Infant Baptism

[Evandr2]

I have a question about baptism.

Consider the following situation. Two people, all things being equal, die after a long life and stand before the judgment seat of God.
One was baptized as an infant and one was never baptized at all.

Which one would fare better?
Would it matter?

I have an opinion but I will reserve it until I get some responses.

Vandr

 

[linwood]

Acts 2:38
Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.


Mark16:16
Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.


John 3:5

Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit.


These and other Biblical verses state that Baptism is a necesity to enter the Kingdom of God.
Can anyone show me any scripture that would make these nul and void?

 

[SoyLeche]

Acts 2:38
Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.


Mark16:16
Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.


John 3:5

Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit.


These and other Biblical verses state that Baptism is a necesity to enter the Kingdom of God.
Can anyone show me any scripture that would make these nul and void?

From the Bible, no. There are some good ones in the Book of Mormon that would work for little children. FFH has already posted them, though, and I'm sure they mean nothing to you.

 

[Mister Emu]

These and other Biblical verses state that Baptism is a necesity to enter the Kingdom of God.
Can anyone show me any scripture that would make these nul and void?

Theif on the cross next to Jesus went to paradise, without water baptism...

Would it matter?

All things being equal:
Both reject Jesus and are not Christians - No
Both accept Jesus, and the non-baptized one has the intention of being baptised, or due to ignorance does not know they need to be baptized - No
Both accept Jesus, non-baptised one knows that Jesus commanded baptism for the remission of sins, and willfully ignores the Lord's commands - Yes. I think the one might have some explainin' to do...

 

[SoyLeche]

Theif on the cross next to Jesus went to paradise, without water baptism...

First: Do you have any proof that the theif hadn't been previously baptized with water? It's a pretty safe bet, but we really don't know for sure.

Second: At least from an LDS perspective, "Paridise" doesn't refer to the ultimate state that a person will find themselves in. Rather, it is a state in between death and resurection/judgment. Take that for whatever it's worth.

 

[sojourner]

yes , i agree ,how on earth could a religious leader teach something like that , when the bible does not teach infant baptism anyway. how heartless can a person get.

I can't pull the quote out right at this moment, but the Bible does tell of a man who was baptized "and all his household with him." That implies that children and infants were baptized, too, since small children would almost certainly be present in a household at that time.

Consider the following situation. Two people, all things being equal, die after a long life and stand before the judgment seat of God.
One was baptized as an infant and one was never baptized at all.

Which one would fare better?
Would it matter?

No. Both would be equally received as children of God.

These and other Biblical verses state that Baptism is a necesity to enter the Kingdom of God.
Can anyone show me any scripture that would make these nul and void?

none that would render them null, but some that present a different viewpoint of grace: Job 42:2, Psalm 139:7-8, Psalm 145:8-10, Isaiah 25:6-8, Isaiah 45:22-24, Jer 31:33-34, Hosea 11:9, Joel 2:28, Zeph 3:9, Matt. 18:14, Lk 3:6, Lk 15:4,8, Jn 12:32,47, Jn 15:16, Acts 3:21, Rom 3:23-24, Rom 5:18, Rom 8:38-39,Rom 11:32, I cor. 15:22, Eph. 1:9-10, Col. 1:19-20, I Tim 2:3-4, Titus 2:11, Rev. 5:13.

 

[linwood]

From the Bible, no. There are some good ones in the Book of Mormon that would work for little children. FFH has already posted them, though, and I'm sure they mean nothing to you.

Thats ok, the scripture from the Bible means nothing to me either.
I`m just here for the refreshments.

Theif on the cross next to Jesus went to paradise, without water baptism...

But he had a special invitation directly from the host himself.
Thanks for pointing out the contradiction in Jesus` words though, I hadn`t noticed it before.

First: Do you have any proof that the theif hadn't been previously baptized with water? It's a pretty safe bet, but we really don't know for sure.

Good point but that contradicts the contradiction.
This Bible stuff is very contradictory!

 

[linwood]

none that would render them null, but some that present a different viewpoint of grace:

Thank you Sojournor.
I`ll have a look at them now.

 

[sojourner]

The story goes that a Catholic priest and and Baptist minister were talking "shop" over coffee one day.

The Baptist asked, "Do you believe in infant baptism?"

To which the priest replied, "Believe it? Heck, I've seen it!"

 

[SoyLeche]

Good point but that contradicts the contradiction.
This Bible stuff is very contradictory!

Ned Flanders: I've done everything the Bible says! Even the stuff that contradicts the other stuff. Heck, I've even stayed kosher just to be on the safe side!

