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Incest.
- Thread starter Pardus
- Start date
Ardent Listener
Active Member
The in-laws.:sarcastic :biglaugh:Pardus said:
standing_on_one_foot
Well-Known Member
How close of incest are we talking? I mean, cousins creeps me out a bit, but not too much. I think sex between, say, parents and children is about the worst. Siblings is close, but not as bad. I just don't think that you need to be having sex with your parents, really. Maybe if you and your family members were the only people left and had to repopulate the earth or something, but short of that surely you could find someone else.
Anyone ever read Middlesex, by the way?
Anyone ever read Middlesex, by the way?
Firstly, I am not going to treat this from a religious angle; some of my Christian colleages have already done so, and I note that this was specifically posted in 'The living World' forum..........
http://www.pamramsey.com/incest.htm
LITERATURE REVIEW
There are several different types of sexual contact that are labelled as incest: father-daughter, stepfather-daughter, father-son, stepfather-son, mother-son, stepmother-son, mother-daughter, and stepmother-daughter. Those are all considered parental incest. The father-daughter type has garnered the most attention and is the most frequently reported.
There is another category of incest: sibling. Sibling incest can occur between brother sister, brother-brother, and sister-sister. The most common category is brother-sister. When discussing sibling incest, incest shall be defined as "sexually oriented physical contact between family members which must be kept secret...[such] incest can range from inappropriate touching or fondling to intercourse." (Canavan, 1992)
Although this paper is focusing on sibling incest, I will on occasion insert some information about incest in general. The impact and occurrence rate of sibling incest are two topics that are in debate by professionals. Historically, sibling incest was seen as less traumatic than adult-child incest. That belief is beginning to shatter. Also, the rate of sibling incest (brother-sister) is estimated to be "at least five times higher than parent child incest" (Cole, 1982; Finkelhor, 1978; Smith & Israel, 1987) (Canavan, 1992).
The literature suggests that the main reason sibling incest is seen as less traumatic than parent child incest is because no generational boundary is violated. By believing that the incest is not traumatic, or not serious, it leads to the incest not being recognized in females who seek professional counseling help. When the trauma is not recognized or perceived to be serious, it can further damage the psyche of the female victim.
Although not all sibling incest occurs with one aggressor and one victim, the effects can be just as damaging. Some sibling incest can occur out of a set of needs that both children have, such as: "a desire for affiliation and affection; a combating of loneliness, depression, and a sense of isolation; and a discharging of anxiety and tension due to stress." (Loredo, 1982)
There are notions that some brother-sister incest can be "positive" and result in a better sexual self image later in life.
I would claim that the above notion is sensible only when applying it to the traditional "playing doctor" games of very young children of the same age. But, I do not believe that it is sensible when applied too sibling incest between a several year older brother and younger sister.
Canavan lists six aspects, based on a compilation of existing literature, that can show that the sibling incest is more than just "normal sex exploration." The first is - enforced secrecy. "...sexualized contact which is kept secret due to fear, coercion, or threat cannot be considered harmless sex play." (Canavan, 1992)
The secrecy aspect of sibling incest is very damaging to the female involved. The female feels guilt and shame. She feels that she has to remain silent about what happened and worse, she will often feel that she was to blame for what happened to her.
The second aspect is the power differentials between the brother and the sister. Age is not the only determination of power. Often, the mere fact of the brother being male and the sister being female is enough to give the brother power over the sister. That sounds simplistic but males have always held traditional power over females. Whether the sister responds to the social pressure of males over females or whether she sees that power reflected in her family structure does not matter. If she feels powerless or threatened, she just might submit "to survive."
A younger female sibling may initially agree with her brother's incestuous attentions "to fool around," yet, that does not mean that consent was given. Although a sibling cooperated does not suggest that they understood the nature of sexual interaction. Significantly, a younger female sibling's consent to her brother's contact may suggest that she has been sexually abused earlier in her life.
The third aspect is the influence on sexual development. I, personally, find this aspect to be the most distasteful and the most damaging to the female. When the female's first sexual experience is with an older brother in a coercive, secret, powerless, guilt ridden atmosphere, that can form an imprint on her that can inhibit the development of a normal sexual identity. Guilt and shame can become identified with sexuality thus producing sexual dysfunctions ranging from painful intercourse to anxiety attacks to the abstinence of sex altogether.
The fourth aspect is individual aftereffects. Although these aftereffects can vary from individual to individual there are some that seem most common.
Incestuous abuse can range from unwanted/nonforceful kissing to forcible rape. Therefore, there is a wide range of severity. There are multiple studies that are contradictory in their determinations of whether the severity of the abuse coincides equally with the trauma reported by the victim.
