If the Quran sets the minimum age of marriage at 25

[Starlight]

I believe He does things His own way and who can tell Him He is wrong?

Wow.. you defend sexual child abuse

Most people in the world can tell him he is wrong. Most countries in the world can tell him he is wrong. Commen sense, reason and morality can tell him he is wrong. And also God is against sexual child abuse

 

[firedragon]

The scholars who have that opinion actually have the requirement of fluency in the language. That is scholars vs a random person on the Internet. Awaiting your proof. Just kidding. I know it isn't coming.

Whats the Fusha for female as a gender?
Whats the word for young girl?
Whats the word for a 6 year old?

Tell me please in Fusha atthuraath.

 

[firedragon]

I believe He does things His own way and who can tell Him He is wrong?

Muffled. Honestly, are you having an argument, a thesis, an analysis of any sort, or are you just looking for an opportunity insult another theology and feel good about yourself or/and yours?

 

[Starlight]

Thanks for stopping by. So what is the age limit for marriage in the Bible? 18?

15 years old (when constumate the marriage). In bibical times many got married (constumated the marriage) at that age

 

[Shakeel]

15 years old (when constumate the marriage). In bibical times many got married at that age

Really? Where in the Bible does it say that?

 

[Shakeel]

Whats the Fusha for female as a gender?
Whats the word for young girl?
Whats the word for a 6 year old?

Tell me please in Fusha atthuraath.

There you go again.

This is not about the word for a child alone obviously. The verse is referring to women of all ages, including those on menopause. So why would it say 6-year-old?

 

[firedragon]

There you go again.

This is not about the word for a child alone obviously. The verse is referring to women of all ages, including those on menopause. So why would it say 6-year-old?

Basically you dont know anything. If you do, pls answer. But you won't because YOU HAVE NO CLUE.

Take a holistic approach. Not just one cherry picked verse that suits your personal sentiment. Quran is onne book.


This verse is speaking of women who go through a divorce where it stipulates certain conditions before the lady is to leave the premises where they had their marital life. So please understand that first, you are married because you are already fully grown, mature enough to manage your finances, balaghul nikaha and so forth. You are already married meeting these criteria and now you are going through a divorce.


Chapter 65 verse 4


1. Premise: In case of divorce (To get a divorce, you are already married. To be married, you are already old enough as spelled out earlier)


2. Wa allathi ya ishna minal maheedhi. Those who are done with their menstruation. Which means Ya Ishna, your menstruations are over. This is menopause. For them, at the time of a divorce their interim period is three months.


3. Wa allathi yaa hidhna means the ones who have not menstruated. Now this is the verse a lot of people use to insult the whole system of islam. But it’s a cheap trick. You will understand why.


It does not say “Never menstruated” and in classical Arabic this could never ever mean one who has not achieved puberty. It is completely illogical. As a non-muslim you could use this this maliciously to insult but also as a Muslim you could use this for your perverted intentions. But none of this is logical if you take the context of the Quran and you should see that its illogical.


You are talking of a girl who is already married because she has reached the right ripe age of marriage. Balagul nikaha. Now she is going through a divorce. And now she cannot be thrown out of where she is living for three months. Both, those who don’t get periods and those who have not got their periods yet after the decision is made, whoever they are cannot be sent out of their abode for 3 months AFTER THE DIVORCE IS CONFIRMED.


4. Hamal or pregnant women if you find them to be must be allowed fully to stay in the same premises until the delivery.


This is all about a divorce and pregnancy. These are laws set for all times.

Read the Quran. The word for the gender address to women is Unsaa as in Hamza/alif, noon, saa. The word used in the verse you are using is Annisaakum. Its not general, but specific "women". "Your women". Its noon, seen, waw. Do u see the difference in the jidhirul kalima? Its huge.

When you dont know something, dont make facade claims. Especially dont think insulting others is scholarship of any sort. Humility is essential to learn. First, learn the subject, then if you want puff up in pride. IF YOU WANT.

@epronovost FYI. I am tagging you here just FYI. A young person is referred to as Fathaaya. A childhood aged young girl is called Jaariyah. A specific "young woman" of adult age is called Bikr. Since you were interested. And this is all in Fusha Atthuraath, the Classical Arabic of the Qur'an. There are some differences in the MSA or Modern Standard Arabic. But still, not much. The differences are mainly in something like a Mdduwaajib which is a drag in a recitation of a syllable. For example, classically I will drag a syllable in recitation with a maddhuwaajib for three counts instead of spoken MSA which would be one count. These are the differences. That too, since you spoke of it.

