Is altruism really due to religious sensibility?

[Kenny]

And just to be clear: I'm not - in this thread, at least - suggesting that the Salvation Army doesn't do good work or that they shouldn't be supported.

We're off on this tangent because I pointed out to @KenS that - according to the article he linked to - "charitable" donations by Evangelicals predominantly go to churches, not to legitimate charities.

@KenS 's response of - effectively - "yeah, but the Salvation Army is a church and they do lots of charitable work" is a bit of a red herring: we can see from the financial statements he linked to that the US branches of the Salvation Army only took in $3.3 million in revenue for the most recent year where information is available. Whatever groups American Christians and churches are donating money to, it's predominantly not the Salvation Army.

... but on top of that, donations to the Salvation Army end up funding much more non-charitable stuff than would be the case if that money was donated to the average secular charity.

A lot of assumptions on this.

Regardless... Christians still give more. For all I know atheists give to charities that don't do much. (should I make that assumption too?)

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Very few religions, certainly none of the major ones, teach anything as simplistic as "sex is shameful."

Fundamentalist Evangelicals basically do. Even preaching when Paul wrote it's best to remain unmarried and not have sex.

I don't view taxation as some inherently bad thing - and again, this is something that every government on Earth does.

I agree. But giving because you have to is more like a tax than it is charity.

Many authoritarian ideologies, including secular ones, demand loyalty to the movement over blood. That is, again, nothing new.

I've never claimed religion is the only problem teacher. But it has thousands of years with very many religions that tend to add to the gross suffering of humanity that easing our plights.

 

[Left Coast]

Fundamentalist Evangelicals basically do. Even preaching when Paul wrote it's best to remain unmarried and not have sex.

Paul didn't teach that he'd prefer people to be unmarried because sex is "shameful" or inherently sinful. His position was a good deal more nuanced, even though he admitted his personal preference was toward singleness.

1 Corinthians 7 NRSV - Directions concerning Marriage - Now - Bible Gateway

I myself was a fundamentalist Evangelical at one point, and I did not see all sex as shameful, nor was I ever taught such a thing. I was definitely taught that certain kinds of sex are shameful.

I agree. But giving because you have to is more like a tax than it is charity.

That's true. I'm not sure how that's really relevant to the subject at hand, though.

I've never claimed religion is the only problem teacher. But it has thousands of years with very many religions that tend to add to the gross suffering of humanity that easing our plights.

From where I'm sitting, religion seems to be a mixed bag of good and evil (like people generally). Religion has been a vehicle for extremely good things, and vehicle for extremely bad things. It seems a double standard (and an unfalsifiable counterfactual) to claim we would've done all the good things without religion, but would never have done the bad things if it weren't for religion.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

I myself was a fundamentalist Evangelical at one point, and I did not see all sex as shameful, nor was I ever taught such a thing. I was definitely taught that certain kinds of sex are shameful.

So, for example, masturbation? I mean, it is still referred to as "the solitary sin." And yet, I would venture to say that the members of that particular club includes just about all of humanity.

So, what other kinds of sex are shameful?

 

[Left Coast]

So, for example, masturbation? I mean, it is still referred to as "the solitary sin." And yet, I would venture to say that the members of that particular club includes just about all of humanity.

So, what other kinds of sex are shameful?

In fundamentalist circles? I think you know, having been raised there as I recall. Fundamentalists of different stripes, of course, disagree about which types are taboo. And of course fundamentalism does not encompass all religion.

(Regarding masturbation, incidentally, it's interesting that the Bible never explicitly prohibits it. You'd think "Bible only" types would accordingly permit it. But alas.)

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

A lot of assumptions on this.

Regardless... Christians still give more.

Not altruistically. They mostly pay for the staff and upkeep at their social clubs, but they get tax breaks for this as if they're supporting a legitimate charity.

For all I know atheists give to charities that don't do much. (should I make that assumption too?)

It would probably be a bad assumption, but if you want to be wrong, go ahead.

Charity Navigator's rating system gives 3 stars for "average" charities. Here's an exercise for you:

- you pick any 3 star-rated charity.
- you also pick any church that you can find detailed financial statements for.
- we'll see what percentages of each one's expenditures go toward actual charitable work.

 

[Bear Wild]

If you look at all that I have said, I have agreed that there are always fringe groups that can believe anything including (as I said) that we never landed on the moon.