 

[standing_alone]

I'm absolutely certain that neither the Lutherans nor the Anglicans hold to the idea that unbaptised children are damned to hell either as I have a background with both churches.

I don't know about other Lutheran churches, but the one that I went to believed that babies that weren't baptized were damned to hell for eternity. In fact, like the OP, one of the pastors said told a couple that their baby that died from SIDS before being baptized went to hell. But this is off-topic.

 

[linwood]

Hmm..Most of those verses state how to achieve Christs grace and entrance into heaven without mentioning baptism but they don`t specifically speak of baptism, just acceptance of Jesus as the Christ.

Jesus himself has said...

"I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit."

So..I`m going to say that as far as Biblical accuracy goes the spiritual leader in the story is indeed correct.
That infant is consigned to an eternity in hell.

Can anyone give me scripture relevant to this topic that even implies Jesus wasn`t serious when he made the above statement?

It just tickles me when Christians won`t even listen to Christs own words because his morality isn`t what they`d like it to be.

 

[Aqualung]

Jesus himself has said...

"I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit."

So..I`m going to say that as far as Biblical accuracy goes the spiritual leader in the story is indeed correct.
That infant is consigned to an eternity in hell.

Well, unless you're LDS and believe you can be baptised vicariously.

Can anyone give me scripture relevant to this topic that even implies Jesus wasn`t serious when he made the above statement?

Nope.

It just tickles me when Christians won`t even listen to Christs own words because his morality isn`t what they`d like it to be.

Yeah. At least LDS have an explanation.

 

[sojourner]

Hmm..Most of those verses state how to achieve Christs grace and entrance into heaven without mentioning baptism but they don`t specifically speak of baptism, just acceptance of Jesus as the Christ.

Jesus himself has said...

"I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit."

So..I`m going to say that as far as Biblical accuracy goes the spiritual leader in the story is indeed correct.
That infant is consigned to an eternity in hell.

Can anyone give me scripture relevant to this topic that even implies Jesus wasn`t serious when he made the above statement?

It just tickles me when Christians won`t even listen to Christs own words because his morality isn`t what they`d like it to be.

The difference between your understanding and mine is that we don't achieve grace -- grace is achieved for us -- as a gift.

It's not that we don't listen to Christ's words, it's that we scrutinize what somebody said Christ said. We also listen for meaning, not merely content. There are a few different ways that the passage in question could be interpreted. What does it really mean? Perhaps the meaning is quite deeper than a shallow reading can elicit.

 

[Mister Emu]

Linwood,

Just to clarify. The Catholic Church does see baptism as a nessecary(sp) part of salvation, however it sees it as, what I believe is called, an ordinary nessecity, in other words, if you have the ability to you need to... however if you are one your way to baptism and you get hit by a car or something, since you had the full intention to be baptised and would have were it not for an unlikely occurance you are not damned...

 

[FFH]

The thief on the cross died without the law, therefore he was exempt from baptism, however when the law is taught to him in spirit paradise, he must accept baptism, and many other saving ordinances, in order to obtain the highest degree of glory in the Celestial kingdom, in which God the Father and God the Son dwell.

Moroni 8: 22

22- For behold that all little children are alive in Christ, and also all they that are without the law. For the power of redemption cometh on all them that have no law; wherefore, he that is not condemned, or he that is under no condemnation, cannot repent; and unto such baptism availeth nothing—

 

[Aqualung]

If he recognised Christ for who he was, he was not without the law.

 

[MaddLlama]

I thought unbaptised babies go to limbo? That's what they taught me in Catholic school anyway.

 

[FFH]

As is the case with the thief on the cross, who died without the law, and was exempt from the effects of the law, so are little children exempt from the effects of the law, because they are incapable of understanding/comprehending the law, and therefore are ignorant of the law, as was the thief on the cross ignorant of the law, because it was never properly explained/taught to him.

When the law is explained to a little child, and it's affects, and the atonement explained, they don't fully understand/comprehend it, because their cognitive reasoning has not fully developed.

Those who die without the law are as little children, because they are innocent and ignorant of the law, and therefore exempt from the ordinance of baptism for the remission of sins.

Baptism is performed for the remission of sins, which neither children, under the age of eight have, nor do those who die without the law properly explained to them.

It's impossible to sin without knowledge or comprehension of the law.

Mark 1: 4

John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.

Luke 3: 3

And he came into all the country about Jordan, preaching the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins;

 

[FFH]

Doctrine and Covenanats 137: 10

And I also beheld that all children who die before they arrive at the years of accountability are saved in the celestial kingdom of heaven.