Peace.

 

[danieldemol]

Because you changed it to "full growth" dropping the physical part out of it, then added "prime strength" to it. So I think full growth is just an arbitrary term you came up with which you interpret differently. So that makes a big difference. Especially with people who just want to misinterpret a sentence if they find a loop hole.

No. I googled for full growth and got 25, and googled for full strength and it also coincidentally came up as 25. I did not define full growth as full strength.

]
Thats what you did. So maybe you should answer this question. How did you change the meaning of a word without consulting scholars or even a school child since you dont know the language at all? Or, if you consulted some scholars, who are they and what did they say? Did they say it doesnt mean Physical Growth, but just "growth" in general? And how did they add "prime strength" into it?Please provide your answer to your own question. Thanks.

I doubt Yusuf Ali became one of the widely respected Quran translators without a kindergarten level of Arabic. He translated it as full strength.

 

[firedragon]

I doubt Yusuf Ali became one of the widely respected Quran translators without a kindergarten level of Arabic. He translated it as full strength.

You said "Prime strength". Now you are quoting a translation that says "full strength".

Do you get some pleasure being so dubious?

No. I googled for full growth and got 25, and googled for full strength and it also coincidentally came up as 25. I did not define full growth as full strength.

didnt you say that 25 age was for full brain development? Now you changed it.

I didnt say you defined full growth as full strength. Read what I said again without being so dishonest. I said "full physical growth", not "full growth" which you misquoted, and used it as a loop hole to make it "full growth/PRIME STRENGTH", the associated it with "brain development" and the age of 25, and then you are saying "Quran is making marital age of a woman to be "too old"".

You either want the Quran to practice pedophilia, or say "the Qurans marital age is too old". You want it either too young or too old.

What a shame mate.

 

[epronovost]

You either want the Quran to practice pedophilia, or say "the Qurans marital age is too old". You want it either too young or too old.

What's the approximate (or precise one) minimal age of marriage in the Quran? Is there such a thing?

Also what's your view on child marriage? I personally find the practice appalling, dangerous and cruel. All the small advantages it might have held in the pre-industrial era are now completely gone.

 

[firedragon]

What's the approximate (or precise one) minimal age of marriage in the Quran? Is there such a thing?

There is no exact age said. Is it 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, it is not said.

Also what's your view on child marriage? I personally find the practice appalling, dangerous and cruel. All the small advantages it might have held in the pre-industrial era are now completely gone.

#120

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Thanks for stopping by. So what is the age limit for marriage in the Bible? 18?

I'm unsure of a stated age, but I'm not aware of child marriage being practiced by ancient Jews, and it's certainly never been a Christian practice, outside of fringe sects and cults like fundie polygamous Mormons.

 

[epronovost]

There is no exact age said. Is it 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, it is not said.



#120

I found your post 120 very instructive on what the Quran seem to mention for marriage age which seems to be, at the very least, early adulthood as a rough delimitation for a minimal age of marriage. I suppose I am to believe that your opinion on the matter is basically the same as the Quran.

Why do you think this instruction hasn't been respected until the post-industrial era?

 

[firedragon]

I found your post 120 very instructive on what the Quran seem to mention for marriage age which seems to be, at the very least, early adulthood as a rough delimitation for a minimal age of marriage. I suppose I am to believe that your opinion on the matter is basically the same as the Quran.

Why do you think this instruction hasn't been respected until the post-industrial era?

Its not easy to say "until the post industrial era". No where in the world was marriage having any regulation, and we dont know really when and where it kept going up and down in terms of marital age.

For example, the Quran is a 7th century document. Forget God and religion and all of that, just as a document it is 7th century. And the reports you will see about child marriage which are very very few, and also highly disputed, will come to you from around the 4th or 5th century after the 7th. That is 11th or 12th century. But there are some documentation which are recorded called "golden chains" that are much earlier and have more authenticity which will have "No record of child marriage". Thus, historically it is strange to find the earliest records not having these things, but emerging a few centuries later.

These are well documented findings.

 

[Shakeel]

I'm unsure of a stated age, but I'm not aware of child marriage being practiced by ancient Jews, and it's certainly never been a Christian practice, outside of fringe sects and cults like fundie polygamous Mormons.

you seem very ignorant of both your bible and history.

