matter of one's own convictions of what believe in. Faith is not deemed as "evidence".

You don't understand what faith is.

One can have faith in Zeus or Aphrodite, in Odin or Freyja, in Osiris or Isis, in Vishnu or Kali, or in leprechauns or pixie.

Would you believe each and everyone's faith to be evidences for their existences?

Evidence should be independent of one's own opinions, belief, faith, bias and personal preference.

You are a Muslim, so you have already made your own mind that Allah is real. That's your opinion, that's not evidence.

Sure, I can look deeper into what you believe in - the supernatural beings - but what I will see is what you won't like hearing - that belief in the supernatural and superstition is like believing in one's wishful "fantasy" or "delusion".

That's what I will see when I look deeper.

In terms of Islam, faith is evidence. Qur'an has scientific evidences that proves. Logically, God is real. If a new object or a machine, which no one in the world has ever seen or heard of before, is shown to an atheist or any person and then a question is asked, " Who is the first person who will be able to provide details of the mechanism of this unknown object? After little bit of thinking, he will reply, ‘the creator of that object.’ Some may say ‘the producer’ while others may say ‘the manufacturer.’ What ever answer the person gives, keep it in your mind, the answer will always be either the creator, the producer, the manufacturer or some what of the same meaning, i.e. the person who has made it or created it. Don’t grapple with words, whatever answer he gives, the meaning will be same,

 

[gnostic]

It is one thing, say, to start questioning going to religious services (if applicable for that religion)

Well, I am certainly not talking about one's attendance, quintessence.

It should be obvious in the direction of the OP that I am talking about doubt in belief, and why some people (believers) think that is "bad"...forgive my choice of word...to question belief.

My main question from the OP is:

What I don't understand is why people are afraid of having doubts or afraid of questioning in their belief?

That's the question I was asking. That's the direction I was heading towards. It is about challenging or questioning belief, when there is doubt.

Are there advantages towards having doubts?
And why are some people afraid of doubts?​

 

[gnostic]

In terms of Islam, faith is evidence. Qur'an has scientific evidences that proves. Logically, God is real.

No, Jabar.

That just you projecting modern interpretations into ancient text. And that's just you twisting both science and your scriptures to fit in your personal bias, nothing more, nothing less.

And logic is not evidence. Logic is a mental construct of what might represent reality. Logic, by itself, isn't reality. Some logics are right, and have real application in the real world, but other wrong, or have no value in the real world.

Mathematics...and I am talking of real mathematics and not that silly numerology that you believe in...is a logical language that may have real application and therefore testable, but they alone are not reality.

Now unless God show himself to everyone that he is real, you are only basing this flimsy evidence of yours, on personal belief of a book, that are filled with unreliable accounts of myths, fables and superstitions.

There are some values in the Qur'an, and it is not science, it is not history, and it is definitely not you God or your fanatical devotion to your prophet and book.

It quite typical for Muslims, such as yourself, like to change the definition of a word to fit your bias.

 

[Jabar]

No, Jabar.

That just you projecting modern interpretations into ancient text. And that's just you twisting both science and your scriptures to fit in your personal bias, nothing more, nothing less.

And logic is not evidence. Logic is a mental construct of what might represent reality. Logic, by itself, isn't reality. Some logics are right, and have real application in the real world, but other wrong, or have no value in the real world.

Mathematics...and I am talking of real mathematics and not that silly numerology that you believe in...is a logical language that may have real application and therefore testable, but they alone are not reality.

Now unless God show himself to everyone that he is real, you are only basing this flimsy evidence of yours, on personal belief of a book, that are filled with unreliable accounts of myths, fables and superstitions.

There are some values in the Qur'an, and it is not science, it is not history, and it is definitely not you God or your fanatical devotion to your prophet and book.

It quite typical for Muslims, such as yourself, like to change the definition of a word to fit your bias.

How am i twisting words? Qur'an mentions universe expanding.

And it is We Who have constructed the heaven with might, and verily, it is We Who are steadily expanding it. (Qur'an, 51:47)

Qur'an mentions water cycle:
… We send down from heaven pure water so that by it We can bring a dead land to life and give drink to many of the animals and people We created. (Qur'an, 25:48-49)
And We sent down blessed water from the sky and made gardens grow by it and grain for harvesting. (Qur'an, 50:9)

It is Allah Who sends the winds which stir up clouds which He spreads about the sky however He wills. He forms them into dark clumps and you see the rain come pouring out from the middle of them. When He makes it fall on those of His servants He wills, they rejoice. (Qur'an, 30:48)

Have you not seen how Allah drives along the clouds, then joins them together, then makes them into a stack, and then you see the rain come out of it? And He sends down from the sky mountain masses [of clouds] with cold hail in them, striking with it anyone He wills and averting it from anyone He wills. The brightness of His lightning almost blinds the sight. (Qur'an, 24:43)

http://www.miraclesofthequran.com/scientific_44.html

There is more i can say. This is clear evidence. Qur'an was revealed 1400 years ago, who could of known these? We know this from modern science, do you know the time period all these things are being stated? This is truly divine. Allah All-Mighty is real.

