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In his image?

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
NoName said:
I was simply giving a second way of looking at it. Trying to make her think. Forcing her to look at the scriptures, to scrutinize them, and to figure out that they were indeed the same context.
NoName,

I believe I've thought about this in considerably more depth than any of the posters who've offered an opposing viewpoint. All I've heard from anyone is that I'm wrong. But no one has given me any reason to believe I am. I, on the other hand, have posed questions no one has been able to answer, as well as providing additional scriptures to substantiate my position. The only scripture anybody else has been able to produce is the one that says, "God is spirit." I don't disagree with that in the slightest. After all, I am a spirit, and so are you. We are spirits clothed in bodies of flesh. In other words, we are "embodied spirits." "God is spirit" does not necessarily mean that He is an "unembodied spirit."

Kathryn
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
NoName said:
Maybe the apostles didn't know of a better word to describe it. Sometimes I settle for an inferior word because I can't think of a good one, which especially happens to me under stress, which I would definitely be feeling if I saw a person who I knew was dead suddenly walking around.
Well, they obviously "saw" something. And they obviously didn't realize it was the resurrected Christ. Since you apparently don't think they knew a better word to describe it, what in the world do you think they "thought they saw"? What word do you think they were looking for?
 

jonny

Well-Known Member
Katzpur said:
NoName,

I believe I've thought about this in considerably more depth than any of the posters who've offered an opposing viewpoint. All I've heard from anyone is that I'm wrong. But no one has given me any reason to believe I am. I, on the other hand, have posed questions no one has been able to answer, as well as providing additional scriptures to substantiate my position. The only scripture anybody else has been able to produce is the one that says, "God is spirit." I don't disagree with that in the slightest. After all, I am a spirit, and so are you. We are spirits clothed in bodies of flesh. In other words, we are "embodied spirits." "God is spirit" does not necessarily mean that He is an "unembodied spirit."

Kathryn
To this I would add that the same people who say that the scripture "God is Spirit" is literal, say that the scriptures that say that God has a body are figurative. Unfortunately, they are not able to provide any proof either way. I choose to believe that all the scriptures are true and that he is probably both and that we were created in his image.
 

Scuba Pete

Le plongeur avec attitude...
I think I provided quite a few scriptures that discount a "flesh and blood" body. At least, I think it was in this thread. I will have to go and check.
 

Scuba Pete

Le plongeur avec attitude...
Well, the scriptures are out there, but it will be sometime tomorrow before I get to this! Iam tired from dealing with this hurricane! :D
 

Feathers in Hair

World's Tallest Hobbit
NetDoc said:
Well, the scriptures are out there, but it will be sometime tomorrow before I get to this! Iam tired from dealing with this hurricane! :D
You've got my sympathies! I've only ever been through one, when Hugo hit S.C. eons ago, and I still have nightmares from it.
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
Hey, NetDoc!


It apparently wasn't on this thread that you posted the verses you're thinking of... unless it's this post you were referring to.

NetDoc said:
According to my study of the scripture, our image that comes from God is spiritual and not physical.
NetDoc said:

John 4:21 Jesus declared, "Believe me, woman, a time is coming when you will worship the Father neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem. 22 You Samaritans worship what you do not know; we worship what we do know, for salvation is from the Jews. 23 Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks. 24 God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in spirit and in truth."
So are you saying that if God is spirit, we are also spirit? If we are created in His image, and He is spirit, are we then also spirit?

The problem is: we are quite uncomfortable with us being "just spirit" at the very end. The Scriptures refer to this as being "Incorruptible": it's the part of us that continues on after our physical bodies cease to be.
Do you not believe in a literal resurrection -- the reuniting of the spirit with a new perfected body?


29 Jesus replied, "You are in error because you do not know the Scriptures or the power of God. 30 At the resurrection people will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven. 31 But about the resurrection of the dead—have you not read what God said to you, 32' I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob'? He is not the God of the dead but of the living." 33 When the crowds heard this, they were astonished at his teaching.

There won't be any sexes, and no physical body like we are used to.
I really am confused. First, what evidence have you that angels are incorporeal, spirit beings? Second, I don't think I've ever heard a Christian say they don't believe our physical bodies will be resurrected. When Jesus was resurrected, his spirit rejoined his body. I thought that all Christians believed that this will be the case with all of us.

