• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Independance, an ongoing struggle in North America

Balthazzar

Christian Evolutionist
The title makes me question if we ever truly won the revolutionary war or if it was simply the beginning of a much larger struggle for us in North America. By most accounts, it is suggested to be a win as we gained some independence from the British, but the years adding up to over two centuries and our struggle since, has me scratching my head in uncertainty.

Will we ever be able to truly claim our independence as a people or will the globalization of democracy leave us bound to other territories once more? Nato, the European union, and the foreign ministry all have a hand in our policies and politics. We the people are subject to these ruling powers, which makes us vulnerable to being forced into compliance.
 

Nakosis

Non-Binary Physicalist
Premium Member
Independence for the few in power to decide our fate as nation for the benefit of those with power. Otherwise I suspect our lives wouldn't have been much different if we had remained European vassals.
 

sun rise

The world is on fire
Premium Member
I agree in a vague way with the OP. The USA is what I would call an adolescent nation with full maturity ahead. But to me separation into a stand-alone people with no real connection to others is not what our destiny is. This is not a time when nations can possible not be involved with the rest of the world - it does not work. It is a time of great testing of who we are and will be as we reach national maturity.
 

Twilight Hue

Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
The title makes me question if we ever truly won the revolutionary war or if it was simply the beginning of a much larger struggle for us in North America. By most accounts, it is suggested to be a win as we gained some independence from the British, but the years adding up to over two centuries and our struggle since, has me scratching my head in uncertainty.

Will we ever be able to truly claim our independence as a people or will the globalization of democracy leave us bound to other territories once more? Nato, the European union, and the foreign ministry all have a hand in our policies and politics. We the people are subject to these ruling powers, which makes us vulnerable to being forced into compliance.
I don't think any population actually rules its government making independence a buzz word.
 

Balthazzar

Christian Evolutionist
I don't think any population actually rules its government making independence a buzz word.
You're suggesting the buzz word is bogus and always will be, then? I'll disagree as a citizen and suggest that our government is (us) the people and not the other way around.
 

Twilight Hue

Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
You're suggesting the buzz word is bogus and always will be, then? I'll disagree as a citizen and suggest that our government is (us) the people and not the other way around.
That would depend on who's giving the orders.
 

Stevicus

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
The title makes me question if we ever truly won the revolutionary war or if it was simply the beginning of a much larger struggle for us in North America. By most accounts, it is suggested to be a win as we gained some independence from the British, but the years adding up to over two centuries and our struggle since, has me scratching my head in uncertainty.

Will we ever be able to truly claim our independence as a people or will the globalization of democracy leave us bound to other territories once more? Nato, the European union, and the foreign ministry all have a hand in our policies and politics. We the people are subject to these ruling powers, which makes us vulnerable to being forced into compliance.

Well, of course we won the Revolutionary War in the sense that the British recognized U.S. independence, and other nations gave us diplomatic recognition as a sovereign country. In the early days of our Republic, our main concern was the possibility of losing our independence, since there were European nations which were still more powerful than we were. Our ships were vulnerable at sea, too.

Fortunately, European countries were too busy fighting each other that they didn't really bother with us, and we didn't really bother with them either. Back in those days, there were no threats from Asia or the Middle East either, so that also made a huge difference in our national security perceptions.

We probably could have reached a point of autarky after the Civil War, as our industries were starting to boom, and our resource base was immense.

We didn't really have to go to war with Spain over their lingering colonies in America, and we didn't need to take the Philippines at all. But we did, and that's where America's foreign policy and global aspirations started to take a turn for the worse.

By becoming one of the East Asian colonial powers, we also played a prominent role in pushing the Open China policy which put us on the playing field in East Asia - along with Britain, France, Germany, Japan, and Russia, among others.

We still didn't give up our independence, but the old line of "no foreign entanglements" was being crossed - and then there was no going back.

George Washington warned against this in his Farewell Address (Washington's Farewell Address - Wikisource, the free online library):


Observe good faith and justice towards all Nations; cultivate peace and harmony with all. Religion and Morality enjoin this conduct; and can it be, that good policy does not equally enjoin it? It will be worthy of a free, enlightened, and, at no distant period, a great Nation, to give to mankind the magnanimous and too novel example of a people always guided by an exalted justice and benevolence. Who can doubt, that, in the course of time and things, the fruits of such a plan would richly repay any temporary advantages, which might be lost by a steady adherence to it ? Can it be, that Providence has not connected the permanent felicity of a Nation with its Virtue? The experiment, at least, is recommended by every sentiment which ennobles human nature. Alas! is it rendered impossible by its vices ?

In the execution of such a plan, nothing is more essential, than that permanent, inveterate antipathies against particular Nations, and passionate attachments for others, should be excluded; and that, in place of them, just and amicable feelings towards all should be cultivated. The Nation, which indulges towards another an habitual hatred, or an habitual fondness, is in some degree a slave.


