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In his image?

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by Faint, Oct 21, 2005.

  1. Deut 13:1

    Deut 13:1 Well-Known Member

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    Before I respond, didn't you agree with what I said in the other thread about it???
     
  2. NoName

    NoName Member

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    Isn't that what all doctrinal arguments are? Is god a trinity? Semantics. Do we need baptims? Semantics. Look at all the different denominations. They're really only different because of semantics.

    Maybe they were using the words in two different contexts.
     
  3. jonny

    jonny Well-Known Member

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    To the scriptures that say that God is spirit, let me add these:

    Gen. 1: 27 God created man in his own image.
    Gen. 5: 1 God created man, in the likeness of God made he him.
    Gen. 9: 6 in the image of God made he man.
    Gen. 18: 33 Lord went his way, as soon as he had left communing.
    Gen. 32: 30 I have seen God face to face.
    Ex. 24: 10 they saw the God of Israel, there was under his feet.
    Ex. 31: 18(Deut. 9: 10) written with the finger of God.
    Ex. 33: 11 Lord spake unto Moses face to face.
    Ex. 33: 23 thou shalt see my back parts: but my face shall not.
    Num. 12: 8 With him will I speak mouth to mouth.
    Matt. 3: 17 a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son.
    Matt. 4: 4 every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.
    Matt. 17: 5 a voice out of the cloud.
    Luke 24: 39 for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.
    John 14: 9 he that hath seen me hath seen the Father.
    Acts 7: 56 the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.
    Rom. 8: 29 predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son.
    2 Cor. 4: 4 Christ, who is the image of God.
    Philip. 2: 6 who, being in the form of God.
    Philip. 3: 21 our vile body . . . fashioned like unto his glorious body.
    Heb. 1: 3 the express image of his person.
    James 3: 9 men which are made after the similitude of God.
    1 Jn. 3: 2 when he shall appear, we shall be like him.
    Rev. 22: 4 they shall see his face.
     
  4. jonny

    jonny Well-Known Member

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    I think we agreed that we had two different, but valid, interpretations.

    This was your statement:
     
  5. jonny

    jonny Well-Known Member

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    Maybe they weren't. :cool:
     
  6. greatcalgarian

    greatcalgarian Well-Known Member

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    I was referring to your comment:
    and

    which point to some degree of amonistity, and starting to get a bit high:D
     
  7. steven876

    steven876 New Member

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    In reply....

    1. The books, range from the bible with translation of Rashi, and Ramban (two great schollars) as well as the kabalah which are probably all avialable to purchase online, in which language though, i cant be sure, and other books that are probably not avialable online which may be avialable in hostoric libraries.

    2. I did not read any of the replies, i just replied to the first post.

    3. I write G-D out of respect for God, it shows uniqiness.
    3b. you are not allowed to write the name of G-d and then erase it, ofcourse this is probably foremost for the name in hebrew, however I once heard of a great shcollar say that you must respect the united states currency (not throw it on the floor, etc...) becuase it has the name "God" where it says "In God we trust", so I try to respect that.
     
  8. may

    may Well-Known Member

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    . to worship God in spirit and truth , means tostudy and apply God’s Word, our spirit, or mental disposition, must be attuned to his. (1 Corinthians 2:8-12) For our worship to be acceptable to Jehovah, it must also be rendered to him with truth. It must conform to what God’s Word, the Bible, reveals about him and his purposes

    if a flesh-and-blood human were to stand in the immediate presence of Jehovah God, the experience would prove fatal. Jehovah himself told Moses: "You are not able to see my face, because no man may see me and yet live."—Exodus 33:20; John 1:18

    That should not surprise us. Moses got to see just a part of Jehovah’s glory, evidently through an angelic representative. With what effect? Moses’ face "emitted rays" for some time afterward. The Israelites feared even to look directly at Moses’ face

    And Jehovah said further: "Here is a place with me, and you must station yourself upon the rock. And it has to occur that while my glory is passing by I must place you in a hole in the rock, and I must put my palm over you as a screen until I have passed by. After that I must take my palm away, and you will indeed see my back. But my face may not be seen .........Exodus 33;21-23
    God is a Spirit Pneu´ma

