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Irony of the evolutionary belief

leroy

Well-Known Member
"And frankly, if I'm a Boltzmann brain, that's fine, too. My current arrangement is quite satisfactory whatever hidden aspects to reality there may be, which is also my answer regarding free will being illusion. If that's the case, that's also fine. Whether I'm a deterministic "robot" or a Boltzmann brain living some last Thursdayism existence or a brain in a vat or the victim of Descartes' demon, it's all good"
Well, I explained that any chance hypothesis (including multiverse hypothesis) fails because any chance hypothesis would lead to the conclusion that “likely you are a Boltzmann Brain”

And Unless I missed something (in which case I would apologize) you didn’t seem to object to that claim, all I got was that quote (above)

To me that sounds that you are admitting that likely you are a Boltzmann Brain.


If you disagree on that you are a BB , and you insist in chance hypothesis (like the multiverse), then your only option is to provide an alternative “chance hypothesis” that would avoid the BB Paradox
 

leroy

Well-Known Member
I'll accept that the option is similar to saying that the universe appears finely tuned and proposing an unknow naturalistic mechanism for it, but not that it's less parsimonious than the only supernatural entry on the list, which remains at the bottom for that reason.
Reallly?

Do you think that:

1 an unknown natural mechanism wrote a note with meaningful words and sentences

Is better than

2 some god wrote a note with meaningful words and sentences………………


That followed these two comments:

You: I agree on that if 2 hypotheses are equal in terms of explanatory power, explanatory scope, intrinsic probability etc. one most go for the most simple hypothesis (the one that makes less assumptions

Me: Does "go for" mean accept provisionally as the best of competing hypotheses or does it mean accept as correct? If the first, yes, we should go for the most parsimonious hypothesis. If the latter, then no, we shouldn't go for it.

You're basically restating Occam's parsimony principle here and agreeing. Is that what you meant?
I don’t agree with your understanding of O.R. but for the sake of the discussion I don’t mind agreeing with you on this concept..........Is there a mayor point? I agree on that we must accept the most parsimonious hypothesis as the best hypothesis, but this doesn’t mean that it is correct…………… did I answer your question?

 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Well, I explained that any chance hypothesis (including multiverse hypothesis) fails because any chance hypothesis would lead to the conclusion that “likely you are a Boltzmann Brain”
But I don't accept that conclusion. I think the likeliest explanation for the appearance of fine tuning is a multiverse hypothesis, but there are other naturalistic possibilities such as universes breaking symmetry in a way that favors or compels such physical constants the way that boulders roll downhill, seeking some kind of lowest energy state.
you didn’t seem to object to that claim
I didn't realize that you expected me say more than that the idea seems logically possible, and if it is the case, it's not a problem.
all I got was that quote (above) To me that sounds that you are admitting that likely you are a Boltzmann Brain.
But I told you that that is NOT my opinion, meaning either I miswrote or you misread.
If you disagree on that you are a BB , and you insist in chance hypothesis (like the multiverse), then your only option is to provide an alternative “chance hypothesis” that would avoid the BB Paradox
No, I don't say that I'm not a Boltzmann brain, I don't insist on any hypothesis, and I've already given you alternate hypotheses including yet another a few sentences above this one.

Once again, I really don't know what we're discussing or why.
Do you think that:

1 an unknown natural mechanism wrote a note with meaningful words and sentences

Is better than

2 some god wrote a note with meaningful words and sentences
Yes. Maybe you mean something different than I do by "unknown natural mechanism."

And what note? Did you want to add that a note was found in the home where the dog went missing? OK. The unknown natural mechanism could be that a neighbor wrote it and left it there, which seems more likely that an Odin hypothesis.
I agree on that we must accept the most parsimonious hypothesis as the best hypothesis, but this doesn’t mean that it is correct
Did I just see a light bulb incandesce over your head? I think you had your Eliza Doolittle or Helen Keller epiphany. Yes, that is exactly correct. The parsimony principle like all razors gives a method for ordering hypothesis, not ruling any in or out. The following is from an old RF post, which might be illuminating to you about what razors are and do:
And yes, razors don't tell us what the truth is, just how to order our possibilities in terms of likelihood. All plausible naturalistic explanations like abiogenesis, for example, are preferred over all supernaturalistic explanations simply because they do it without gods, a huge presumption (unnecessary complexity) with no additional explanatory power.​
There are a few of these pieces of advice that help us order our lists of candidate hypothesis in terms of likelihood. Hitchen's Razor is well known - "What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence." Clearly, that doesn't mean that the claim is untrue, just not worth believing, and unless the truth is important, not even worth fact checking, since most such claims don't bear scrutiny. And Sagan has a similar razor - "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence."​
We have an implied razor from Popper with his principle of scientific statements needing to be falsifiable. Implied is that investigating them for truth content is time wasted.​
There are a few quaint ones. Hanlon’s razor says to, "never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by incompetence or stupidity." I don't actually agree with that one, but it's a razor nevertheless, since it wants to order logical possibilities and put answers requiring only stupidity over those requiring malice. I think that malice and conspiracy are both much more common than is suspected, which is why so many people get conned and gaslighted, but that's not relevant to what a razor is.​
Also, "if it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, ..." it's a duck until one has reason to think otherwise. Put duck at the top of your list when one sees that, not robot or hallucination or bunny dressed up like a duck. The others are possible, but less likely, and should not be seriously considered before having a reason to believe it's not a duck.​
We had one when I was in medical school - "If you hear hooves clopping, think horse, not zebra." This was advice to pursue common diagnoses first all things being equal.​
The common thread to all of these is not to say what is true or not, but what is tentatively the preferred explanation until it is no longer adequate to account for all relevant observation.​
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
No they were not tuned, in the literal sense of the Word.
No matter how often you repeat your error you will still be wrong.
For the third time.

