Independance, an ongoing struggle in North America

[Evangelicalhumanist]

You're suggesting the buzz word is bogus and always will be, then? I'll disagree as a citizen and suggest that our government is (us) the people and not the other way around.

Pretty much only when you're casting a ballot -- and if you don't do that carefully, perhaps never again afterwards.

 

[Balthazzar]

Pretty much only when you're casting a ballot -- and if you don't do that carefully, perhaps never again afterwards.

That's not entirely true, given our daily activities and efforts made in our politics, both locally and national. The ballot box is no more than a verification of what came before. I will agree with your assessment of our need of competence as citizens. Although, competence isn't so evident with the ongoing circus show. "Where the sleeping dog lay sleeping, the wolves approach."

 

[PureX]

The problem arises with the prospect of a larger conflict between our coalitions and our enemies. Our democratic process' are largely influenced by this paradigm, which makes us as citizens vulnerably forced into the compliances of the larger "us". This isn't to suggest that we no longer have a say in our policies, but that there now exists a dynamic that we are not yet accustomed to. Losing our allies is or would be a concern, but then so are larger conflicts with our names attached, per our alliances.

"Everybody's got to fight to be free" as Tom Petty sang. Because there are always those among us looking to conquer and enslave us. And if we allow them to rape, rob, and pillage our neighbor's village this week, they will be coming to rape, rob, and pillage our village the next. So when we risk our lives or livelihood to try and protect a nation like Ukraine, or Poland, or Scandinavia or Germany from Putin's wolves today, we are also protecting ourselves from those wolves tomorrow. Because the wolves aren't going to stop until someone stops them. And that someone will sooner or later have to be us. Because we'll be their next victims, sure as hell, if we don't.

 

[Balthazzar]

"Everybody's got to fight to be free" as Tom Petty sang. Because there are always those among us looking to conquer and enslave us. And if we allow them to rape, rob, and pillage our neighbor's village this week, they will be coming to rape, rob, and pillage our village the next. So when we risk our lives or livelihood to try and protect a nation like Ukraine, or Poland, or Scandinavia or Germany from Putin's wolves today, we are also protecting ourselves from those wolves tomorrow. Because the wolves aren't going to stop until someone stops them. And that someone will sooner or later have to be us. Because we'll be their next victims, sure as hell, if we don't.

...and if we do, what of homeland defense capabilities and those left vulnerable here in the states? We see this in the Ukraine. Woman and children left while the men fight the battles, each hoping for the survival and safety of the other. Neither left in a position of security, but one of great difficulty and uncertainty.

 

[PureX]

...and if we do, what of homeland defense capabilities and those left vulnerable here in the states? We see this in the Ukraine. Woman and children left while the men fight the battles, each hoping for the survival and safety of the other. Neither left in a position of security, but one of great difficulty and uncertainty.

Fighting for one's freedom involves taking losses. Maybe even a total loss. This is why the wolves have to be stopped as soom as we recognize them, and not allowed to run rampant until their at our own doorstep. The longer we let them run, the harder they will be to stop. Putin has already conquered and enslaved his own people. Now he wants to reassemble the old Soviet Union. And guess what he's going to want once he manages that? He has no internal limiter. He will just keep going until he is stopped. It's the same with all these megalomaniacal despots. And that includes Trump here at home.

 

[Balthazzar]

Fighting for one's freedom involves taking losses. Maybe even a total loss. This is why the wolves have to be stopped as soom as we recognize them, and not allowed to run rampant until their at our own doorstep. The longer we let them run, the harder they will be to stop. Putin has already conquered and enslaved his own people. Now he wants to reassemble the old Soviet Union. And guess what he's going to want once he manages that? He has no internal limiter. He will just keep going until he is stopped. It's the same with all these megalomaniacal despots. And that includes Trump here at home.

At the moment, and if we get involved, other Nato allies will be involved also. This is a non disputed reality. If this happens, WW III will officially ensue. Time is what time is. Whether our losses to defeat the effort present day or those in process already, you're correct in saying that there will be losses. The issue is in the timing and when this might actually transpire, if at all. With that stated, we have obligations here at home.

 

[PureX]

At the moment, and if we get involved, other Nato allies will be involved also. This is a non disputed reality. If this happens, WW III will officially ensue. Time is what time is. Whether our losses to defeat the effort present day or those in process already, you're correct in saying that there will be losses. The issue is in the timing and when this might actually transpire, if at all. With that stated, we have obligations here at home.