The minimum age for marriage under Jewish law is 13 for boys, 12 for girls; however, the kiddushin can take place before that, and often did in medieval times
Judaism 101: Marriage

— R. Joseph said: Come and hear! A maiden aged three years and a day may be acquired in marriage by coition, and if her deceased husband's brother cohabits with her, she becomes his.
(...) Raba said: Come and hear! A male aged nine years and a day who cohabits with his deceased brother's wife [the former having left no issue] acquires her [as wife].
Babylonian Talmud: Sanhedrin 55

This link between evangelical Christianity and child marriage actually has been explored recently in the wake of stories of failed Senate candidate Roy Moore’s proclivities. Evangelical communities still push for child marriages between girls in their “middle teens” and men in the mid-twenties or older. According to these groups, younger girls make better spouses because they are blank slates and can be more easily “molded” to serve their future husbands better. What is even more troubling in these communities is that the predominant narrative is that it is the young girl who is pursuing the older man, which means that the pregnant 15-year-old is the one who “sinned” by overcoming the resistance of the adult man who had sex with her.
Banning child marriage in America: An uphill fight against evangelical pressure

Central African Republic (CAR), Mexico, and Namibia—all Christian-majority countries—have very different rates of child marriage: From 68 percent in CAR to 23 percent in Mexico and 8 percent in Namibia. Faith in Girls: How Religious Leaders Can Help End Child Marriage

 

[Shakeel]

So please understand that first, you are married because you are already fully grown, mature enough to manage your finances, balaghul nikaha and so forth.

It says no such thing.

You are already married meeting these criteria

False premise.

To be married, you are already old enough as spelled out earlier)

No set age limit - as spelled out earlier - and the verse doesn't refer to any specific age.
The same false premise again.

It does not say “Never menstruated”

Sure, it says have not menstruated, which can mean one of two things: 1. It means they have not menstruated just now, which would make no sense or 2. They have not menstruated - before, ever - they have never menstruated.

those who have not got their periods yet after the decision is made, whoever they are cannot be sent out of their abode for 3 months AFTER THE DIVORCE IS CONFIRMED.

If that was the case it would have to say who do not menstruate, but it says have not menstruated. And yet, if you read it that way, it would on no way exclude those who have never menstruated.

Read the Quran. The word for the gender address to women is Unsaa as in Hamza/alif, noon, saa. The word used in the verse you are using is Annisaakum. Its not general, but specific "women". "Your women". Its noon, seen, waw. Do u see the difference in the jidhirul kalima? Its huge.

It says women the same way women's restrooms say women. Yet you see little girls enter - with no right, according to your logic. They should find the door that says little girls. But the world has yet to understand this and so there is only one room for all people with the female genitalia and it says women.

A young person is referred to as Fathaaya. A childhood aged young girl is called Jaariyah

But the verse is referring to women in general so there is no need for such words.

 

[Shakeel]

15 years old (when constumate the marriage). In bibical times many got married (constumated the marriage) at that age

It looks like you were wrong.

 

[danieldemol]

You said "Prime strength". Now you are quoting a translation that says "full strength".

I said prime strength and in post #41 I said full strength, and I have used the phrases interchangeably because I do not see any difference in meaning between them. Perhaps you could explain what you think the difference is between the two phrases.

didnt you say that 25 age was for full brain development? Now you changed it.

Nope, if you read post #3 you will find I googled when is a human fully grown out of curiosity and got this;

'Under most laws, young people are recognized as adults at age 18. But emerging science about brain development suggests that most people don't reach full maturity until the age 25.' (for source see post #3). In other words, scientists are including brain development as part of being fully grown.

I didnt say you defined full growth as full strength. Read what I said again without being so dishonest. I said "full physical growth", not "full growth" which you misquoted

I can see you think there is a difference between "full physical growth" and "full growth", would you care to tell us what the difference is? I asked you before but I'm not holding my breath for an answer.

You either want the Quran to practice pedophilia, or say "the Qurans marital age is too old". You want it either too young or too old.

This is not about what I want, I'm just highlighting that words mean what they really mean, so if you are going to retrofit your modern interpretations into the Quran at least do so following the meaning of the words to their logical conclusion.

In my opinion.

 

[stvdv]

I believe He does things His own way

Definitely and fortunately, God never asked me advice nor permission. But if others have proof telling differently, I'd love to hear it

 

[stvdv]

who can tell Him He is wrong?

Nobody.

Quite problematic also to get hold of Him, many RF'ers claim. Not many got His phone number or email address (or fax for the elder ones)