And as I said, it isn't that most people (Christians) don't agree that there is climate change or that they are anti take-care-of-this-world... but rather the premise on which it is being promoted. Ask ANY Christian if we should throw waste into our lakes and they will say "NO!" emphatically.

It is not just fringe groups. The is an near majority of the US population that thinks climate change is not real. Or have you not been following current events.

 

[Bear Wild]

Victim mentality as if we should keep rapists on the streets, murderers should be free et al and say that if you put them in prison it is a demonstration of hatred.

What are you talking about?????? I don't believe that and neither should you!!!!

 

[Kenny]

It is not just fringe groups. The is an near majority of the US population that thinks climate change is not real. Or have you not been following current events.

Actually, I have... and if you listen carefully you will find them saying "yes, there is climate change... it just isn't man made, it is a cycle".

 

[Kenny]

Not altruistically. They mostly pay for the staff and upkeep at their social clubs, but they get tax breaks for this as if they're supporting a legitimate charity.


It would probably be a bad assumption, but if you want to be wrong, go ahead.

Charity Navigator's rating system gives 3 stars for "average" charities. Here's an exercise for you:

- you pick any 3 star-rated charity.
- you also pick any church that you can find detailed financial statements for.
- we'll see what percentages of each one's expenditures go toward actual charitable work.

the problem with your requirements is that you don't understand church and what it does.

Example... a pastor does counseling, marriages, funerals, teaches, goes to hospitals, and a host of other functions.

You list it as salary... yet the very salary is so that he/she is able to do those legitimate love-acts (charity) for the community he/she serves.

So your categories and how you judge it is wrong in and of itself.

When you say "charitable giving" you are defining a different type of ministry and/or function... a different category.

 

[Kenny]

What are you talking about?????? I don't believe that and neither should you!!!!

It's an analogy.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

the problem with your requirements is that you don't understand church and what it does.

Example... a pastor does counseling, marriages, funerals, teaches, goes to hospitals, and a host of other functions.

And all of that is focused inwardly: services for the members of the social club. Paying for them isn't any more altruistic than all the members of a private golf club paying for the services of a golf pro.

You list it as salary... yet the very salary is so that he/she is able to do those legitimate love-acts (charity) for the community he/she serves.

"The community he serves" being the parishoners. IOW, the pastor is hired by a private group and does services for that private group.

So your categories and how you judge it is wrong in and of itself.

When you say "charitable giving" you are defining a different type of ministry and/or function... a different category.

That's right; I've been talking about altruism. A group getting together to pool its resources for mutual benefit is not necessarily altruistic.

My car club does occasional charity fundraisers and does a good job of supporting its members in their times of need; it's still a social club and not a charity. Same with the average church, and the membership fees paid to either one aren't atruism... not even if you call them "tithes."

 

[Kenny]

And all of that is focused inwardly: services for the members of the social club. Paying for them isn't any more altruistic than all the members of a private golf club paying for the services of a golf pro.

As one who lives the life... I can definitely disagree with this position.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

As one who lives the life... I can definitely disagree with this position.

What's incorrect about it? Does a pastor's job not mostly focus on their congregation?

Look at the things you listed off as the duties of a pastor:

- counseling (of members of his congregation)
- marriages (of members of his congregation)
- funerals (of members of his congregation)
- teaches (classes for members of his congregation)
- goes to hospitals (to visit sick members of his congregation)

... and I'll add two other duties that are common for pastors:

- prepare sermons to deliver to his congregation
- oversee church staff and volunteers (who are themselves mostly focused on providing services to the congregation)

Yes, a pastor will also occasionally do outward-facing things, but the same could be said for a golf pro at a private country club. Both jobs are still primarily focused on providing services for the members who pay the pastor's/pro's salary.

... so where's the altruism in a "charitable donation" to pay the salary of a pastor who mostly provides you with services?

Where's the altruism in a "charitable donation" to pay for the expenses and upkeep of the building where he provides you with all these services?

It's fine if you want to pay for these things. If pooling your money with like-minded people to pay for soneone to help facilitate your religion is something you see value in, go for it. Just don't pretend that when you do this, you're making some sort of grand, selfless gesture for the rest of humanity.

 

[Kenny]

What's incorrect about it? Does a pastor's job not mostly focus on their congregation?