    The Greek pneu´ma (spirit) comes from pne´o, meaning "breathe or blow," and the Hebrew ru´ach (spirit) is believed to come from a root having the same meaning. Ru´ach and pneu´ma, then, basically mean "breath" but have extended meanings beyond that basic sense. They can also mean wind; the vital force in living creatures; one’s spirit; spirit persons, including God and his angelic creatures; and God’s active force, or holy spirit. (Compare Koehler and Baumgartner’s Lexicon in Veteris Testamenti Libros, Leiden, 1958, pp. 877-879; Brown, Driver, and Briggs’ Hebrew and English Lexicon of the Old Testament, 1980, pp. 924-926; Theological Dictionary of the New Testament, edited by G. Friedrich, translated by G. Bromiley, 1971, Vol. VI, pp. 332-451.) All these meanings have something in common: They all refer to that which is invisible to human sight and which gives evidence of force in motion. Such invisible force is capable of producing visible effects.


     
  9. steven876

    steven876 New Member

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    Reply to "Johny"
    Here's what you do....

    Take these parts....(which we KNOW were written by God)




    END HERE!

    -------------
    Then take these parts, which were written by men (who had no clue (in my opinion) of what they were talking about, probably about humans...) and move them elsewhere...(erase them from this earth)





    END HERE!


    Now, if I may explain each verse....


    First off, you must understand three VERY IMPORTANT aspects if the interpretation of the bible.

    1. The bible (From the first word in Genesis to the last word in Deuteronomy) (the rest was written by prophets) (and your additions by people) was written by GOD in a language made FOR HUMANS to understand (i.e. "With an inclined arm did GOD strike forth", God does not have an arm, however speaking in relativity to how a human would strike and for "HUMANS" to relate to the "ACTION" which God did, it is written that way. (this is key in understanding the bible) (also how many made/make their mistakes in their interpretation))

    2. There is a difference between GOD himself, and the angels, which are not GOD but are his creation and his messengers. They carry God's will for him and are Godly indeed. However they are not GOD.


    3. A lock without its key is useless, so is the Bible without its translation, you can not achieve the purpose of the bible without its interpretation, therefore they are ONE. When God would say the words of the bible to Moses for him to write them, he would say them WITH the interpretation to each and every word.



    Gen. 1: 27 God created man in his own image.
    discussed a lot in this article, in his own image means with his characteristics, i.e. characteristics that go beyond the animal/tree life etc... that we have free choice and can "understand".
    Gen. 5: 1 God created man, in the likeness of God made he him.
    same as above. with his great characteristics (pitiful, just etc...)
    Gen. 9: 6 in the image of God made he man.
    same as above, GOD does not have an "image" yet he possesses characteristics.
    Gen. 18: 33 Lord went his way, as soon as he had left communing.
    The "lord" here is speaking in human nature, as it is human nature to "leave" when finished a given task, here God had finished speaking to Abraham about the task of Sodom. The "lord" also to be interpreted as God speaking in a revelation or through prophecy, not like humans speak, but similar to the way we talk in dreams (yet dreams are 1/60th or less of a prophecy)
    Gen. 32: 30 I have seen God face to face.
    (i believe its verse 31) Jacob is relating "God" to the angel who fought with him. It is interpreted that his brother Esau sent an angel of havoc to harm him, yet Jacob fought him off, and thus saw him, to praise the lord he called the place "The face of God" God here meaning "Angel".
    Ex. 24: 10 they saw the God of Israel, there was under his feet.
    They saw what is interpreted to mean an image or prophecy that showed how God is one in this entire universe, it was in image of great statute and importance it would instill in their heart of hearts for ever that God is the power above all and that he is one solely in his oneness in the seventh of the heavens and from there he shines his light (power of life) down to this earth. (i.e. if you understand natural death you can understand this better)
    Ex. 31: 18(Deut. 9: 10) written with the finger of God.
    God does not have a "finger" yet like I said earlier the Bible speaks in the language of humans, humans write with their hands/fingers. This is also written to show the importance of the bible (or more correct the tablets), since no other book says written in the finger of God.
    Ex. 33: 11 Lord spake unto Moses face to face.
    God does not have a "face" the interpretation here is, as humans speak most clearly when they are speaking face to face (would you speak to someone from your backside to each other???) so did God speak to Moses clearly, CLEARER then any man before him and any man after him ever. Like they way humans speak to each other (if you understand telepathy you can understand this even more clearly).
    Ex. 33: 23 thou shalt see my back parts: but my face shall not.
    This verse was in reply to mosses’ question, God said "The man can not see me whilst he is alive" however God showed him his back. God does not have a "back", yet what is to be interpreted by this reply from god is what god did show him and that was a "human capability" of understanding of God, Thus it was not a "Full Godly" (face) understanding which a human can not understand or achieve, but a "Partial Godly" (back) understanding which a human (one like Moses) did have the privilege to "see".
    Num. 12: 8 With him will I speak mouth to mouth.
    As before, God does not have a "mouth" yet the bible speaks in the nature of humans. Also to show the intencity of how close Moses was to God, God said this phrase about Moses and only for Moses, to show their closesness as no man will or ever was that close to God (as no man is closer to a person when speaking to him mouth to mouth)


