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Featured In the Bible Abraham is called to Sacrifice his son...

Discussion in 'Seekers Circle' started by Ellen Brown, Aug 31, 2019.

  1. Brickjectivity

    Brickjectivity Veteran Member
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    Two indicators that its not to be taken as a literal event by us:
    • Killing Isaac would be murder in the pentateuch
    • Jeremiah 19:5 "They have built the high places of Baal to burn their children in the fire as offerings to Baal—something I did not command or mention, nor did it enter my mind."
    The question is why is this story there. @leov says its a teaching tool. Abraham is a peacemaker. When his name is Abram he has a treaty with five tribes, and later he visits the king of peace, Melchizedek. At this meeting Abraham turns some kind of corner, but the story doesn't flesh it out. Maybe this incident with Isaac it is to illustrate that Abraham's mission will not fail. The rest of the world probably thinks that he and his kind will be wiped out by the nations, but he just keeps going. The world thinks his efforts are pointless, but we're being made to see that no they aren't pointless. Its not wrong to put war away, to cry instead of reeking vengeance on every insult. His son Isaac, and his grandson Jacob also are peacemakers. This is how they differ from Esau and Ishmael. You can see them pacifying enemies in the stories. Its Abraham who thinks that peacemaking is the wave of the future, but the nations don't believe it and think its nonsense.
     
  2. sooda

    sooda Veteran Member

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    For years and years Abraham was a warlord.. Let me find the verses for that.
     
  3. sooda

    sooda Veteran Member

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    Both...
     
  4. fantome profane

    fantome profane Keep safe, and keep your neighbours safe.
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    I am often amazed at the great knowledge and understanding displayed by members of this board.

    There are people in my life that I talk to on a daily bases, and I still don’t really understand how they think.

    But some posters have the amazing ability to understand the psychology of people living 3500 years ago based on a smattering of incomplete texts. I am just incredibly impressed.
     
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  5. sooda

    sooda Veteran Member

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    @Brickjectivity
    @Ellen Brown

    Genesis 14:14-16 King James Version (KJV)

    14 And when Abram heard that his brother was taken captive, he armed his trained servants, born in his own house, three hundred and eighteen, and pursued them unto Dan.

    15 And he divided himself against them, he and his servants, by night, and smote them, and pursued them unto Hobah, which is on the left hand of Damascus.

    16 And he brought back all the goods, and also brought again his brother Lot, and his goods, and the women also, and the people.

    King James Version (KJV)
     
  6. blü 2

    blü 2 Well-Known Member
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    There are four separate instances of human sacrifice in the Tanakh.

    The first is in Genesis 2:9+ where God commands Abraham to sacrifice Isaac but sends an angel at the very last minute with the message, "Only jokin'".

    To answer your question, I'd say that Abraham was to make the sacrifice and Isaac was to be sacrificed ie Abraham was to get the credit.

    The second is in Judges 11, where Jephthah, under the influence of the spirit of God, makes a deal with God that if he can have a particular military victory, he'll sacrifice the first who comes out the gate to greet him when he returns victorious. The Lord gives him the victory, the first to come out the gate is Jephthah's daughter, Jephthah says, That's a real shame but a deal's a deal, and sacrifices her. The Lord sees to it that he becomes Judge (boss) of Israel.

    The third is in 2 Samuel 21. David says, Why are we having a famine, Lord? and is told "There is bloodguilt on Saul and on his house, because he put the Gibeonites to death. Sort it out." David says to the Gibeonites, "What do you want to fix this.," They reply, "Give us seven of Saul's sons and we'll impale them before the Lord." So seven are rounded up, impaled before the Lord, and the famine is ended.

    The fourth is Jonah, who commands the crew to throw him overboard to appease the Lord; which they do, but you know the rest.

    And then there's the NT.
     
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  7. Brickjectivity

    Brickjectivity Veteran Member
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    Genesis 14 there are fighting men; but in 14:25 you can see he is not a warlord and that the men are from 3 allies: Aner, Eshkol and Mamre. Abram (before he is Abraham) is living in Mamre among these people, and their exactly 318 fighting men go to fight when another country kidnaps his nephew, Lot. They win, defeating five allied kings and they bring Lot back along with his goods and Sodom's people and their goods. They go to a city called Peace. Melchizedek, king of that city, blesses Abraham. Abraham reveals that he has sworn not to allow himself to be enriched by the king of Sodom. Its an important point, since later on he does become very wealthy; and he does so without taking from others. In other words he is not a warlord though he has allies.
     
