Is God a Mystery that Will Never be Solved?

[Politesse]

It seems to me that, mainly for epistemic reasons, god is a mystery which will never be solved, although -- given human nature -- many people will endlessly seek to arrive at firm convictions about god.

Comments?

BONUS QUESTION: Are there benefits to being uncertain about god?

To ruthlessly plagiarize Ian Stewart, if God were so simple that a human mind could comprehend him, he would not be capable of creating a mind. Why imagine that the source of every infinite complexity of this universe would ever be in fully in our grasp?

But there is much joy in the attempt. There is quite a lot of ground between no knowledge and all knowledge, when the subject is infinite in scope. As a scientist, I have no happier moment than when I realize the most recent answer has led to an abundance of new questions, and my experiences of divine knowledge have been of a similar character.

 

[Thief]

Why belief? Are you not certain that you are here, now? You wouldn't know that via belief, but via consciousness; that is to say, via seeing what is, rather than forming beliefs and opinions about what is.

so...are you trying affirm yourself?
or are you trying to believe in me?

 

[godnotgod]

We are selves, all humans. Why isn't that obvious!

The self doesn't have to be egocentric. Humility is a quality of the individual self.

I'm me, you are you. Distinctly so. I delight in my individuality and uniqueness.

Why must I lose self, when self is all I am.

How can you lose that which does not exist to begin with?

'self' is an illusion. Can you tell me where it is located, and who it is that is locating it with the intention of losing it?

 

[godnotgod]

so...are you trying affirm yourself?
or are you trying to believe in me?

Where is the self that can be affirmed or denied? Where is the 'you' that one needs to believe in?

 

[osgart]

'self' is an illusion. Can you tell me where it is located, and who it is that is locating it?

The self is known by experience through the heart of love, and by way of reason and the cares we develope. And the understandings we cultivate. It is an effect that is knowable, by way of what is taken personally, and non personally. Location is irrelevant mostly. The form of the body tells us we are a single entity.

 

[godnotgod]

The self is known by experience through the heart of love, and by way of reason and the cares we develope. And the understandings we cultivate. It is an effect that is knowable, by way of what is taken personally, and non personally. Location is irrelevant mostly. The form of the body tells us we are a single entity.

Who is it that knows the self?

 

[Thief]

Where is the self that can be affirmed or denied? Where is the 'you' that one needs to believe in?

empty questions.....

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Hi Milton. A non existent thing has no signs. For instance the proof the sun exists is its light and warmth. A painting proves that there is a painter.

When we look at physics or the structure, order and organisation of molecules, atoms and universes such organization undoubtedly proves a designer and organizer. Just because the painting cannot understand or visualize the painter does not mean the painter does not exist. Although the painting itself is living proof and testimony that there is a painter the painting could say ‘I reject the concept of the painter because I do not see him’. Of course the painting never can know the painter and will always remain deluded that there never was a painter even though it’s very existence is proof.

Yet, although we, like the painting deny a painter, we ourselves are proof there is one.

Now that we have established that there is a God or a Designer or a Creator by the fact we did not bring ourselves into existence from nothingness which is not in existence to be able to perform any action such as creation, we can examine the Words of the Prophets and Messengers to learn more about God.

The Prophets and Messengers have been chosen by God to be Intermediaries between Him and us. Because we do not have the capacity to directly communicate with God, God uses the Prophets to communicate with us.

We are told that the Prophets and Messengers are not ordinary human beings only but were preexistent and not initially born here so in some mystical way they have been endowed with the ability and capacity to relate to us things about God according to our capacity and understanding in the time and age we live in, in each age as we develop and evolve we learn more about God.

Hm. Since nothing pops from thin air, nothing is created but recycled from alresdy existing elements to make something new to our eyes but same-ol' to nature. There wouldnt be a painter for the painting because that implies the painter made the chemicals from the earth to make the paint, made the canvas and paper that came from trees which he made too. It also assumes his tools were his creation.

Its an illusion that the painting was created. Its more a gathering pf puzzle pieces into a puzzle rather than saying the person who created the puzzle also creates the earth material used to make it.

If god exists he wouldnt need physical worldly historical messangers; he would exist on his own accord. Once you define god by wordly things, what is god apart from the people who represent him?

If god is an essense, without physical messengers, how can you know the attributes and virtues if this god unless he is defined by people (messengers) rather than having the ability to have his own meaning apart from his creation as a creator?

 

[Trailblazer]

We are selves, all humans. Why isn't that obvious!

The self doesn't have to be egocentric. Humility is a quality of the individual self.

I'm me, you are you. Distinctly so. I delight in my individuality and uniqueness.

Why must I lose self, when self is all I am.