1 if the numbers are logically or metaphysically necessary, then granted, the values would “just be” and no explanation would be needed.

Then the expansion rate at least, and probably others are not "fine tuned"
2 if the numbers where physically necessary given “deeper laws of physics” then the design hypothesis would not be affected,

And what is this word salad supposed to mean?

Nope, please quote an actual paper…………….I know about that quote from Carlo in the debate, and he has been critized by cosmologist, because nobody understood what was he talking about.

So please quote an actual paper that explains and supports whatever mess was claimed by Carol.


Well if your objections are based straw man and based on a unsupported quote made by Carol……..I think I can claim victory
No, I need not bother. You cannot support your claims even though everyone has pointed out that you are making the same error. When you get like this you have a tendency to completely misinterpret articles. Your mistakes have been made clear to you. If you do not understand it is not the problem of those that have tried to enlighten you.
 

leroy

Well-Known Member
No matter how often you repeat your error you will still be wrong.
You are a YEC claiming that evolution is wrong because nobody has ever seen a monkey giving birth to a human.




Then the expansion rate at least, and probably others are not "fine tuned"
Yes it would still be FT………… (but not designed)

Luckily for me you will not support your assertion

No, I need not bother. You cannot support your claims even though everyone has pointed out that you are making the same error. When you get like this you have a tendency to completely misinterpret articles. Your mistakes have been made clear to you. If you do not understand it is not the problem of those that have tried to enlighten you.
You are misrepresenting the argument you have been corrected multiple times and you keep repeating the same mistake.

The FT argument is not based on the assumption that the values could be different, you are making a strawman
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
You are a YEC claiming that evolution is wrong because nobody has ever seen a monkey giving birth to a human.
Projection. Your errors have been explained to you. Move on.
Yes it would still be FT………… (but not designed)

Then there is no point calling it FT since that has a different meaning.
Luckily for me you will not support your assertion

I already have. I do not need to go to the lengths that you demand. You already got one huge video completely backwards.
You are misrepresenting the argument you have been corrected multiple times and you keep repeating the same mistake.

Nope, try again. Everyone knows that it is the other way around.
The FT argument is not based on the assumption that the values could be different, you are making a strawman
Wrong again. You simply do not understand the argument. I cannot help you if you refuse to learn. I need to remind you that you cannot define 2 + 2 to equal 5.
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
ok

1: The Fine Tuning is due to either physical necessity, chance, or design.
These are the only 3 alternatives that are logically possible that I am aware off, feel free to share a 4th alternative if you think there is one

How did you determine that "design" is a viable and logical possibility?


2: It is not due to physical necessity, or chance.
Physical neceseity wouldnt solve the problem it would only push it one step back

The BB paradox refutes any chance hypothesis

You are just repeating your claims. You are not supporting it at all.

3: Therefore, it is due to design.
this logically follows.

Sounds more like an assumed conclusion then anything else.

If you don’t start your reply with

“I affirm that you are worng in “”xxx claim” because xxxxx you will be ignored.

If you don't start your reply with "I affirm that I was just repeating my claims and not supporting them for which I appologize" then your reply will be ignored.

Such arrogance...........
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
If you don't start your reply with "I affirm that I was just repeating my claims and not supporting them for which I appologize" then your reply will be ignored.

Such arrogance...........
It is also a promise that he cannot keep. If people ignore his arrogant demands he never puts people on ignore. It was just an empty threat.
 

leroy

Well-Known Member
Projection. Your errors have been explained to you. Move on.