Kathryn
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
NetDoc said:
Well, the scriptures are out there, but it will be sometime tomorrow before I get to this! Iam tired from dealing with this hurricane! :D
Oh, man! That is terrible! I'm sorry you were affected by it, Doc.
 

greatcalgarian

Well-Known Member
Let us refresh ourselves on the original post before going off too tangentially:
This passage has me wondering...
Genesis 1:27 “So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him”
Do you think that God looks human? And if so is he male? And if so, what type of human do you think he looks like? For instance, what is his ethnicity? Is he balding or does he have a full head of hair? What do you suppose his height and weight are? And most importantly, does the male God have nipples? And if he does have nipples, what is the purpose of this? Why would God need nipples? Or if he does not, does that mean that Adam didn't have nipples either? And if Adam had no nipples, why do all other men have them?
If God is spiritual only, then there is no need to discuss any further regarding to the original first post.
If God is both spiritual and physical, then anything that can help the person posting the first post regarding what exactly we understand by physical, especially the interpretation of "man being the image of God". If literal translation of Genesis is correct, then I can visualize better how God looks like, especially He picked the Jews as His chosen people, and He sent His son to be born by a Jewish Mary, and so He is most likely look like some one I posted in earlier posts.

If God has no form, or non-visualizable by us human being while we are in this life, why bother to inspire Moses to write down:Genesis 1:27 “So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him”
 

Scuba Pete

Le plongeur avec attitude...
I Corinthians 15:35 But someone may ask, "How are the dead raised? With what kind of body will they come?" 36 How foolish! What you sow does not come to life unless it dies. 37 When you sow, you do not plant the body that will be, but just a seed, perhaps of wheat or of something else. 38 But God gives it a body as he has determined, and to each kind of seed he gives its own body. 39 All flesh is not the same: Men have one kind of flesh, animals have another, birds another and fish another. 40 There are also heavenly bodies and there are earthly bodies; but the splendor of the heavenly bodies is one kind, and the splendor of the earthly bodies is another. 41 The sun has one kind of splendor, the moon another and the stars another; and star differs from star in splendor.

42 So will it be with the resurrection of the dead. The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable; 43 it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; 44 it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body.
If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. 45 So it is written: "The first man Adam became a living being"; the last Adam, a life-giving spirit. 46 The spiritual did not come first, but the natural, and after that the spiritual. 47 The first man was of the dust of the earth, the second man from heaven. 48 As was the earthly man, so are those who are of the earth; and as is the man from heaven, so also are those who are of heaven. 49 And just as we have borne the likeness of the earthly man, so shall we bear the likeness of the man from heaven.

50 I declare to you, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53 For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. 54 When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: "Death has been swallowed up in victory."
55 "Where, O death, is your victory?
Where, O death, is your sting?" 56 The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law. 57 But thanks be to God! He gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ. 58 Therefore, my dear brothers, stand firm. Let nothing move you. Always give yourselves fully to the work of the Lord, because you know that your labor in the Lord is not in vain. NIV

Can we FULLY understand this? Probably not. The author has chosen to merely label our spiritual "body" as imperishable. But he makes a CLEAR distinction betweent he two! Time and time again, God points out that we focus on the EXTERNAL when it is our HEART that is important. The spiritual far outweighs the physical and unlike our bodies, it will never cease to be.

This permeates our entire being. We weep and mourn when someone's physical body dies. Yet we never even notice when their soul dies. Spritual death is when we lose contact with God, and it is FAR more tragic than any physical death we can encounter.
 

jonny

Well-Known Member
NetDoc said:
Can we FULLY understand this? Probably not. The author has chosen to merely label our spiritual "body" as imperishable. But he makes a CLEAR distinction betweent he two! Time and time again, God points out that we focus on the EXTERNAL when it is our HEART that is important. The spiritual far outweighs the physical and unlike our bodies, it will never cease to be.