The problems here at home aren't Putin's doing. They are our own doing. We've allowed a capitalist oligarchy to take over our government and all they care about are their own profits. They have us making many bad decisions based on their greed. Right now they are a far greater threat to us than Putin is. And Putin was counting on this distraction to keep the NATO allies ineffectual long enough for him to take Ukraine. But Ukraine fought back and his own army was not up to par, so he miscalculated. Every day he fights his army gets weaker and his own people suffer. Let's hope they finally rid themselves of him and save the rest of us the arduous task of doing it. And they do it before he starts WW3.

 

[Balthazzar]

The problems here at home aren't Putin's doing. They are our own doing. We've allowed a capitalist oligarchy to take over our government and all they care about are their own profits. They have us making many bad decisions based on their greed. Right now they are a far greater threat to us than Putin is. And Putin was counting on this distraction to keep the NATO allies ineffectual long enough for him to take Ukraine. But Ukraine fought back and his own army was not up to par, so he miscalculated. Every day he fights his army gets weaker and his own people suffer. Let's hope they finally rid themselves of him and save the rest of us the arduous task of doing it. And they do it before he starts WW3.

Without capitalism thriving what's left for American citizens? What of our economy? Where is the capital coming from if not from taxes to help fund social programs and community needs, etc? Capitalism and capitalists are not the problem.

 

[PureX]

Without capitalism thriving what's left for American citizens? What of our economy? Where is the capital coming from if not from taxes to help fund social programs and community needs, etc? Capitalism and capitalists are not the problem.

Capitalism is exactly our problem. But first you have to be able to recognize what capitalism is, and what it's not. And that's a discussion for a whole other thread.

 

[LuisDantas]

You know, I never quite understood what people meant by "political independence".

Interdependency is part of human nature. Political relevance can only be achieve or make any sense by going through the trouble of listening to others.

There is far more than a hint of self-contradiction in any talk about political independence or that holy fruit of fiction, "sovereignity".

Those are not concepts worth caring about.

 

[Balthazzar]

Capitalism is exactly our problem. But first you have to be able to recognize what capitalism is, and what it's not. And that's a discussion for a whole other thread.

Less employee corporate decision making as opposed to more - I prefer less and the capitalist type model of operations.

 

[PureX]

Less employee corporate decision making as opposed to more - I prefer less and the capitalist type model of operations.

Why, are you getting all the profits that way?

 

[Twilight Hue]

Without capitalism thriving what's left for American citizens? What of our economy? Where is the capital coming from if not from taxes to help fund social programs and community needs, etc? Capitalism and capitalists are not the problem.

It's the damm Democrat socialists that are the cancer of this nation. They want to destroy private capitalism and have the state take everything over. Already we see the auto industry being attacked and forced to produce what the government tells them to produce.

 

[Balthazzar]

Why, are you getting all the profits that way?

It's about the decisions made for the business, which are typically erected by their owners who should retain the right to make them for the employees hired by them who work there. Greater profits are typically reserved for the owners who create the business, so yes in some respects it is about the profits.

 

[Balthazzar]

It's the damm Democrat socialists that are the cancer of this nation. They want to destroy private capitalism and have the state take everything over. Already we see the auto industry being attacked and forced to produce what the government tells them to produce.

I wouldn't go that far. It's just this nation is in so much debt that capitalism would benefit us more so than a more socialist operated government.

 

[PureX]

It's about the decisions made for the business, which are typically erected by their owners who should retain the right to make them for the employees hired by them who work there. Greater profits are typically reserved for the owners who create the business, so yes in some respects it is about the profits.

Please explain rationally why the person that invests money in a business enterprise should retain complete control over that enterprise even though it will intentionally effect the lives and well being of everyone that engages in it. We don't allow our own governments to have that kind of power over us, and for very good reason. So why should we allow some individual who's only qualification is that they managed to pile up more money than they need to live on and now want to use it to garner even more.

Please explain why this person should receive all the profits generated by the collective efforts and participation of all those other people.

 

[Balthazzar]

Please explain rationally why the person that invests money in a business enterprise should retain complete control over that enterprise even though it will intentionally effect the lives and well being of everyone that engages in it. We don't allow our own governments to have that kind of power over us, and for very good reason. So why should we allow some individual who's only qualification is that they managed to pile up more money than they need to live on and now want to use it to garner even more.

Please explain why this person should receive all the profits generated by the collective efforts and participation of all those other people.