 

[gnostic]

@Jabar

This is not about science, or about the Qur'an for that matter. I am not focusing on one religion or one scripture. When I talk of the bible or the Christianity, I was only doing so to provide my experiences ONLY AS AN EXAMPLE to this topic.

This thread is about why some people have doubts on religious belief and why others are afraid of those doubts, especially about questioning belief.

If you want to scientific miracles or scientific signs in the Qur'an, then please start a new thread, and I will join you in that thread, instead of derailing this thread.

 

[Jabar]

@Jabar

This is not about science, or about the Qur'an for that matter. I am not focusing on one religion or one scripture. When I talk of the bible or the Christianity, I was only doing so to provide my experiences ONLY AS AN EXAMPLE to this topic.

This thread is about why some people have doubts on religious belief and why others are afraid of those doubts, especially about questioning belief.

If you want to scientific miracles or scientific signs in the Qur'an, then please start a new thread, and I will join you in that thread, instead of derailing this thread.

But you just said that i tamper with the words to make it fit with observations.

 

[Quintessence]

@gnostic , I take it from your response that you don't consider believing one should attend religious services to be a religious belief? Or taking a particular interpretation of a religious text as a religious belief either?

Hmm. I guess I find that a bit odd. I really don't know what examples you're looking for, then. I gave what I thought was a pretty transparent example of why people might not want to undermine their own worldview - it can lead to conflicts with community and problems with some interpersonal relationships. That was just one example, though. Apparently this example isn't relevant to you?

 

[Kilgore Trout]

Doubt isn't so much good, as certainty is bad.


As always, context matters.

 

[The_Fisher_King]

And it is just your opinion that your particular deity is independent of man's imaginary or man's belief.

There are no "independent" evidences to support the existence of any deity. The existence of deities are hinged on personal "belief", and "faith" is as subjective as "personal opinion".

FAITH is not EVIDENCE.

I wasn't trying to provide any evidence for the existence of this or that deity. The post of yours that I was initially responding to - 'If the whole of mankind was to become extinct, tomorrow, then the reality is that all religions will cease to exist. And so will this imaginary deity vanished' - didn't seem to leave any room for doubt. I was just seeking to introduce the doubt back in via a counter-example, trying - perhaps not very well! - to emphasise the conditional nature of my propositions.

My faith - my confidence - that my relationship to The God/dess, and my experiences of that relationship, are very real is arguably a kind of evidence, albeit a very personal kind. I agree that this is very different from an independent, more universal kind of evidence. But it doesn't make it any less real, any less important, for me.

 

[gnostic]

I wasn't trying to provide any evidence for the existence of this or that deity. The post of yours that I was initially responding to - 'If the whole of mankind was to become extinct, tomorrow, then the reality is that all religions will cease to exist. And so will this imaginary deity vanished' - didn't seem to leave any room for doubt. I was just seeking to introduce the doubt back in via a counter-example, trying - perhaps not very well! - to emphasise the conditional nature of my propositions.

My faith - my confidence - that my relationship to The God/dess, and my experiences of that relationship, are very real is arguably a kind of evidence, albeit a very personal kind. I agree that this is very different from an independent, more universal kind of evidence. But it doesn't make it any less real, any less important, for me.

I didn't say that what you feel is not real.

I just don't think what you or anyone "believe" to be real, unless it is possible to verify what you believing.

And what people believe don't count as "evidence", it is called faith.

Until you understand that faith is not synonymous with evidence or with fact, which I find that some believers can't seem to comprehend, we are going to argue in circle.

For some believers, they are capable to doubt, and therefore question their faiths. But for others, they think all doubts are "bad", creationists for example, and they will go to any length or expense to protect their belief, like lying.

 

[Shad]

How am i twisting words? Qur'an mentions universe expanding.

And it is We Who have constructed the heaven with might, and verily, it is We Who are steadily expanding it. (Qur'an, 51:47)

Modern injection thus post hoc

Qur'an mentions water cycle:
… We send down from heaven pure water so that by it We can bring a dead land to life and give drink to many of the animals and people We created. (Qur'an, 25:48-49)
And We sent down blessed water from the sky and made gardens grow by it and grain for harvesting. (Qur'an, 50:9)

Does mention not evaporation thus is not the water cycle as we know it now. All this verse says is "God did it".