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  8. Wandering Monk

    Wandering Monk Well-Known Member

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    I think the myth of the Binding of Isaac is a morality tale explaining why Israelite culture did not practice child sacrifice.
     
  9. leov

    leov Well-Known Member

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    We need to ponder the way Sons of Israel behaved when the sold his brother to be slave after the almost killed him and the way they behaved in Egypt trying to protect other brother, it shows newly born empathy, brotherly love. Sometimes OT shows negative side of side to show later the positive changes of a character.
     
  10. sooda

    sooda Veteran Member

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    They are his 318 trained, armed servants.

    Genesis 14:14-16 King James Version (KJV)
    14 And when Abram heard that his brother was taken captive, he armed his trained servants, born in his own house, three hundred and eighteen, and pursued them unto Dan.

    15 And he divided himself against them, he and his servants, by night, and smote them, and pursued them unto Hobah, which is on the left hand of Damascus.

    16 And he brought back all the goods, and also brought again his brother Lot, and his goods, and the women also, and the people.

    King James Version (KJV)
     
  11. sooda

    sooda Veteran Member

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    Whether the Canaanites respected Abraham as a powerful chieftain, a warlord, a wealthy herdsman, or a holy man depends upon how one parses the Scriptural language.

    One could, however, question whether an accurate assessment of their attitudes is any event either relevant or instructive (to us as Jews but also to other, non-Jewish readers of the Bible).

    Is it not sufficient for us as readers of Scripture and inheritors of the faith bequeathed by Abraham almost 4,000 years ago, to know, understand, and appreciate his true character without regard to how he may have been viewed by others?

    https://anshesholomnewrochelle.org/sermons/the-canaanites-view-of-abraham/
     
  12. sooda

    sooda Veteran Member

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    Chieftain and Warrior

    Abraham’s Trained Men

    We’re completely unused to the very extended families and massive households with large numbers of servants, hired hands, armed retainers and so on that a careful reading of Scripture makes clear Abraham’s was, so we tend to read our own very nuclear families onto the story without even thinking about it.

    But it’s obvious from the details we read (and take in without playing out the implications) that Abraham’s household was pretty large, and that he was a powerful chieftain in his own right.

    snip

    Who were these “trained men”? How could three hundred men make the armies of six kings flee from them, so that they pursued them for several days’ journey?

    snip

    But this battle of six kings against five provides one of the few possible clues to date the whole Abrahamic period, and scholars argue back and forth as only scholars can over the identities of these rulers that the Bible names.

    But we can say some things about the time period and the sort of warfare we’d expect to find.
     
  13. Brickjectivity

    Brickjectivity Veteran Member
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    How does this equate to calling him a warlord? He's a shepherd, and he supports himself that way. His sons Isaac and Jacob go out of their way not to attack people -- even people who wrong them. He's no warlord. A warlord is a different thing.
     
  14. sooda

    sooda Veteran Member

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    Discounting that the defeat was a huge campaign.
     
  15. PureX

    PureX Veteran Member

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    We know this is how the Israelites lived, even into the time of Christ, which gives a whole new meaning the "son of God" declaration. I'm sure there will be data on it, somewhere.
     
  16. Ellen Brown

    Ellen Brown Well-Known Member
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    That's the story.
     
  17. Cooky

    Cooky Landonius Maximus Prime

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    I would rather go to hell, than kill one of my children.
     
  18. Cooky

    Cooky Landonius Maximus Prime

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    I can't stand Abraham the monster, who would kill his own child.

    This is why I reject my religion being called "Abrahamic". Abraham is like the least significant person I can think of in regards to my religious faith.

    The Muslims can have him. I don't acknowledge him.
     
    #38 Cooky, Aug 31, 2019
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 31, 2019
  19. Brickjectivity

    Brickjectivity Veteran Member
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    A warlord would take property, seize people, live as a warrior. Warlords aren't shepherds. The man in the story may have had to defend his nephew, but its not the story of a warlord.
     
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  20. sooda

    sooda Veteran Member

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    He was a Bedouin chieftain with 318 armed, dedicated warriors at his command.. in his family.
     
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