Is Faith Valuable?

[nonbeliever_92]

I was originally going to title this "Is Faith a Virtrue" but decided against it.

Okay First of all:
In this thread I will define "Faith" as a belief/trust in someone or something and accepting it as true or untrue even if it goes against counter-evidence, reason, and/or logic. If you disagree with this definition of faith, please assert your own definition of faith before you post and if possible provide an example.

Now:
I wish to ask if faith and simple belief are valuable or at least more valuable than scepticism and rational thinking.

I believe that faith is invaluable; my reason why is that I believe that rational thinking and independent thinking holds more ground than believing in something just because it makes you comfortable or just becuase you think you "know" how the universe works although there is an abundance of counter-evidence and a non-evidence. I believe that a rational ignorance about reality is infinitely much better than a religious pretense about reality. (And yes, i would equate religion with irrationality.)

 

[Just_me_Mike]

I wish to ask if faith and simple belief are valuable or at least more valuable than scepticism and rational thinking.

In this world, no faith and simple belief is not more valuable, but to get in the world to come it is the most valuable.

 

[nonbeliever_92]

In this world, no faith and simple belief is not more valuable, but to get in the world to come it is the most valuable.

the world to come? can you provide evidence that this world exist or do you rely on faith in your belief that this world exist, because then, you have no argument.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

I believe that faith is invaluable; my reason why is that I believe that rational thinking and independent thinking holds more ground than believing in something just because it makes you comfortable or just becuase you think you "know" how the universe works although there is an abundance of counter-evidence and a non-evidence. I believe that a rational ignorance about reality is infinitely much better than a religious pretense about reality. (And yes, i would equate religion with irrationality.)

Invaluable means "great value", not "without value."

That being said, the value of anything is highly subjective depending on the individual and what is needed in a given situation. I find faith to be of little value - but hey, one man's trash is another man's treasure.

 

[Just_me_Mike]

the world to come? can you provide evidence that this world exist

Why do you ask questions you already know the answers too?

 

[sojourner]

I was originally going to title this "Is Faith a Virtrue" but decided against it.

Okay First of all:
In this thread I will define "Faith" as a belief/trust in someone or something and accepting it as true or untrue even if it goes against counter-evidence, reason, and/or logic. If you disagree with this definition of faith, please assert your own definition of faith before you post and if possible provide an example.

Now:
I wish to ask if faith and simple belief are valuable or at least more valuable than scepticism and rational thinking.

I believe that faith is invaluable; my reason why is that I believe that rational thinking and independent thinking holds more ground than believing in something just because it makes you comfortable or just becuase you think you "know" how the universe works although there is an abundance of counter-evidence and a non-evidence. I believe that a rational ignorance about reality is infinitely much better than a religious pretense about reality. (And yes, i would equate religion with irrationality.)

Anything taken to an exreme becomes a hindrance. That sort of faith is fine, as long as it's kept in perspective and not used as the benchmark for an operative paradigm for the world.

 

[ManTimeForgot]

Faith is a virtue. Yes, even the way you have defined it. The "problem" stems from what people place their faith in and the extent to which they allow their faith to be.


Too much of any "virtue" and it clearly becomes a vice. Too much honesty and no one will confide in you or evil individuals will be able to take advantage of you or other people because you are unable to "shade the truth." Similarly too much faith leads one to discount tests of character, which are imperative to growth of personality (and spiritual growth if you allow for it to exist) and to ignore the voice of reason/wisdom in areas where it should be dominant.


Faith is a virtue when placed correctly. I have faith in humanity's future. I have faith in humanity's ability to overcome its problems. I have faith that love in the end does conquer all (not just romantic love). I have faith that the patient, persistent person in the end always gets their due. (I might also ask you to take a look at the "Theological Nonrealism" thread for ideas how faith in a deity can be a good thing)

These beliefs predispose me to give people the benefit of the doubt more often than not, to try and act for other's benefit when I can, and to not give up on doing what I know to be correct. Our beliefs predispose us to actions of one kind or another. Having faith in Good (some kind of external moral good) will lead us to err on the side of right even when presented with evidence of the horrible ills and failings of humanity and life in general. And isn't that a good thing?

MTF

 

[TheKnight]

Now:
I wish to ask if faith and simple belief are valuable or at least more valuable than scepticism and rational thinking.