This permeates our entire being. We weep and mourn when someone's physical body dies. Yet we never even notice when their soul dies. Spritual death is when we lose contact with God, and it is FAR more tragic than any physical death we can encounter.
First off, I agree that it is the spiritual that is more important than the external, but I believe that this discussion is important because I don't believe we can fully understand ourselves and our potential unless we understand the character of our creator. I also agree with your statment that we can not fully understand what it means, but there are bits and pieces given to us to help.

40 There are also heavenly bodies and there are earthly bodies; but the splendor of the heavenly bodies is one kind, and the splendor of the earthly bodies is another. 41 The sun has one kind of splendor, the moon another and the stars another; and star differs from star in splendor.
Many historical church leaders have made statements agree with Joseph Smith that this scripture teaches us about the resurrection and that all heavenly bodies are not created equal. If you'd like me to get some of these for you let me know.

50 I declare to you, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.
I also agree with the scriptures here also. We don't believe that God has blood. The infamous scripture in the LDS church states that God "has a body of flesh and bones, as tangible as a man's."

The problem with both of these scriptures is they tell us about us, not about God. I would argue that since we were created in God's image and that God is our Father, that we probably look like him and will end up in a state or form similar to his. In that regard, these scriptures are very relavant to the discussion.
 

NoName

Member
Katzpur said:
NoName,

I believe I've thought about this in considerably more depth than any of the posters who've offered an opposing viewpoint. All I've heard from anyone is that I'm wrong. But no one has given me any reason to believe I am. I, on the other hand, have posed questions no one has been able to answer, as well as providing additional scriptures to substantiate my position. The only scripture anybody else has been able to produce is the one that says, "God is spirit." I don't disagree with that in the slightest. After all, I am a spirit, and so are you. We are spirits clothed in bodies of flesh. In other words, we are "embodied spirits." "God is spirit" does not necessarily mean that He is an "unembodied spirit."

Kathryn
That's why I'm having such a hard time arguing it! :biglaugh:. I thought I would be cool and try to think the opposite of what I believe, and try to find evidence for it, but it didn't work out too well, now did it?

As for the apostles. They could have been thinking "ghost."
 

Merlin

Active Member
NetDoc said:
I Corinthians 15:35 But someone may ask, "How are the dead raised? With what kind of body will they come?" 36 How foolish! What you sow does not come to life unless it dies. 37 When you sow, you do not plant the body that will be, but just a seed, perhaps of wheat or of something else. 38 But God gives it a body as he has determined, and to each kind of seed he gives its own body. 39 All flesh is not the same: Men have one kind of flesh, animals have another, birds another and fish another. 40 There are also heavenly bodies and there are earthly bodies; but the splendor of the heavenly bodies is one kind, and the splendor of the earthly bodies is another. 41 The sun has one kind of splendor, the moon another and the stars another; and star differs from star in splendor.

42 So will it be with the resurrection of the dead. The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable; 43 it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; 44 it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body.
If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. 45 So it is written: "The first man Adam became a living being"; the last Adam, a life-giving spirit. 46 The spiritual did not come first, but the natural, and after that the spiritual. 47 The first man was of the dust of the earth, the second man from heaven. 48 As was the earthly man, so are those who are of the earth; and as is the man from heaven, so also are those who are of heaven. 49 And just as we have borne the likeness of the earthly man, so shall we bear the likeness of the man from heaven.

50 I declare to you, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53 For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. 54 When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: "Death has been swallowed up in victory."
55 "Where, O death, is your victory?
Where, O death, is your sting?" 56 The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law. 57 But thanks be to God! He gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ. 58 Therefore, my dear brothers, stand firm. Let nothing move you. Always give yourselves fully to the work of the Lord, because you know that your labor in the Lord is not in vain. NIV

Can we FULLY understand this? Probably not. The author has chosen to merely label our spiritual "body" as imperishable. But he makes a CLEAR distinction betweent he two! Time and time again, God points out that we focus on the EXTERNAL when it is our HEART that is important. The spiritual far outweighs the physical and unlike our bodies, it will never cease to be.

This permeates our entire being. We weep and mourn when someone's physical body dies. Yet we never even notice when their soul dies. Spritual death is when we lose contact with God, and it is FAR more tragic than any physical death we can encounter.
Well said.

That is very powerful scriptural evidence, but can we also offer simple commonsense.