Hello again!

I do not know the context of this post since I cannot see who you were replying to, but it caught my eye….

I do not think you should lose self because then you would no longer exist. That is impossible to do anyway because the self is the soul and it is eternal. Your individuality and uniqueness will go with you when you die because that is the sum total of who you are, your personality, your soul, your self. Your soul continues to exist after your body dies and that is why it is so important to find your true self while in this mortal world…

The entire purpose of life’s journey in this mortal world is so you can find your true self. That is one reason God sends Messengers, to educate us, so we will understand who we really are as spiritual beings and seek to acquire those attributes.

“The Purpose of the one true God, exalted be His glory, in revealing Himself unto menis to lay bare those gems that lie hidden within the mine of their true and inmost selves. That the divers communions of the earth, and the manifold systems of religious belief, should never be allowed to foster the feelings of animosity among men, is, in this Day, of the essence of the Faith of God and His Religion.” Gleanings, p. 287

However, sadly, many people go through life not even caring who they really are, because they live for the material world and all that is therein; they live as if their body is who they are, when in reality it is only a vehicle that houses the soul, the only entity that continues to exist after we die.

Matthew 16:24-26 “Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it. For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?”

 

[osgart]

Hello again!

I do not know the context of this post since I cannot see who you were replying to, but it caught my eye….

I do not think you should lose self because then you would no longer exist. That is impossible to do anyway because the self is the soul and it is eternal. Your individuality and uniqueness will go with you when you die because that is the sum total of who you are, your personality, your soul, your self. Your soul continues to exist after your body dies and that is why it is so important to find your true self while in this mortal world…

The entire purpose of life’s journey in this mortal world is so you can find your true self. That is one reason God sends Messengers, to educate us, so we will understand who we really are as spiritual beings and seek to acquire those attributes.

“The Purpose of the one true God, exalted be His glory, in revealing Himself unto menis to lay bare those gems that lie hidden within the mine of their true and inmost selves. That the divers communions of the earth, and the manifold systems of religious belief, should never be allowed to foster the feelings of animosity among men, is, in this Day, of the essence of the Faith of God and His Religion.” Gleanings, p. 287

However, sadly, many people go through life not even caring who they really are, because they live for the material world and all that is therein; they live as if their body is who they are, when in reality it is only a vehicle that houses the soul, the only entity that continues to exist after we die.

Matthew 16:24-26 “Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it. For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?”

I certainly hope you are right!

I have a desire for eternal life!

I subjectively sense things that I find inexplicable, but for some type of soul.

I however do not feel that this universe is anything special. It's just that some inexplicable force causes life in it. It can't be measured by instruments of any kind.

I can't seem to reconcile the world with there being a creator God. I do however see intelligence in nature. As if something is desperate to live. Something that spawns life. A primordial intelligence.

To me if a god exists, god's not from around here.

 

[Trailblazer]

I certainly hope you are right!

I have a desire for eternal life!

I subjectively sense things that I find inexplicable, but for some type of soul.

I however do not feel that this universe is anything special. It's just that some inexplicable force causes life in it. It can't be measured by instruments of any kind.

I can't seem to reconcile the world with there being a creator God. I do however see intelligence in nature. As if something is desperate to live. Something that spawns life. A primordial intelligence.

To me if a god exists, god's not from around here.

No worries, you will have eternal life.

Yes, the nature of the soul is inexplicable which is why you sense it but cannot quite put it into words...

This mortal world of dust is not that special, but there will be many more worlds to which we travel after this...

“O My servants! Sorrow not if, in these days and on this earthly plane, things contrary to your wishes have been ordained and manifested by God, for days of blissful joy, of heavenly delight, are assuredly in store for you. Worlds, holy and spiritually glorious, will be unveiled to your eyes. You are destined by Him, in this world and hereafter, to partake of their benefits, to share in their joys, and to obtain a portion of their sustaining grace. To each and every one of them you will, no doubt, attain.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 329

“As to thy question concerning the worlds of God. Know thou of a truth that the worlds of God are countless in their number, and infinite in their range. None can reckon or comprehend them except God, the All-Knowing, the All-Wise.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 151-152

No, I do not think God is from around here either... He is up in the spiritual realm, far, far above where we can find Him. God is good at hiding...

 

[godnotgod]

empty questions.....

I am only responding your your empty claim that there exists this thing called the 'self' that you further claim can be affirmed. You can affirm that it does exist, but what are you basing that affirmation upon?

 

[godnotgod]

......they live as if their body is who they are, when in reality it is only a vehicle that houses the soul, the only entity that continues to exist after we die.

