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initiation
- Thread starter jasonwill2
- Start date
jasonwill2
Well-Known Member
The second Kori Houghton stepped into here, I finally felt like I was starting to get some truly objective observations on this whole matter.
Actually, I'm inching towards atheism heavily recently... and I guess a lot of what he said has indicated to me some other things that I need to consider about magic in general.
Actually, I'm inching towards atheism heavily recently... and I guess a lot of what he said has indicated to me some other things that I need to consider about magic in general.
JasonW2 of course you are free to make your own decisions, however, when it comes to Magic there is no such thing as an "objective observation". Hell, me and my girlfriend can't even agree completely on the definition of Magic. But we do not consider that a bad thing because on the Left-Hand Path we both recognize and accept that nothing is necesserely concrete or written in stone.
Xeper.
/Adramelek\
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jasonwill2
Well-Known Member
I was more referring to initiation, but he did raise some good points about magic. Confirmation bias and our wide definition of "success" makes it hard to tell when it was really magic or just a mere coincidence and/or our ability making it going to work regardless. I have so far found that magic, at least for me, works the best when used to reconstruct my ego so that I can erase anxieties and emotional anguish by accessing those deep parts of my mind that I have locked away.
I just found his perspective refreshing, he was skeptical on the whole thing, and I thought that was like a cold splash of water to the face after being in a hot-tub... or a warm splash of water after being in a cold swimming pool... anyway not the best allegory, but I found it really nice to get a totally different view on magic.
Magic IS subjective, but it is also deeply routed in psychology, which is an (at least I assume) objective science. If our theories of magic defy natural laws, they can't be true. As many have said (Anton LaVey included), magic works with nature and not against it.
Orias
Left Hand Path
I tend to think of it as...its magic...but who's is it?
Depending on this, you let it flow or disrupt. After all, a book does not need to be read to have words in it.
You never know how a thought that you held in the past regarding a thought you held even deeper in the past, could change, and even how they could change how you perceive and take in things.
Agreeable, though there is still 99% of it missing.
It is refreshing, an outside view. I try and stay 50/50 outside and in, though it is impossible to even get 50/50.
Though whether or not it is progress to you, it does not matter, because in the progress of life we do not see most of it.
Just what we see, with our own eyes. Its easier to describe something would essentially entail oneself and apply it to another, "he doesn't know anything", "he's arrogant", "that pale turd" etc. etc.
Agreeable, but then again nature does work to destroy itself.
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blackout
Violet.
Just for the record, I have not worked for over 20 years. I do watch some teevee, but never played a video game. (Am I missing something worth doing here?) I am not on the dole, but I live an extremely frugal life, which is worth the effort in exchange for not being part of the machine. Personally, I feel I've made much more progress as an evolved Being without being a rat in the race. I like myself a lot more, and I feel much more compassion and empathy for others than I did when I was a Yuppie getting told by my corporate division VP that I 'walked on water'. Your mileage may vary.
Hi Kori.
Was it your choice to make this life change?
Was it your doing? Your desire?
Were you complicit, active, in making this change?
If so, do you see it as a significant change, a major change, a minor change, or a minute change.
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In some ways this statement is true, but in many other ways Magic does work against nature or natural law, at least in my opinion.
Xeper.
/Adramelek\
Octavia156
OTO/EGC
i'm not going to repeat the "new beginning" concept of initaition has been said many times in this thread - i agree entirely. I aslo see the formal initiations i've taken as 'punctuation marks' in my Work.
There's nothing quite like throwing yourself into an unknown situation and inducing a highly charged state of mind as a method of causing change in your life. that super-sensitive mind set is great for absorbing key information on a sub-conscious level
if you've never been through a magickal initiation where you have no idea what will happen to you i highly recommend it. having been through a variety of magickal and freemasonic initiations, there's not much in the everyday life that i'm afraid to do (except swim with sharks
)... as all I have to do is remember the courage i summoned then and the mundane suddenly seems rather easy
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how so?
From my perspective, magically man stands apart from nature. The "Gift of Set" that is the human psyche is something seperate and distinct from the natural order, however, as its properties and essence has been infused within our DNA it has become a part of our unique nature. It is that which enables us to understand the objective universe and our own subjective interpretations of it and the ability to distinguish between the two.
Magic is a manifestation of the psyche, of the mind, it is the causing of change to occure within the subjective universe in accordance with the will, this change can have a similar or proportionate effect within the objective universe. The essence of Magic is its effect upon the subjective universe(s) of the magician and/or others, which are not controlled by the laws of the objective universe. And such subjective universes are inescapable the "lenses" or "windows" through which the objective universe is perceived, assigned significance, and interpreted.
Xeper.
/Adramelek\
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Octavia156
OTO/EGC
i get it. but i don't get it.
but if man stands apart from nature - the objective universe, but he can only can only cause change in the subjective universe, then it must be impossible for him to cause any change in the objective whatsoever?
Surely for magick to work one must make a union between subjective and objective in order to make a change in both.
if the Gift of Set is Separation, you wouldn't working against the natural order, you'd be completely independent of it, thus nothing you did would have any effect on the objective world at all.
so you think Subjectivity is something completely separate that crept into Objectivity?
Is there no formula of the hexagram in Setianism?
yours ignorantly,
O
but if man stands apart from nature - the objective universe, but he can only can only cause change in the subjective universe, then it must be impossible for him to cause any change in the objective whatsoever?
Surely for magick to work one must make a union between subjective and objective in order to make a change in both.
if the Gift of Set is Separation, you wouldn't working against the natural order, you'd be completely independent of it, thus nothing you did would have any effect on the objective world at all.
so you think Subjectivity is something completely separate that crept into Objectivity?
Is there no formula of the hexagram in Setianism?
yours ignorantly,
O
No my dear, what I am saying is that Magic takes effect by expanding and/or altering your subjective universe, which then exerts a corresponding and proportionate influence upon the objective universe - and other subjective universes. The psyche transcends nature, thus gives us power over nature, imo. The "union" you speak of in magic is what I call the "magical link" - Magic is in essence the unification of the subjective universe with the objective universe. Hence the o.u. takes on the characteristics of the s.u.. Sorry, I should have been more clear.
Xeper.
/Adramelek\
Xeper.
/Adramelek\
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No, at least to me, magic effects both the subjective and objective universes respectively as I have tried to outline above.
Xeper.
/Adramelek\
you mean this? yeah i missed that.
hmmm i agree with most of what you say but im not sure about effecting the objective.