If God can create billions of galaxies, why would he choose to 'stick himself' with this strange construction of a human body? Our hands evolved to use tools. Why would God need those? If he does, why not four hands, they would come in useful occasionally? If he doesn't have to walk about, why have legs?

When I questioned whether this body would eat and drink and have other bodily functions, I was then told that although it was a body it was a heavenly body and all of those rather nasty pictures were inappropriate.

We cannot imagine what God is made of, or what he looks like. He did have to give early primitive people a picture they could understand because they needed to worship something that they could imagine. It should be time for us to be through that.

As I said in an earlier reply; of all the possible forms that could be taken by a being of the humungeous power that God has demonstrated, a 5'6" body looking like 'Osama bin Ladin' does not seem a reasonable one to choose. Or do you think that is likely?
 

greatcalgarian

Well-Known Member
Merlin said:
As I said in an earlier reply; of all the possible forms that could be taken by a being of the humungeous power that God has demonstrated, a 5'6" body looking like 'Osama bin Ladin' does not seem a reasonable one to choose. Or do you think that is likely?
If God said man is made after His image to our grand grand grand father, immaterial of the mentality of those during that time, God was telling a lie, if He does not look like Osama bin Ladin, and God never lies.

There are many pagans that worship things or concept like wind, darkness, sun, or others. So they can comprehend those abstract things. So why is it necessary for God to tell a lie to His chosen people? And from the conversation of God with Adam and adam's sons etc, apparently, He appeared to them as our human bodily form. So the arguement that God has to tell early primitives that He looks like human in order for them to worship them properly is not logical or acceptable.

If we want to accept God inspired Moses (who may or may not have seen God or face to face with God, depending on which passage of the scripture you quote) to write down that God created us after His image (as in Genesis), "Osama bin Ladin"-like appearance or physical look of God is the inevidable conclusion.
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
NoName said:
As for the apostles. They could have been thinking "ghost."
Why do you think the phrases "Holy Ghost" and "Holy Spirit" are interchangeable? The word "spirit" is a synonym for the word "ghost" in the scriptures.
 

NoName

Member
Katzpur said:
Why do you think the phrases "Holy Ghost" and "Holy Spirit" are interchangeable? The word "spirit" is a synonym for the word "ghost" in the scriptures.
Yes, and I'm sure all the apostles were also linguists, who exactly which words were synonems. I'm not a linguist, nor do I speak greek, so I can't be sure which word specifically they were thinking of.
 

Merlin

Active Member
greatcalgarian said:
If God said man is made after His image to our grand grand grand father, immaterial of the mentality of those during that time, God was telling a lie, if He does not look like Osama bin Ladin, and God never lies.

If we want to accept God inspired Moses (who may or may not have seen God or face to face with God, depending on which passage of the scripture you quote) to write down that God created us after His image (as in Genesis), "Osama bin Ladin"-like appearance or physical look of God is the inevidable conclusion.
I will bet we do not change the pictures we used to teach people. Because, if God looks like that, then his son does also.
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
NoName said:
Yes, and I'm sure all the apostles were also linguists, who exactly which words were synonems. I'm not a linguist, nor do I speak greek, so I can't be sure which word specifically they were thinking of.
A person doesn't have to be a linguist or know the definition of a synonym in order to use two words interchangeably. Whether the Apostles meant "ghost" or "spirit" doesn't change things one bit. They did not realize that they were seeing the resurrected Christ. They thought they'd seen either a ghost or a spirit -- which pretty much indicates that a ghost or a spirit need not be invisible. Otherwise, Jesus would probably have called that to their attention. Instead, he merely pointed out that if he were a being of spirit only, He would not have flesh and bones as He did.
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
Malus01 said:
So he could easily, like man, be slain...
First off, that quote is not from the LDS scriptures (famous or infamous). It is a quote taken from a funeral sermon by Joseph Smith. There is a difference between a mortal body and an immortal body. God has an immortal body. Before Christ was crucified, He had a mortal body. That's why He was able to experience death. After He was resurrected, His body was made immortal. He can no longer die. Once we are resurrected, we too will have immortal bodies. They will no longer be subject to death or decay. That's what resurrection is all about -- the reuniting of the spirit with a new, immortal body.
 
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