Sounds like you are saying that the 'soul' is a definite thing which is housed in the physical body. We normally think of 'soul' as not of a material nature. So tell me: how can the physical body contain a non-material entity? I mean, it's not like the body is a vessel as in 'cup', that is containing a material substance like water or jello. The soul is not of a material nature. So I don't see how this 'soul' can be contained. If anything, what we think of as 'soul' is actually non-local while maintaining the body. You know. Sort of like the vast sea is what maintains the fish, both inside and outside. We just make a mistake in creating a finite 'self' out of our limited experience and vision. Even though all unique snowflakes are composed of universal water, it would be ridiculous, were snowflakes able to speak, for one to assert that it is a self, when it's true nature is formless, universal water. Likewise, our true nature is not the finite limited self called 'I', it is universal consciousness, not limited to containment in a temporal body.

BTW, it has been scientifically proven that the brain is capable of non-local communication with another brain. IOW, consciousness is non-local.

 

[godnotgod]

I have a desire for eternal life!
.

Why do you suppose you are without eternal life now?

 

[godnotgod]

This mortal world of dust is not that special......
God is good at hiding...

Perhaps God is hiding within all material forms, which you say are nothing special. What better place for The Miraculous to hide than in The Ordinary? If that is the case, God has always been right at hand, right under our noses, but we are always looking elsewhere. After all, Yeshua tried to tell us:

"The Kingdom of God is within you"

But no one believes it. Why don't we believe it? Because our minds are conditioned not to, by science, by religion, by our parents, and others, because we see reality via a subject/object split in which the world is seen as a collection of 'things' which have no consciousness.

"The Universe is The Absolute, as seen through the glass of Time, Space and Causation."
Vivekenanda

 

[loverofhumanity]

Hm. Since nothing pops from thin air, nothing is created but recycled from alresdy existing elements to make something new to our eyes but same-ol' to nature. There wouldnt be a painter for the painting because that implies the painter made the chemicals from the earth to make the paint, made the canvas and paper that came from trees which he made too. It also assumes his tools were his creation.

Its an illusion that the painting was created. Its more a gathering pf puzzle pieces into a puzzle rather than saying the person who created the puzzle also creates the earth material used to make it.

If god exists he wouldnt need physical worldly historical messangers; he would exist on his own accord. Once you define god by wordly things, what is god apart from the people who represent him?

If god is an essense, without physical messengers, how can you know the attributes and virtues if this god unless he is defined by people (messengers) rather than having the ability to have his own meaning apart from his creation as a creator?

It’s because we can’t have direct contact with God that we are sent Intermediaries. My understanding is that God speaks to us in a manner we can understand. In this life we only are able to understand what we do in human form so God sends us Messengers Who appear to be human.

If we had the capacity to know God directly then there would be no need for Him to send Representatives in human form.

He speaks to us according to our capacity not His. That’s just my humble understanding.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

If we had the capacity to know God directly then there would be no need for Him to send Representatives in human form.

This is pretty much my point. If god cannot contact yoj directly as with most other religions then that physical wordly person is your only definition of god. Unless god is Defined by people, I dont see how he would have "godly" virtues and attributes when the ones you discribe come from man.

Unless an essense has love alreadyband sense it theough his messengers? If so, then what is this essense? If not, messengers are people/man. God is defined by man not his own accord. Thats how I understand the role of messengers and prophets.

 

[loverofhumanity]

This is pretty much my point. If god cannot contact yoj directly as with most other religions then that physical wordly person is your only definition of god. Unless god is Defined by people, I dont see how he would have "godly" virtues and attributes when the ones you discribe come from man.

Unless an essense has love alreadyband sense it theough his messengers? If so, then what is this essense? If not, messengers are people/man. God is defined by man not his own accord. Thats how I understand the role of messengers and prophets.

Of the true nature of the Prophets we are told their bodies are human but their Soul was not conceived at conception like ours, but was pre existent. In that pre existence their Souls were given the ability and capacity to receive direct revelations from God.

Although They then had to translate that Revelation into a form we could understand, Their Words were endowed with an invisible spiritual force.

So for instance. If a million people in the past said....
‘ The world is but one country and mankind it’s citizens’, as these words had no spiritual force behind them, no results were forthcoming.

But when a Manifestation of God uttered these words then all humanity obeyed them and served these words. Science brought about world communication and technology such as the internet and world travel to make the world one country. We now have a global village once it has been uttered by a Manifestation not before.

This is the unique power of the Words spoken by These Beings no one else. These are the powers of the Word of God operating in the world right now forging a path to world unity and reconciliation. This force is like the air we breathe. It’s everwhere doing its work, breaking down barriers, renewing civilization.