Look at the things you listed off as the duties of a pastor:

- counseling (of members of his congregation)
- marriages (of members of his congregation)
- funerals (of members of his congregation)
- teaches (classes for members of his congregation)
- goes to hospitals (to visit sick members of his congregation)

... and I'll add two other duties that are common for pastors:

- prepare sermons to deliver to his congregation
- oversee church staff and volunteers (who are themselves mostly focused on providing services to the congregation)

Yes, a pastor will also occasionally do outward-facing things, but the same could be said for a golf pro at a private country club. Both jobs are still primarily focused on providing services for the members who pay the pastor's/pro's salary.

... so where's the altruism in a "charitable donation" to pay the salary of a pastor who mostly provides you with services?

Where's the altruism in a "charitable donation" to pay for the expenses and upkeep of the building where he provides you with all these services?

It's fine if you want to pay for these things. If pooling your money with like-minded people to pay for soneone to help facilitate your religion is something you see value in, go for it. Just don't pretend that when you do this, you're making some sort of grand, selfless gesture for the rest of humanity.

WOW, how you changed your tune!

From

And all of that is focused inwardly: services for the members of the social club.

to:

"Does a pastor's job not mostly focus on their congregation?"

Not to mention "Social Club" Word forms: plural social clubs social club is a club where members go in order to meet each other and enjoy leisure activities.

Leisure???? Your bias is showing.

So... I do funerals and marriages for people who don't go to my church. I counsel marriages for people who don't go to our church... We have an event that reaches 10,000 people and only 350 go to my church. We have marriage encounters where people come that don't go to our church. We have financial seminars which reaches people that don't go to our church. We give out Thanksgiving baskets to people that don't go to our church. We give gifts to Women's centers that don't go to our church. (small list) -- we even give gifts to the women that work at strip clubs and they don't go to our church

So what were you saying?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

WOW, how you changed your tune!

From


to:

"Does a pastor's job not mostly focus on their congregation?"

Read more carefully. "All" referred to the list of specific things you gave.

Not to mention "Social Club" Word forms: plural social clubs social club is a club where members go in order to meet each other and enjoy leisure activities.

Leisure???? Your bias is showing.

No bias. It's fair to say that religion is a leisure activity. A hobby.

So... I do funerals and marriages for people who don't go to my church.

... in your role as pastor of your church, or as a side job?

It's common enough for wedding venues and funeral homes to have arrangements with officiants to provide services, and some of these officiants have full-time jobs as pastors, but these roles are separate.

I counsel marriages for people who don't go to our church... We have an event that reaches 10,000 people and only 350 go to my church. We have marriage encounters where people come that don't go to our church. We have financial seminars which reaches people that don't go to our church.

And those are all provided free, thanks to the financial support of your parishoners?

We give out Thanksgiving baskets to people that don't go to our church. We give gifts to Women's centers that don't go to our church. (small list) -- we even give gifts to the women that work at strip clubs and they don't go to our church

Sounds very similar to the outreach that many of the social clubs around here do, too.

My car club does a food drive and charity fundraisers. Does that make it a charity?

So what were you saying?

Same as I've always been saying: churches aren't legitimate charities, and giving to a church isn't particularly altruistic.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Hey, @KenS - until now, I didn't realize you were a pastor. I'm guessing that means you could give us the financial statements for your church, right?

I'm not asking for anything beyond whatever gets handed out to your congregation each year. Feel free to blank out the name of your church if you aren't comfortable providing this.

It would be interesting to see what percentage of your congregation's tithes goes toward actual altruism and legitimate charity.

Are you up for it?

 

[Kenny]

Read more carefully. "All" referred to the list of specific things you gave.


No bias. It's fair to say that religion is a leisure activity. A hobby.


... in your role as pastor of your church, or as a side job?

It's common enough for wedding venues and funeral homes to have arrangements with officiants to provide services, and some of these officiants have full-time jobs as pastors, but these roles are separate.


And those are all provided free, thanks to the financial support of your parishoners?


Sounds very similar to the outreach that many of the social clubs around here do, too.

My car club does a food drive and charity fundraisers. Does that make it a charity?


Same as I've always been saying: churches aren't legitimate charities, and giving to a church isn't particularly altruistic.

LOL

Your response says it all...

I think where you work (or worked) is a social gathering tool

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

LOL

Your response says it all...

I think where you work (or worked) is a social gathering tool

I'm not sure what your point is.