Although, America is not really being forced to do any of this. It's our choice, as we never gave up our independence.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
I agree in a vague way with the OP. The USA is what I would call an adolescent nation with full maturity ahead. But to me separation into a stand-alone people with no real connection to others is not what our destiny is. This is not a time when nations can possible not be involved with the rest of the world - it does not work. It is a time of great testing of who we are and will be as we reach national maturity.
About 2.5 centuries is pretty mature...just not geriatric yet.
Far older than Russia, Canuckistan, Australia, & many others.
 

lewisnotmiller

Grand Hat
Staff member
Premium Member
The title makes me question if we ever truly won the revolutionary war or if it was simply the beginning of a much larger struggle for us in North America. By most accounts, it is suggested to be a win as we gained some independence from the British, but the years adding up to over two centuries and our struggle since, has me scratching my head in uncertainty.

Will we ever be able to truly claim our independence as a people or will the globalization of democracy leave us bound to other territories once more? Nato, the European union, and the foreign ministry all have a hand in our policies and politics. We the people are subject to these ruling powers, which makes us vulnerable to being forced into compliance.
You might need to account for the impact of America on lots of other nations too, though. Does ANY nation stand alone? It seems not. Yet America has more ability to direct world events than basically any other nation.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
Russia emerged in the 9th Century AD, as the northernmost state of the Eastern Slavic people.
It later subsumed into the USSR.
It's current government is under a century old.

Ameristan was here long before the 9th century.
But it was fractured into smaller states with
governments different from now.
 

RestlessSoul

Well-Known Member
It later subsumed into the USSR.
It's current government is under a century old.

Ameristan was here long before the 9th century.
But it was fractured into smaller states with
governments different from now.


Russia and it’s people have a continuous history, language and culture dating back over 1000 years. The Russians of today are absolutely the inheritors of that history and culture; all the trauma and upheaval, the centuries of war and revolution, the political, economic, religious and legal institutions which came and went, often to return again; these are all contributory factors in the making of a mature nation state. Long after Putin is gone, Russia will be Russia, just as she was Russia before and after Peter the Great, before and after Stalin.

Russia, the kingdom of the Russ, like for example the kingdom of the Angles, the Franks etc), may be a young country in comparison to China; but America is different; your country is uniquely young. That’s not necessarily a bad thing, but to argue that Russia is as young as the USA, is palpably absurd.
 
Last edited:

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
Russia and it’s people have a continuous history, language and culture dating back over 1000 years. The Russians of today are absolutely the inheritors of that history and culture; all the trauma and upheaval, the centuries of war and revolution, the political, economic, religious and legal institutions which came and went, often to return again; these are all contributory factors in the making of a mature nation state. Long after Putin is gone, Russia will be Russia, just as she was Russia before and after Peter the Great, before and after Stalin.
Still, Russia as an independent government is young.
That is relevant to criticisms of USA for being young.
Russia, the kingdom of the Russ, like for example the kingdom of the Angles, the Franks etc), may be a young country in comparison to China; but America is different; your country is uniquely young. That’s not necessarily a bad thing, but to argue that Russia is as young as the USA, is palpably absurd.
China's government is also young.
 

RestlessSoul

Well-Known Member
Still, Russia as an independent government is young.
That is relevant to criticisms of USA for being young.

China's government is also young.


We’re all born anew every day, but the past is the past, and a nation’s connection to it’s past is perhaps something you, as a citizen of the USA, are unable to grasp conceptually.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
We’re all born anew every day, but the past is the past, and a nation’s connection to it’s past is perhaps something you, as a citizen of the USA, are unable to grasp conceptually.
tenor.gif
 

PureX

Veteran Member
Will we ever be able to truly claim our independence as a people or will the globalization of democracy leave us bound to other territories once more?
We aren't bound to any territories. We are bound to the people in those territories that share our own vision of what it means to be human. And how this humanity should be expressed and defended in the world.
Nato, the European union, and the foreign ministry all have a hand in our policies and politics. We the people are subject to these ruling powers, which makes us vulnerable to being forced into compliance.
The "lone wolf" fantasy of the ideal human condition is a lie that the real wolves among us like to tell us to try and justify their parasitic, predatory behavior. Because the truth is that it's only by our banding together that we can stop them from preying on us.

Don't fall for their lies. Humans are a collective, cooperative species. And the "lone wolves" are the predatory parasites always circling the collective, and looking to prey on it any way they can. ... For themselves.
 

Balthazzar

Christian Evolutionist
We aren't bound to any territories. We are bound to the people in those territories that share our own vision of what it means to be human. And how this humanity should be expressed and defended in the world.

The "lone wolf" fantasy of the ideal human condition is a lie that the real wolves among us like to tell us to try and justify their parasitic, predatory behavior. Because the truth is that it's only by our banding together that we can stop them from preying on us.

Don't fall for their lies. Humans are a collective, cooperative species. And the "lone wolves" are the predatory parasites always circling the collective, and looking to prey on it any way they can. ... For themselves.

The problem arises with the prospect of a larger conflict between our coalitions and our enemies. Our democratic process' are largely influenced by this paradigm, which makes us as citizens vulnerably forced into the compliances of the larger "us". This isn't to suggest that we no longer have a say in our policies, but that there now exists a dynamic that we are not yet accustomed to. Losing our allies is or would be a concern, but then so are larger conflicts with our names attached, per our alliances.
 
Top