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Is Democracy too much for the masses? (Nerd warning: references to A Game of Thrones ahead)

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
There is what I consider to be a lot of circunstantial evidence pointing towards an actual lack of capability of the general masses in fully accepting and supporting the rather ambitious concept of sovereign nations that democratically elect their own representatives and cooperate both internally and externally to attain better living conditions (or, for those more right-wing oriented, better individual prosperity).

Witness, for instance, how casually we fell from the general international good will of the after wars to the current silent acceptance of the need to outright kill whole movements and at least arguably nations.

An example that I find most revealing is the current popularity of a fictional character, Stannis Baratheon of the "Game of Thrones" TV series and the books that spawned it. While he is presented considerably more sympathetically in the series, which deviates from the books perhaps most of all for Stannis, even there he is a self-proclaimed "true King of Westeros" that thinks nothing of resorting to betrayal of his word and religious terrorism in order to further his ambitions.

Yet, because many see his claims of true blood claim as well-supported (and it may well be, although the evidence is somewhere between fully circunstantial and impossible to fully establish), he is perceived by many as justified in his barbaric actions. The fans simply take his claim of being a rightful King at face value, apparently satisfied by the notion that he is the true heir according to the letter of the law, regardless of his actions.

A similar situation is from the very widespread general perception that war and the supposed "defense" of a "nation" (a very artificial concept at the best of times) justifies remorseless killing.

Such perceptions are very plainly incompatible with the idea that nations are supposed to have consideration for their own people and for those they deal with.

Maybe we are simply not collectively capable of sustaining the huge populations of today without feeling homicidal and suicidal itches and hoping for the destruction of our rivals, or failing that our own, in "glorious" battle, be it in person or by proxy.

There are those who proposed that we seek better ways - the Pakistan/India conflict that led to the separation and the efforts of Badshah Khan and Gandhi to avoid its full manifestation come to mind - but to this day people seem to stubbornly refuse to even understand their message, much less cooperate with it.

Thoughts?
 

JRMcC

Active Member
I agree. It might be possible for democracies to flourish and be moral if they're small enough, but the USA is a total mess. You touched on this point in your post, but social attitudes are more powerful than truth or morality. For a democracy to function correctly the majority of people must be CORRECTLY INFORMED and have CONSISTENT morals.

There is too much to say about being correctly informed, my post would be too long! But that's a great point you brought up about killing in defense. United States is a bloodthirsty country. Yes, most of the violence in our movies is done in self defense or for supposedly moral reasons, but we love seeing the bad guys get brutally murdered. We like violence enough that we don't bother to question whether or not the people we fight overseas are actually the objective badguys. If CNN says they're bad we're willing to kill them at all costs, even if it kills thousands of innocent people. My point is that our being a democracy has no impact on our goodness as a country. Democracy seems to have utterly failed here.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
If CNN says they're bad we're willing to kill them at all costs, even if it kills thousands of innocent people. My point is that our being a democracy has no impact on our goodness as a country. Democracy seems to have utterly failed here.
Is it really a failure if the voters want violence, & then government delivers? But if this wasteful violence is wrong, how would something other than democracy prevent it? The PRC is non-democratic, & also rapacious & violent.
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
Is it really a failure if the voters want violence, & then government delivers?

Are you joking? Of course it is. How could it even conceivably not be a failure?


But if this wasteful violence is wrong, how would something other than democracy prevent it? The PRC is non-democratic, & also rapacious & violent.

You mean China? The solution, of course, is not simply enforcing non-democratic leadership. It is necessary to work at deeper levels of the society and actually nurture and develop actual moral and political values.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
Are you joking? Of course it is. How could it even conceivably not be a failure?
If the goal is to represent the will of the people, then it's a success. How do you define "success" in this context?
You mean China? The solution, of course, is not simply enforcing non-democratic leadership. It is necessary to work at deeper levels of the society and actually nurture and develop actual moral and political values.
You'll find that different countries & cultures will have moral & political values different from yours. How do you impose yours upon them? What if they plan to impose theirs on yours?
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
If the goal is to represent the will of the people, then it's a success. How do you define "success" in this context?

"Let's not be stupid, mass homicidal and self-destructive" is a good starting point.

I swear, you must be kidding...

You'll find that different countries & cultures will have moral & political values different from yours. How do you impose yours upon them? What if they plan to impose theirs on yours?

Dealing with things at that level, working with those concepts, is a self-defeating proposition.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
"Let's not be stupid, mass homicidal and self-destructive" is a good starting point.
I swear, you must be kidding...
If not being homicidal & self-destructive is your goal, then ditching democracy won't advance it.
Dealing with things at that level, working with those concepts, is a self-defeating proposition.
It's important to recognize that no matter how strongly you feel you're right about some value you hold, there will be a great many people who hold some contrary value just as strongly. Be prepared to defend yours.
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
If not being homicidal & self-destructive is your goal, then ditching democracy won't advance it.

I agree. That is why I am not proposing that.


It's important to recognize that no matter how strongly you feel you're right about some value you hold, there will be a great many people who hold some contrary value just as strongly. Be prepared to defend yours.

For what it is worth, I agree with that as well. But it really looks like I failed to make my point in the OP clear to you.
 

JRMcC

Active Member
Well I don't know what the real solution is, but it's a big problem when you have 300,000,000 people who are wrongly convinced that they have a functioning democracy that has the moral high ground on the world stage. Temporarily removing the system could be a good thing in the long run. It's easier when you destroy and then recreate rather than try to fix something that's horribly broken.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
It is very hard to establish democracies where there's no previous history of such, literacy is low, disparity of income is high, and resources are inadequate.
 

JRMcC

Active Member
So why continue with the rant? did it make you feel better?
It isn't going to change things

I don't know what you mean. This is a forum where people discuss things. Doesn't make me feel better really but I think it's important to share with others who might not have thought about it.
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
It is very hard to establish democracies where there's no previous history of such, literacy is low, disparity of income is high, and resources are inadequate.

Tell me about it. Brazil was a hereditary monarchy up until 1889, therefore 126 years ago.

According to our own Senate's website, we are already in our sixth Republican system since. The established order has always been so unstable and unreliable that major disruptions happened in 1934, 1937, 1946, 1967 and 1987.

It is rather pointless to expect immature, unwise masses to somehow elect and support wise and mature leaderships, or for that matter to know what to demand from them.
 

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
I do not think it is democracy that is at root fault in the current reality that the world's most powerful democracy has become a wolf preying on other nations for their resources. I think there are other factors at play. The most important of those factors in some crucial ways may be the rise of social engineering since the 1920s. Social engineering has become an immensely effective means whereby a relatively small handful of people with wealth and power can often decisively influence the "will of the people". In effect, it has in America especially helped create a situation in which the traditional democracy has been undermined and all but abolished while its outward trappings have been maintained as a facade. So I would argue that the OP is somewhat misleading to the extent, if any, that it looks at America today as an example of democracy. America today, and its behavior in the world, are best understood as an example of a plutocracy masquerading as a democracy.
 

CMike

Well-Known Member
Danereys Targareyen had the slaves turn on the masters in order to get their freedom. She helped lead revolts against the slaveholders.

English philosopher Edmund Burke said, "The only thing necessary for the triumph [of evil] is for good men to do nothing."

What if no one opposed the Nazis?

What if no one opposes the radical Islamists whose stated goal is to impose a one world caliph and people can either obey Islamic law or die?

War is sometimes necessary. Killing people is sometimes necessary.

There are evil people out there that need to be stopped using violence.
 
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