After reviewing several different studies, I am confused whether a correct answer exists. Browne and Finkelhor (1985) report on several studies that claim that there is no "clear differentiation between the effects of genital fondling and intercourse (e.g., Anderson, Bach, and Griffith 1981; Fromuth 1983; and Tufts New England Medical Center 1984)." (Russell, 1986)
The studies done by Russell first seem to show a linear link between severity and trauma and between duration and trauma. After examining her studies, Russell indicates that although intuitively these factors should have a linear correlation they often do not because of the amount of significant variables that can be present.
The link between duration and trauma often has to deal with the type of incest perpetrator. The correlation between severity and trauma also did not create a perfect linear match, but, "the distinction between intercourse and genital foundling was important in predicting the degree of trauma reported by incest victims." (Russell, 1986)
One very interesting fact that Russell's survey found was "In cases where some positive feelings or ambivalence were present, the trauma was often greater than when the experience was totally unwanted." That finding contradicts those that believe brother sister incest can be discounted as a non abusive, non-harmful "playing doctor" activity.
The fifth aspect is disturbance in family dynamics. Smith and Israel (1987) found that the following family dynamics were involved in their study of 25 cases of sibling incest.
(The above is just an extract to the paper, you might like to look at the rest of it on the link I provided.)
http://www.pamramsey.com/incest.htm
LITERATURE REVIEW
There are several different types of sexual contact that are labelled as incest: father-daughter, stepfather-daughter, father-son, stepfather-son, mother-son, stepmother-son, mother-daughter, and stepmother-daughter. Those are all considered parental incest. The father-daughter type has garnered the most attention and is the most frequently reported.
There is another category of incest: sibling. Sibling incest can occur between brother sister, brother-brother, and sister-sister. The most common category is brother-sister. When discussing sibling incest, incest shall be defined as "sexually oriented physical contact between family members which must be kept secret...[such] incest can range from inappropriate touching or fondling to intercourse." (Canavan, 1992)
Although this paper is focusing on sibling incest, I will on occasion insert some information about incest in general. The impact and occurrence rate of sibling incest are two topics that are in debate by professionals. Historically, sibling incest was seen as less traumatic than adult-child incest. That belief is beginning to shatter. Also, the rate of sibling incest (brother-sister) is estimated to be "at least five times higher than parent child incest" (Cole, 1982; Finkelhor, 1978; Smith & Israel, 1987) (Canavan, 1992).
The literature suggests that the main reason sibling incest is seen as less traumatic than parent child incest is because no generational boundary is violated. By believing that the incest is not traumatic, or not serious, it leads to the incest not being recognized in females who seek professional counseling help. When the trauma is not recognized or perceived to be serious, it can further damage the psyche of the female victim.
Although not all sibling incest occurs with one aggressor and one victim, the effects can be just as damaging. Some sibling incest can occur out of a set of needs that both children have, such as: "a desire for affiliation and affection; a combating of loneliness, depression, and a sense of isolation; and a discharging of anxiety and tension due to stress." (Loredo, 1982)
There are notions that some brother-sister incest can be "positive" and result in a better sexual self image later in life.
"...prevailing notions suggest that if the experience occurs between young age-mates, if there is no betrayal of trust between the children, if it is a result of natural curiosity and experimentation, and if children are not traumatized by disapproving adults who discover their activity, the experience can be 'just another part of growing up'." (Forward & Buck, 1978, p. 85) (Canavan, 1992)
I would claim that the above notion is sensible only when applying it to the traditional "playing doctor" games of very young children of the same age. But, I do not believe that it is sensible when applied too sibling incest between a several year older brother and younger sister.
Canavan lists six aspects, based on a compilation of existing literature, that can show that the sibling incest is more than just "normal sex exploration." The first is - enforced secrecy. "...sexualized contact which is kept secret due to fear, coercion, or threat cannot be considered harmless sex play." (Canavan, 1992)
The secrecy aspect of sibling incest is very damaging to the female involved. The female feels guilt and shame. She feels that she has to remain silent about what happened and worse, she will often feel that she was to blame for what happened to her.
The second aspect is the power differentials between the brother and the sister. Age is not the only determination of power. Often, the mere fact of the brother being male and the sister being female is enough to give the brother power over the sister. That sounds simplistic but males have always held traditional power over females. Whether the sister responds to the social pressure of males over females or whether she sees that power reflected in her family structure does not matter. If she feels powerless or threatened, she just might submit "to survive."
A younger female sibling may initially agree with her brother's incestuous attentions "to fool around," yet, that does not mean that consent was given. Although a sibling cooperated does not suggest that they understood the nature of sexual interaction. Significantly, a younger female sibling's consent to her brother's contact may suggest that she has been sexually abused earlier in her life.