    Again these verses are very deep and can have a GRAVE mixing and wrong understanding of God, (Y-W-). Yet you must take into effect the facts that I tried to explain earlier.


    To summarize.


    1. The bible speaks in the language (or way) that humans do. (so that we can understand it)
    2. A lock without its key is useless, without the "oral" bible the "written" bible is not ONE. (there fore they were given as ONE)
    3. The word "God, or Lord" in some cases refers to "Angels".

    I hope this helps you to better understand this holy book, which many have misinterpreted.
     
  10. Deut 13:1

    Deut 13:1 Well-Known Member

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    Well, I along with most people don't really hold yours to be a valid interpretation, I was mostly getting the point across that it's a free country and you and Mr. Gottstein can choose to believe which you want.
     
  11. Deut 13:1

    Deut 13:1 Well-Known Member

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    Why beat around the bush? *Do you like the play on words?* :) It's called the Halacha LeMoshe MiSinai which says that there were certain laws that G-d gave Moses at Sinai that were not written down. Basically the Oral law which Jews believe to be equal to the Written, they go hand-in-hand.

    There is also a concept in the Torah called a Kri and a Ktiv, where the Ktiv is the word that is written in the Torah, and the Kri is the word that we say out loud, and they are not always the same thing. It is not a common thing, but there are always there for a reason. Sometimes the Kri will add a word that is not written, and sometimes it just changes the word. This was all explained to Moses while at Sinai, there was a reason he spent 40 days / 40 nights up there and it wasn't so he could receive *just* the 10 commandments which would take like no time at all.
     
  12. Merlin

    Merlin Active Member

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    It is true that we disagree on some interpretations. And I will accept that my wording that the idea of God having a physical body being ridiculous might have been provocative. But, everybody seems to express their own views, surely I must be allowed to express mine. If I think the concept of God having a physical body is plainly ridiculous, do I not have the right to say that? You have the right to tell me I am being ridiculous in thinking that, and no doubt you will. I do not think I'm being intolerant, just descriptive of my views. Or are you intolerant of anyone with alternative views to yourself?

    Fair enough. But where are these images coming from?

    Clearly, nobody actually knows what God looks like. We don't know what He is made of? If He exists, He must be made of something. Is He an energy field? How can we possibly guess these things. But, of all the possible forms that could be taken by a being of the humungeous power that God has demonstrated, a 5'6" body looking like 'Osama bin Ladin' does not seem a reasonable one to choose. Or do you think that is likely?

    Does expressing that view make me intolerant?

    I am not alone. See the response from NetDoc about John
     
  13. jonny

    jonny Well-Known Member

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    [font=&quot]The arrogance of some of the Jews on RF boards is becoming unbearable. If these are the types of debate tactics that you are going to use, I'll just end our discussion now.

    Just a suggestion for the future. Instead of belittling the holy books of one's faith, just say "Since I'm Jewish I can't really comment on the scriptures from the New Testament, but let me give you my opinion on the scriptures from the Old Testament." See how much more effective that would be? It doesn't immediately discredit everything you are saying.