Every single letter proceeding out of the mouth of God is indeed a mother letter, and every word uttered by Him Who is the Well Spring of Divine Revelation is a mother word.

All the wondrous achievements ye now witness are the direct consequences of the Revelation of this Name.

Through the mere revelation of the word “Fashioner,” issuing forth from His lips and proclaiming His attribute to mankind, such power is released as can generate, through successive ages, all the manifold arts which the hands of man can produce.

Every single letter proceeding from Our mouth is endowed with such regenerative power as to enable it to bring into existence a new creation—a creation the magnitude of which is inscrutable to all save God. He verily hath knowledge of all things.”

“It is in Our power, should We wish it, to enable a speck of floating dust to generate, in less than the twinkling of an eye, suns of infinite, of unimaginable splendor, to cause a dewdrop to develop into vast and numberless oceans, to infuse into every letter such a force as to empower it to unfold all the knowledge of past and future ages.”

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Of the true nature of the Prophets we are told their bodies are human but their Soul was not conceived at conception like ours, but was pre existent. In that pre existence their Souls were given the ability and capacity to receive direct revelations from God.

Although They then had to translate that Revelation into a form we could understand, Their Words were endowed with an invisible spiritual force.

So for instance. If a million people in the past said....
‘ The world is but one country and mankind it’s citizens’, as these words had no spiritual force behind them, no results were forthcoming.

But when a Manifestation of God uttered these words then all humanity obeyed them and served these words. Science brought about world communication and technology such as the internet and world travel to make the world one country. We now have a global village once it has been uttered by a Manifestation not before.

This is the unique power of the Words spoken by These Beings no one else. These are the powers of the Word of God operating in the world right now forging a path to world unity and reconciliation. This force is like the air we breathe. It’s everwhere doing its work, breaking down barriers, renewing civilization.

Every single letter proceeding out of the mouth of God is indeed a mother letter, and every word uttered by Him Who is the Well Spring of Divine Revelation is a mother word.

All the wondrous achievements ye now witness are the direct consequences of the Revelation of this Name.

Through the mere revelation of the word “Fashioner,” issuing forth from His lips and proclaiming His attribute to mankind, such power is released as can generate, through successive ages, all the manifold arts which the hands of man can produce.

Every single letter proceeding from Our mouth is endowed with such regenerative power as to enable it to bring into existence a new creation—a creation the magnitude of which is inscrutable to all save God. He verily hath knowledge of all things.”

“It is in Our power, should We wish it, to enable a speck of floating dust to generate, in less than the twinkling of an eye, suns of infinite, of unimaginable splendor, to cause a dewdrop to develop into vast and numberless oceans, to infuse into every letter such a force as to empower it to unfold all the knowledge of past and future ages.”

Shrugs. I always wondered when or what year did everyone no longer has the ability to be a greater being. If there were great beings then there should be today. The year lapse between bahaullah's son (and grandson?) and today isnt That long ago.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Shrugs. I always wondered when or what year did everyone no longer has the ability to be a greater being. If there were great beings then there should be today. The year lapse between bahaullah's son (and grandson?) and today isnt That long ago.

What is our course? What are we being prepared for that we are sent here to learn lessons with a physical body only to discard it?
Is that all our destiny is to live and die or reach some sort of personal bliss? All this set up just for that?

We are told we will traverse many worlds after this one gaining more knowledge and becoming greater.

Let’s say for arguments sake we are all conceived at conception in this world right? When we reach or are born into the next world aren’t we then ‘pre existent souls’ as we were already born here?

Now how many worlds did the Manifestations traverse before they were prepared for this one? We don’t know. Does each of us have some great purpose that will unfold as we pass through the many worlds of God? Very likely. Is it revealed to us? Usually not.

We might not know now what that purpose is but I think it’s safe to say we have an enormous glorious destiny ahead of us. In another world after learning so many lessons you might become a Da Vinci or some other great soul that renders wonderful service to that world whatever it may be.

We are told that there are many worlds apart from this one with Manifestations. Where do they come from? God has obviously chosen them like He did Christ or Baha’u’llah so our greatness, although not yet revealed to us may unfold in the course of time.

So we can become greater beings from our own efforts but as far as I know Manifestation can only be appointed and selected by God.

I believe that when we are ready, our greatness will reveal itself and not until then. It may be in this world or in some other one.

But what is true greatness? In my opinion it’s the ability to be humble and self effaced before both God and man. When we reach that level of spirituality that we become as nothing then we are truly great.

So our goal in life should be to become the embodiment of nothingness. Empty of self. Perfectly humble.

This is just my own idea. A lot of the concepts come from our Writings. I’m just speculating that’s all. I really don’t know anything for sure.