The third aspect is the influence on sexual development. I, personally, find this aspect to be the most distasteful and the most damaging to the female. When the female's first sexual experience is with an older brother in a coercive, secret, powerless, guilt ridden atmosphere, that can form an imprint on her that can inhibit the development of a normal sexual identity. Guilt and shame can become identified with sexuality thus producing sexual dysfunctions ranging from painful intercourse to anxiety attacks to the abstinence of sex altogether.
The fourth aspect is individual aftereffects. Although these aftereffects can vary from individual to individual there are some that seem most common.
"Long-term effects on the individual include: shattered trust of brothers and men in general; never marrying or making poor choices in marriage; poor self-concept; sexual promiscuity and using sex as the only way to relate to men; a tendency toward revictimization, sexual and otherwise; substance abuse; depression and other psychiatric symptoms such as dissociative experiences or loss of memory for large periods of the past; confusion between intimacy and sexuality; and a lack of support from family and society, who tend to blame the victim (Cole, 1982; Higgs, Canavan, & Meyer, 1992; Russell, 1986)."
Incestuous abuse can range from unwanted/nonforceful kissing to forcible rape. Therefore, there is a wide range of severity. There are multiple studies that are contradictory in their determinations of whether the severity of the abuse coincides equally with the trauma reported by the victim.
After reviewing several different studies, I am confused whether a correct answer exists. Browne and Finkelhor (1985) report on several studies that claim that there is no "clear differentiation between the effects of genital fondling and intercourse (e.g., Anderson, Bach, and Griffith 1981; Fromuth 1983; and Tufts New England Medical Center 1984)." (Russell, 1986)
The studies done by Russell first seem to show a linear link between severity and trauma and between duration and trauma. After examining her studies, Russell indicates that although intuitively these factors should have a linear correlation they often do not because of the amount of significant variables that can be present.
The link between duration and trauma often has to deal with the type of incest perpetrator. The correlation between severity and trauma also did not create a perfect linear match, but, "the distinction between intercourse and genital foundling was important in predicting the degree of trauma reported by incest victims." (Russell, 1986)
One very interesting fact that Russell's survey found was "In cases where some positive feelings or ambivalence were present, the trauma was often greater than when the experience was totally unwanted." That finding contradicts those that believe brother sister incest can be discounted as a non abusive, non-harmful "playing doctor" activity.
The fifth aspect is disturbance in family dynamics. Smith and Israel (1987) found that the following family dynamics were involved in their study of 25 cases of sibling incest.
"(a) parents who were distant and inaccessible physically and/or emotionally and whose lack of supervision of the children may have allowed childish playfulness to result in sexual relationships; (b) parents' stimulation of home sexual climate through visible sexual behavior, sexual contact with children, "seductive" behavior, or repressed sexuality which, paradoxically, may have increased children's interest in the forbidden; and (c) family secrets, particularly around extramarital affairs." (Canavan, 1992)
However, the above is not to be considered an absolute list of all family styles where sibling incest has occurred. (The above is just an extract to the paper, you might like to look at the rest of it on the link I provided.)
Aslong as you're not on of those gays that *****es about straight people kissing on oxford street, cause man i just want to slap those guys.Jensa said:The idea of straight sex grosses me out, but that doesn't mean I don't wish for straight people to have happy relationships.
Buttons*
Glass half Panda'd
straight sex is a smidgin different than incest. If two people want it, they can have it, but because of the way i've been raised, I would kind of freak out about it. Homosexual sex doesnt gross me out... its just not my prefrence. In my mind though, incest is a much different category than homosexual and heterosexual sex...(haha, how many times can we fit sex into a sentence?)Jensa said:The idea of straight sex grosses me out, but that doesn't mean I don't wish for straight people to have happy relationships.
Buttons*
Glass half Panda'd
who me? Well, heterosexual sex i'm fine with, doesnt bother me. (and it shouldnt since im straight) Homosexual sex doesnt bother me, if two people want to do it, that's their prefrence, it doesnt make me sick to my stomach though. To me, the thought of incest just makes me ill. I'm not sure why. I think it's my background always being in an Episcopal church and just knowing that it's "wrong". (what's wrong to me isnt to others) Which is another reason why i dont accept creation, because they would have had to have sex with their brothers and sisters. It's just not in my pattern of thinking. That's only the way I feel though. If incest is someone's thing, have at it, but i dont want to hear about it....
Fluffy
A fool
If it were the kind of evidence I would feel happy about accepting then sure. There are many things in science that I feel I don't know enough about to simply accept but if there was sufficient (for me) evidence to show that incest was harmful to one or both parties, and I already think there are some circumstances where this is true, then I would not find tolerating such circumstances necessary. I would also say the same for hetero and homosexual sex (as I already do in the case of rape for example).