No. Faith is not valuable. They have a word for accepting things without any rationale for doing so, it's called ignorance.

 

[MoonWater]

As you define it I would say no, faith is not valuable but is instead a vice. But then I would call what you have defined "blind faith" rather than simply "faith". The difference being that blind faith is something one will cling to regardless of what happens(I would say that a person who stays with an abusive spouse, insisting that the spouse really loves them is someone with blind faith). Meanwhile I would say faith is something one will cling to only up to a point where it would be stupid, unreasonable, or even downright dangerous to continue holding it(In the example above the person decides to leave the abusive spouse I would then say she had faith when she married him but now that that faith has become unreasonable and dangerous because of the abuse she has left him. She didn't let her faith blind her to what he was really like.)

Personally I would define "faith" as trust which comes about through reason and evidence but also comes from the emotional aspects which arise from personal experience and relationships. An example to clarify would be to say that I trust gravity to keep me grounded to the earth. But I would not call it faith because there is no emotion involved in this trust, gravity would do it's job regardless and I have no feelings with regards to gravity. Now an example of faith: I would say I have faith in my boyfriend not to cheat on me. I call it faith rather than trust because there very much is an emotional involvement there and without the emotions the trust would not and could not exist as the emotions I have are just as much reason for me to have such faith in him as my personal experience with him as a person.

So basically I see "trust" as belief in someone or something based solely on reason, logic, and objective evidence. Meanwhile I see "faith" as belief in something or someone based on reason, emotion, and subjective evidence. I feel reason is involved in both, the only difference is the emotion. In a sense faith could be viewed as a compromise between these two normally conflicting sides within us. Viewed in this light I would consider it highly valuable. After all I wouldn't be able to have a relationship with my boyfriend, or with anyone for that matter, if I didn't have faith in them.

 

[Riverwolf]

Why do you ask questions you already know the answers too?

Uh, Magneto, this world is an illusion. ^_^

 

[Heneni]

Faith is worth more than gold for those who have their treasure in heaven. But we all have faith in some degree or another in something or another. Faith is to trust something or someone to do what it said it would do, or work like it is said it will work.

When you turn the egnition you have faith that your car will start. Unless your car is is one of the scrapheap supermodels in which case you will be dissapointed and end up having no faith in it to start.

You might have faith in your friends, to be there or do something for you

You have faith in politicians (that is a bad move)

People have faith in brands and or companies with good track records. People have faith, so its not a foreign thing here on this earth. Now before you say that it is easy to have faith in things that you can see, i would disagree. You cannot see electricity but when you flip the switch you have faith that it will work. You cant see the wind but you have faith that it will blow. Because it has blown since the time you were born. You have faith in your body to breath for you but you cant see the air, nor can you see your lungs or the mechanism by which it works.

We have faith in people to do what they say they will do. You dont wait till they do it before you have faith in them. When the act is done, you dont have to trust that they will do it, it would already have been done.

So faith is what children of god, have in an invisible yet real god, and when he appears we wont need faith anymore because we would have seen him with our own eyes. So to a christian faith is tremendously valuable because it proves that we have trust in god before we have seen him. ''Blessed are those who have not seen and yet believe''

Heneni

 

[Cordoba]

When rational thinking leads to faith, you get the best of both

Faith then becomes extremely valuable, not only for inner peace and happiness, but also on the intellectual level

From a Muslim perspective, there is no contradiction ...........

 

[BruceDLimber]

Greetings!

I would simply point out that the Baha'i scriptures state:

"Faith is conscious knowledge."

Peace,

bruce

 

[nonbeliever_92]

Anything taken to an exreme becomes a hindrance. That sort of faith is fine, as long as it's kept in perspective and not used as the benchmark for an operative paradigm for the world.

If I am interpreting this correctly, we agree everyone has a right to believe what they believe, but when they try to impose their beliefs on others, it becomes a problem, such as using religious reasons to make laws that inhibit the rights of others. Unfortunately, however, many religious people don't seem to get this concept. Most observedly, from my standpoint, in America.

 

[nonbeliever_92]

Invaluable means "great value", not "without value."

That being said, the value of anything is highly subjective depending on the individual and what is needed in a given situation. I find faith to be of little value - but hey, one man's trash is another man's treasure.

Sorry, meant "without value."

Funny how value and worth are near synonyms but worhless and invaluble are antonyms.