I would disagree with receiving all the profits, but they should, being the persons who put in the work and time to create the business, receive higher wages than those working for them. Beyond this, most business owners enjoy the gains, so their brain child's and creations should be in their hands to make the decisions for profit purposes. Taxes are another aspect of this paradigm, which go up top to help aid other government programs. Being in debt, 34 trillion alone is enough reason to choose a more capitalistic approach than a socialist one. If a person disagrees with pay or work conditions, they may should have applied or accepted work elsewhere. Fair wage act covers and remedies a great deal of this particular concern, so yeah ... I prefer capitalism over socialism.

 

[PureX]

I would disagree with receiving all the profits, but they should, being the persons who put in the work and time to create the business, receive higher wages than those working for them.

But that's not how capitalism works. Capitalism gives the owner/investor COMPLETE control over the busines enterprise, which will then result in him extracting the maximum profit possible from that business enterprise. And in fact those owners/investors will fight to keep from sharing those profits with anyone else involved in that enterprise, regardless of the amount of value they may contribute to it. And that's not just the workers, but the vendors, the consumers, and the community as well. Capitalism is an antagonistic greed based system that pits the capital investor against everyone else involved in commercial enterprise while giving the investors the huge advantage of total control.

Beyond this, most business owners enjoy the gains, so their brain child's and creations should be in their hands to make the decisions for profit purposes.

That's not a logical sentence. Are you saying that because they enjoy the fruits of their greed, they should be allowed to be as greedy as they want?

Taxes are another aspect of this paradigm, which go up top to help aid other government programs.

Every organized society pays taxes to cover the cost of their being an organized society. Taxes do not stop greedy capitalists from being greedy capitalists, nor can taxes be expected to pay for all the damage that greed does to a culture and society.

Being in debt, 34 trillion alone is enough reason to choose a more capitalistic approach than a socialist one.

Capitalism is causing all that debt by absorbing the profits from our collective enterprise. And then not returning it to the society that generated it. Forcing that society to borrow money to maintain itself. So it certainly isn't going to be MORE capitalism that resolves it. That's like a drunk claiming that more alcohol will cure his alcoholism.

If a person disagrees with pay or work conditions, they may should have applied or accepted work elsewhere.

All the capitalists are equally greedy, and equally in control of all the business enterprise. So there is nowhere else to apply that will offer any better wages.

Fair wage act covers and remedies a great deal of this particular concern, so yeah ... I prefer capitalism over socialism.

What "fair wage act"? Wages have been stagnant in this country for many decades, while the price-gouging just continues to get worse and worse. Most Americans are being forced into poverty. But I guess you just shut your eyes to it and blame them. Because you're a capitalist.

 

[Balthazzar]

But that's not how capitalism works. Capitalism gives the owner/investor COMPLETE control over the busines enterprise, which will then result in him extracting the maximum profit possible from that business enterprise. And in fact those owners/investors will fight to keep from sharing those profits with anyone else involved in that enterprise, regardless of the amount of value they may contribute to it. And that's not just the workers, but the vendors, the consumers, and the community as well. Capitalism is an antagonistic greed based system that pits the capital investor against everyone else involved in commercial enterprise while giving the investors the huge advantage of total control.

That's not a logical sentence. Are you saying that because they enjoy the fruits of their greed, they should be allowed to be as greedy as they want?

Every organized society pays taxes to cover the cost of their being an organized society. Taxes do not stop greedy capitalists from being greedy capitalists, nor can taxes be expected to pay for all the damage that greed does to a culture and society.

Capitalism is causing all that debt by absorbing the profits from our collective enterprise. And then not returning it to the society that generated it. Forcing that society to borrow money to maintain itself. So it certainly isn't going to be MORE capitalism that resolves it. That's like a drunk claiming that more alcohol will cure his alcoholism.

All the capitalists are equally greedy, and equally in control of all the business enterprise. So there is nowhere else to apply that will offer any better wages.

What "fair wage act"? Wages have been stagnant in this country for many decades, while the price-gouging just continues to get worse and worse. Most Americans are being forced into poverty. But I guess you just shut your eyes to it and blame them. Because you're a capitalist.

I've heard quite a lot of criticism about capitalism, but none yet of this severity until today. Greed is less about profit margins and more about how we treat others in efforts for the gain. Most business, if as shady and corrupt as you suggest, would very likely fail due to the damage inflicted to its employees, communities, and consumers. It's ok, to have a different opinion about type of government and enterprises, but at the end of the day, capitalism will answer our deficit issues better, quicker, and safer than would socialism. Either way, we're looking at more than a few decades before we reclaim a surplus.