    Thanks for the fun. :banghead3
    [/font]
     
  14. jonny

    jonny Well-Known Member

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    Prove it. Show me one document that proves Mr. Gottstein wrong.

    I'm honestly much more concerned about what Christians believe on the matter, so if you can find one document from 70AD - 500AD that does not "categorically denies that God has body or form" I'll admit that Gottstein was wrong. You should also send a letter to Harvard and let them know what a fool they are publishing.

    The only reason that the concept of God in Judaism is even a question in my opinion is because of the influence that it had on early Christianity. I could really care less about what you believe on the subject today - I'm looking for historical information.
     
  15. Fascist Christ

    Fascist Christ Active Member

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    Slap me if this came up already. I don't feel like reading all 8 pages.

    According to William Blake, A Divine Image is:
    Cruelty, Jealousy, Terror, and Secrecy

    But THE Divine Image is:
    Mercy, Pity, Peace, and Love

    They are all part of the four Zoas that make up God, and likewise Man.

    For Mercy Pity Peace and Love
    Is God, our Father dear
    And Mercy Pity Peace and Love
    Is Man, His child and care

    A Divine Image is who we are since the Fall of Man, and The Divine Image is what we ought to aspire to.

    What do the Christians think of that interpretation?
     
  16. Deut 13:1

    Deut 13:1 Well-Known Member

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    Look up who Rabbi Hillel was and what he did. Just because you choose to ignore the Mishnah and Gemora, doesn't mean I will. And why does the document have to be from 70 AD to 500 AD?

    Also, how is it that you trust the Jews enough to have kept the scripture word for word for over a thousand years pre-christ but you can't trust us when it comes to oral law as well? Kinda hypocritical in my opinion to listen to only half of what Moses said, but as I said, it's a free country, do as you want.
     
  17. Merlin

    Merlin Active Member

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    I agree, but don't restrict your ire to Jews on this site. You will find the majority of people are quite dismissive of other peoples Scriptures and views.
    John 8:7
     
  18. Deut 13:1

    Deut 13:1 Well-Known Member

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    No, the fact of the matter is, both the ORAL law and the WRITTEN law were given to the Jews at Mount Sinai. The Jews were responsible for keeping them for over a thousand years pre-Christ. I find it absolutely amazing you can be so confident that the Written Law is perfect, but the Oral law is made up. I find it completely arrogant of some Christians who call the Oral law "made up", "Irrelevant", ect...

    Well... who do you think you are to pick and choose the scriptures that coincide with your belief with jesus and then toss out the very same ones that Moses taught us? For instance Duet 6:4 tells us to "bind a sign upon our arm" and "Between our eyes", what is tihs sign? I bet you won't find scripture to explain it, but if you go to the Oral law, I bet you'll find a very detailed explanation of what it means.

    That's my opinion. And Jonny, I don't know the person who made the reply, but I do agree w/ what he said, maybe not the way he phrased it. Remember, most jews that speak english, do so as a 2nd, third, or even fourth language. We're not great at finding words to sugar coat everything.

    Anyways, that's my spew on that. When it boils down to it though Jonny, I do enjoy reading your posts since you at least represent your churches view pretty well. I just don't agree with a lot of what you say, but it doesn't change that I enjoy reading what you have to say.
     
  19. NoName

    NoName Member

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    Maybe they were. times infinity! Haha! I won! :biglaugh:
     
  20. jonny

    jonny Well-Known Member

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    I thought I explained the reason for the restriction, but it is because I am not arguing what is currently believed - rather I am arguing what was believed historically. The LDS church believes it is a restoration of truth. The nature of God is one of the most fundamental truths that we believe was restored. Judaism had a major influence on early Christianity since many early Christians were Jewish or came from Jewish areas.

    I can't say that I know what the Mishnah or Germora are, so I'm not ignoring them. I'm just ignorant. Also, I'm not sure that I understand what you mean by Oral law. I'll have to look into that. I've only known one or two Jews in my entire life (they were not that common in Washington), so forgive me if the lingo is new to me. I'm learning. :)
     
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