 

[nonbeliever_92]

Why do you ask questions you already know the answers too?

it's "to" not "too"

 

[nonbeliever_92]

Too much of any "virtue" and it clearly becomes a vice. Too much honesty and no one will confide in you or evil individuals will be able to take advantage of you or other people because you are unable to "shade the truth." Similarly too much faith leads one to discount tests of character, which are imperative to growth of personality (and spiritual growth if you allow for it to exist) and to ignore the voice of reason/wisdom in areas where it should be dominant.

The voice of reason should be dominant when thinking about the existence of anything supernatural. And yes, to much of a good thing can be bad, and...?

Faith in anything without proper reason is bad, regardless of the varying "degrees" of "how much" faith there is. Faith is faith.

Faith is a virtue when placed correctly.

Faith in anything is unreasonable, i fail to see where faith can be placed "correctly." Please provide an example.

I have faith in humanity's future. I have faith in humanity's ability to overcome its problems. I have faith that love in the end does conquer all (not just romantic love). I have faith that the patient, persistent person in the end always gets their due. (I might also ask you to take a look at the "Theological Nonrealism" thread for ideas how faith in a deity can be a good thing)

I don't see how faith in humanity is equivalent to faith in a diety. In fact, I would go as far to say that your faith in humanity isn't really faith at all.

These beliefs predispose me to give people the benefit of the doubt more often than not, to try and act for other's benefit when I can, and to not give up on doing what I know to be correct. Our beliefs predispose us to actions of one kind or another. Having faith in Good (some kind of external moral good) will lead us to err on the side of right even when presented with evidence of the horrible ills and failings of humanity and life in general. And isn't that a good thing?

MTF

Good is subjective, I can believe it's "good" to stone my son to death if he ever disobeys me, I can believe it's "good" to cut off the right hand of someone who steals from me...

 

[nonbeliever_92]

thanks a lot

??? What???

 

[nonbeliever_92]

No. Faith is not valuable. They have a word for accepting things without any rationale for doing so, it's called ignorance.

But don't you have faith in your beliefs, Knight?

 

[nonbeliever_92]

As you define it I would say no, faith is not valuable but is instead a vice. But then I would call what you have defined "blind faith" rather than simply "faith". The difference being that blind faith is something one will cling to regardless of what happens(I would say that a person who stays with an abusive spouse, insisting that the spouse really loves them is someone with blind faith). Meanwhile I would say faith is something one will cling to only up to a point where it would be stupid, unreasonable, or even downright dangerous to continue holding it(In the example above the person decides to leave the abusive spouse I would then say she had faith when she married him but now that that faith has become unreasonable and dangerous because of the abuse she has left him. She didn't let her faith blind her to what he was really like.)

Faith and blind faith have no difference when you attempt to rationalize your religious beliefs.

Personally I would define "faith" as trust which comes about through reason and evidence but also comes from the emotional aspects which arise from personal experience and relationships.

Well, okay, if you define faith like that, but I have a different word for this kind of "faith": Inference. Basing a belief on past experiences and acquired knowledge, as well as reason is an intuitive estimation based on former observations. But if this inference is not testable, observable, or predictable, then it is a theory.

An example to clarify would be to say that I trust gravity to keep me grounded to the earth. But I would not call it faith because there is no emotion involved in this trust, gravity would do it's job regardless and I have no feelings with regards to gravity. Now an example of faith: I would say I have faith in my boyfriend not to cheat on me. I call it faith rather than trust because there very much is an emotional involvement there and without the emotions the trust would not and could not exist as the emotions I have are just as much reason for me to have such faith in him as my personal experience with him as a person.

These are inferences.

So basically I see "trust" as belief in someone or something based solely on reason, logic, and objective evidence. Meanwhile I see "faith" as belief in something or someone based on reason, emotion, and subjective evidence. I feel reason is involved in both, the only difference is the emotion. In a sense faith could be viewed as a compromise between these two normally conflicting sides within us. Viewed in this light I would consider it highly valuable. After all I wouldn't be able to have a relationship with my boyfriend, or with anyone for that matter, if I didn't have faith in them.

On the matter of your boyfriend, this "faith" is trust in that you have to build up trust, faith you can't until you have trust. And even then, it's just an inference.

Subjective evidence, isn't evidence at all. And reason and emotion can contradict each other.