It is Allah Who sends the winds which stir up clouds which He spreads about the sky however He wills. He forms them into dark clumps and you see the rain come pouring out from the middle of them. When He makes it fall on those of His servants He wills, they rejoice. (Qur'an, 30:48)

Again no mention of evaporation and another "God did it" argument.

Have you not seen how Allah drives along the clouds, then joins them together, then makes them into a stack, and then you see the rain come out of it? And He sends down from the sky mountain masses [of clouds] with cold hail in them, striking with it anyone He wills and averting it from anyone He wills. The brightness of His lightning almost blinds the sight. (Qur'an, 24:43)

Again no mention of evaporation and another "God did it" argument.
http://water.usgs.gov/edu/watercyclesummary.html

Thales, Anaxagoras, Herodotus, Hippocrates, Plato, and Aristotle all wrote about the water cycle centuries before Islam even started

 

[Jabar]

Modern injection thus post hoc



Does mention not evaporation thus is not the water cycle as we know it now. All this verse says is "God did it".



Again no mention of evaporation and another "God did it" argument.



Again no mention of evaporation and another "God did it" argument.
http://water.usgs.gov/edu/watercyclesummary.html

Thales, Anaxagoras, Herodotus, Hippocrates, Plato, and Aristotle all wrote about the water cycle centuries before Islam even started

Qur'an is not a science book, obviously it does not say all that scientific terminology however Allah is doing it, he is not going to say all the things science says. Allah All-Mighty just does it, Qur'an is not a science book. It says he has created water just as the water cycle is, and said it is a blessing and it is.

 

[Shad]

Qur'an is not a science book, obviously it does not say all that scientific terminology however Allah is doing it, he is not going to say all the things science says. Allah All-Mighty just does it, Qur'an is not a science book. It says he has created water just as the water cycle is, and said it is a blessing and it is.

Yet you claimed scientific miracles. So if the Quran leaves out details that the scientific understanding of the water cycle, such as evaporation, then it is not a scientific miracle. All it is say is God did it and you looking for whatever you can shove into God did it and ignore the basic argument of God did it. More post hoc rationalizations. Vague statements become detailed statements after the fact. It doesn't explain anything of value, just God did it.

 

[Jabar]

Yet you claimed scientific miracles. So if the Quran leaves out details that the scientific understanding of the water cycle, such as evaporation, then it is not a scientific miracle. All it is say is God did it and you looking for whatever you can shove into God did it and ignore the basic argument of God did it. More post hoc rationalizations. Vague statements become detailed statements after the fact. It doesn't explain anything of value, just God did it.

It does not leave out detailed understanding of water cycle. Look you should stop saying it is vague because what you do is try to always come up with a irrelevant way to try and prove the Qur'an wrong. Yes, Qur'an has science in it. But that does not mean it is a science book, The water cycle is shown easily then how science puts it. Allah does not care about everything that is involved, he just did it. But he explained what he did when doing it and it fits the water cycle perfectly. On the other hand science has nothing to show what causes all that but randomness which is not logical. You are just arrogant because you object the belief in a creator even with a taste of your own medicine (science). Science is not absolute at all, it is flawed and lacked unlike the Qur'an an instruction manual for living the true life.

 

[The_Fisher_King]

And what people believe don't count as "evidence", it is called faith.

Until you understand that faith is not synonymous with evidence or with fact, which I find that some believers can't seem to comprehend, we are going to argue in circle.

For some believers, they are capable to doubt, and therefore question their faiths. But for others, they think all doubts are "bad", creationists for example, and they will go to any length or expense to protect their belief, like lying.

I agree that faith is not synonymous with evidence. I am simply arguing that there are different kinds of evidence. And as I said in my post, I accept that even if my faith qualifies as a certain kind of evidence - and even if the existence of The God/dess is a fact for me - it does not constitute evidence that can be independently verified. But I'm fine with that.

I certainly have doubts. Do I think having doubts is 'bad'? Ultimately, no. Insofar as doubting things is related to questioning things, I doubt just about everything. I have questioned - and continue to question - just about everything. For me, the one thing, the only thing, I am committed to is finding the Truth (if there is such a thing). That has certainly included questioning the existence of The God/dess, and whether the voices I hear come from The God/dess and the Devil. Insofar as some of my doubts have shaken me to the core of my being, and taken me to some very dark places indeed, certain kinds of doubts and certain kinds of questioning can be a scary road to travel. But ultimately worth it in the end.