Wrong again. You simply do not understand the argument. I cannot help you if you refuse to learn. I need to remind you that you cannot define 2 + 2 to equal 5.
Why is it so hard to understand………………I am not defending the argument that you have in your mind, I am not defending an argument that assumes that the values “could not be different”.it is no my foult that all you have to refute the argument is a strawman

Then there is no point calling it FT since that has a different meaning.
Then don’t call it FT call it however you want

Wrong again. You simply do not understand the argument. I cannot help you if you refuse to learn. I need to remind you that you cannot define 2 + 2 to equal 5.

Granted, I don’t understand your own personal understanding of the argument.

The argument that I am promoting (and that I understand) is an argument that is open to the possibility that the values where determined by deeper laws……………..if you don’t what to call this FT I don’t care, give it a different name.
 

leroy

Well-Known Member
How did you determine that "design" is a viable and logical possibility?
If you don’t followed the rules, you will be ignored.

For example if you don’t start with “I affirm that design is logically impossible because…” you will be ignored.


Understand, I have no interest in a conversation with someone who lacks a clear and testable view ……….if you are in “questioning everything mode” I am not interested …………I am not saying that it is wrong to question everything, I am simply saying that I am not interested in such conversation.
 

gnostic

The Lost One
The argument that I am promoting (and that I understand) is an argument that is open to the possibility that the values where determined by deeper laws……………..if you don’t what to call this FT I don’t care, give it a different name.

Deeper law?

The fine-tuned concept is not even a working hypothesis, and it is definitely not science, so how could possibly be law, Leroy?

You are simply making up claim of being law, when it hasn’t been tested in accordance with the Scientific Method.

And beside you talk of FT having values, and make presumptions of the intelligent design, and yet not once have you what those values are, let alone demonstrated that that the designer was responsible for the values being finely tuned.

So you present no values, so any talk of values without a single number, then they are just empty claims. And all this talk of designer, but having no demonstration that such designer existed, make your conclusion just another empty claim.

claims are not evidence, they are just baseless opinions of yours.
 

gnostic

The Lost One
In this context God is simply an “intelligent designer that exists independently of this FT universe.”

more empty & baseless claims.

You do that a lot, Leroy.

your personal beliefs are merely your opinions, and they are worthless if you cannot the validity of your beliefs/claims.

it is really tiresome that you just keep repeating & recycling your claims. No amount of repeating yourself would validate the FT or Intelligent Design. It just makes you sound increasingly foolish & ignorant.
 

F1fan

Veteran Member
The argument that I am promoting (and that I understand) is an argument that is open to the possibility
It’s a purely hypothetical possibility that has zero facts or probability. Why bother with it?

Could it reflect the insecurity of some believers whose dogma lacks credibility?

that the values where determined by deeper laws……………
There are no “deeper laws”. There are only the laws we have.

..if you don’t what to call this FT I don’t care, give it a different name.
Complete crap.
 

leroy

Well-Known Member
Deeper law?

The fine-tuned concept is not even a working hypothesis, and it is definitely not science, so how could possibly be law, Leroy?

You are simply making up claim of being law, when it hasn’t been tested in accordance with the Scientific Method.
Reeeeed , nobody is making a claim that FT is a law

And beside you talk of FT having values, and make presumptions of the intelligent design, and yet not once have you what those values are, let alone demonstrated that that the designer was responsible for the values being finely tuned.

Yes I affirm that intelligent design is the best explanation for the FT of the universe-…………… if you have a better alternative in mind, please develop it, and explain why is it better than design.



then they are just empty claims. And all this talk of designer, but having no demonstration that such designer existed, make your conclusion just another empty claim.
That is circular reasoning
 

Pogo

Well-Known Member
Reeeeed , nobody is making a claim that FT is a law



Yes I affirm that intelligent design is the best explanation for the FT of the universe-…………… if you have a better alternative in mind, please develop it, and explain why is it better than design.





That is circular reasoning
Necessity, Chance, Design is not a scientific or logically complete set, moreover it is only used by religious people attempting to rhetorically justify their beliefs.
You dismiss the first two cases without evidence and yet claim that variation is not even necessary for fine tuna.

On the other hand, using your criteria, Necessity seems obvious since the debate can only occur in a universe where intelligence is possible.

As for design it can only be inferred through knowledge of the designers capabilities. Proposing apparent FT or design is a result of a supernatural source that just happens to have the desired capabilities is as silly and emotional as non-technological people assuming soul stealing gods when explorers show them a photograph.

You do not have a logical or scientific justification for any of your claims grounded in anything beyond your equivocation of meanings.
in other realms it is called proof texting.

Far better minds than yours have attempted and failed this ancient attempt to justify faith.
 
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