 

[Shad]

It does not leave out detailed understanding of water cycle. Look you should stop saying it is vague because what you do is try to always come up with a irrelevant way to try and prove the Qur'an wrong. Yes, Qur'an has science in it. But that does not mean it is a science book, The water cycle is shown easily then how science puts it. Allah does not care about everything that is involved, he just did it. But he explained what he did when doing it and it fits the water cycle perfectly.

It provides zero mechanics instead it it propose a god of the gaps fallacy. No mention of evaporation at all. You then take this god of the gaps and use modern knowledge to fill in gaps, nothing more. Every verse is a simple observation anyone can make then attaches a fallacy to it. If the Quran had science in it there would be not God of the gaps fallacies yet the Quran is full of such fallacious reasoning. It is no better than saying magic fairies make it rain.

On the other hand science has nothing to show what causes all that but randomness which is not logical. You are just arrogant because you object the belief in a creator even with a taste of your own medicine (science). Science is not absolute at all, it is flawed and lacked unlike the Qur'an an instruction manual for living the true life.

Science is not required to do so. You propose an absolute for science which has no such view thus your are projecting your views on to science then crying wolf. You have shifted the burden of proof and moving the goalpost to cover your post hoc rationalization. You argument is fallacious. You confuse arrogance with actually knowing what the water cycle is and rejecting God did it fallacies the Quran uses and that you accept. This is a problem with your thinking, not mine. Again God did it is a fallacy and provides no explanatory power what so ever thus is not scientific at all. The Quran is still flawed as it provides zero mechanics, all it says is God did it, nothing more.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_of_the_gaps

Do note that each verse about the water cycle substituted an actually mechanic in nature, the real water cycle, for God did it. Which is exactly the fallacy linked above.

 

[Jabar]

It provides zero mechanics instead it it propose a god of the gaps fallacy. No mention of evaporation at all. You then take this god of the gaps and use modern knowledge to fill in gaps, nothing more. Every verse is a simple observation anyone can make then attaches a fallacy to it. If the Quran had science in it there would be not God of the gaps fallacies yet the Quran is full of such fallacious reasoning. It is no better than saying magic fairies make it rain.





Science is not required to do so. You propose an absolute for science which has no such view thus your are projecting your views on to science then crying wolf. You have shifted the burden of proof and moving the goalpost to cover your post hoc rationalization. You argument is fallacious. You confuse arrogance with actually knowing what the water cycle is and rejecting God did it fallacies the Quran uses and that you accept. This is a problem with your thinking, not mine. Again God did it is a fallacy and provides no explanatory power what so ever thus is not scientific at all. The Quran is still flawed as it provides zero mechanics, all it says is God did it, nothing more.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_of_the_gaps

Do note that each verse about the water cycle substituted an actually mechanic in nature, the real water cycle, for God did it. Which is exactly the fallacy linked above.

Haha, once again water cycle is in the Qur'an. It did not just say God did it, there were steps, if you actually read the verses. However, remember Qur'an is not a science book and it still fits modern science. The way you want the Qur'an to say things is complete science which the Qur'an is not, it is superior to science and science is very flawed compared to creationistic belief. I think you do not understand what a fallacy is. The Qur'an has no errors and is approved by modern science.

 

[Shad]

Haha, once again water cycle is in the Qur'an. It did not just say God did it, there were steps, if you actually read the verses. However, remember Qur'an is not a science book and it still fits modern science. The way you want the Qur'an to say things is complete science which the Qur'an is not, it is superior to science and science is very flawed compared to creationistic belief. I think you do not understand what a fallacy is. The Qur'an has no errors and is approved by modern science.

Actually it does since it mentions repeated how God is doing X rather than the mechanic in nature doing X. That is the god of the gaps, nothing more. Each verse is a basic observation anyone can make then make the assumption God does it, nothing more.

Seems like you can not even read the link to the fallacy. Try again son.

I already showed the error with the BB verse you brought up before. Earth and Heaven were one before cloven asunder, separate after. Yet this places the Earth at the BB rather than 9 billion years later as the event is the separation of the twon

 

[Jabar]

Actually it does since it mentions repeated how God is doing X rather than the mechanic in nature doing X. That is the god of the gaps, nothing more. Each verse is a basic observation anyone can make then make the assumption God does it, nothing more.

Seems like you can not even read the link to the fallacy. Try again son.

I already showed the error with the BB verse you brought up before. Earth and Heaven were one before cloven asunder, separate after. Yet this places the Earth at the BB rather than 9 billion years later as the event is the separation of the twon

Look, all i will tell you is to read the Qur'an with understanding and you will find it truth.

 

[paarsurrey]

Is having doubts "bad"?

Yes, but:
Atheism/Agnosticism/Skepticism are not even in doubt, they are in confusion.
Regards