If the Bible is correct, why was Jesus considered special?

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I heard an interesting point raised in a podcast debate that I was listening to. Does anyone feel like responding to it?

Matthew 27:50-54:

50 And Jesus (BE)cried out again with a loud voice, and yielded up His spirit. 51 (BF)And behold, (BG)the [z]veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom; and (BH)the earth shook and the rocks were split. 52 The tombs were opened, and many bodies of the [aa]saints who had (BI)fallen asleep were raised; 53 and coming out of the tombs after His resurrection they entered (BJ)the holy city and appeared to many. 54 (BK)Now the centurion, and those who were with him (BL)keeping guard over Jesus, when they saw (BM)the earthquake and the things that were happening, became very frightened and said, “Truly this was [ab](BN)the Son of God!”

If this actually happened, then why would the Resurrection of Jesus be considered special? If "many bodies of the saints" had risen from the dead and "appeared to many", then why wouldn't Jesus' resurrection be considered part of this overall course of events and not something special in its own right?

 

[The Sum of Awe]

I heard an interesting point raised in a podcast debate that I was listening to. Does anyone feel like responding to it?

Matthew 27:50-54:



If this actually happened, then why would the Resurrection of Jesus be considered special? If "many bodies of the saints" had risen from the dead and "appeared to many", then why wouldn't Jesus' resurrection be considered part of this overall course of events and not something special in its own right?

Because Jesus was claimed as the Son of God, and I guess people were like "well if the Son of God resurrected, he must be special."

 

[lunamoth]

I heard an interesting point raised in a podcast debate that I was listening to. Does anyone feel like responding to it?

Matthew 27:50-54:



If this actually happened, then why would the Resurrection of Jesus be considered special? If "many bodies of the saints" had risen from the dead and "appeared to many", then why wouldn't Jesus' resurrection be considered part of this overall course of events and not something special in its own right?

Jesus was special because he was the incarnation of God. The resurrection is for all of the saints/mankind (depending on how much of a universalist one is).

 

[james2ko]

I heard an interesting point raised in a podcast debate that I was listening to. Does anyone feel like responding to it?

Matthew 27:50-54:

If this actually happened, then why would the Resurrection of Jesus be considered special? If "many bodies of the saints" had risen from the dead and "appeared to many", then why wouldn't Jesus' resurrection be considered part of this overall course of events and not something special in its own right?

Christ's body was resurrected to an immortal state. The "bodies of the saints", most likely believers who recently died, were resurrected back to physical life.

 

[Caladan]

That is a good and authentic point of debate.
the resurrection is a returning theme in the Hebrew scriptures, or rather in Near Eastern literature in general.
the Hebrew prophets resurrecting dead boys in the scriptures. and the descendtion and rebirth of Near Eastern, canaanite and egyptian deities such as Dumuzi, Baal, and Osiris.
These are the words of Ezekiel the prophet when he saw Israelite women lamenting for Dumuzi at the Temple of Jerusalem:

"Then he brought me to the door of the gate of the Lord's house which was toward the north; and, behold, there sat women weeping for Tammuz. Then said he unto to me, 'Hast thou seen this, O son of man? turn thee yet again, and thou shalt see greater abominations than these."

Ezekiel 8 14-15

From this very passage you can understand the problem of later men to treat the belief of another sect in the resurrection of a jesus of nazareth with disregard.
men in the middle east and the mediterranean have been accostumed to see imperators being raised to the status of gods, and deities descending and returning from the underworld. so, therefore you are right, many or rather most men did not see the belief in the resurrection of jesus of nazareth as exceptional.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

Christ's body was resurrected to an immortal state. The "bodies of the saints", most likely believers who recently died, were resurrected back to physical life.

Do you really think that there's a clear distinction like that in Scripture?

 

[TalAbrams]

Penguin,
Excellent point!
It is one of the most important questions I have ever heard asked about the x-tian writings.
I have studied anti-missionary material for years and missed the significance of this.
The ramifications of this are more far reaching than most will see or acknowledge.
I suspect that most will just gloss over it.
When I imagine something of this magnitude happening today I can easily see the resurrection of one man paling in comparison to the many who rose from the dead and walked the streets.
No one would have forgotten something like this and the news would have traveled across the known world.
Yet where are the writings of this monumental miracle? I love it.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Because Jesus was claimed as the Son of God, and I guess people were like "well if the Son of God resurrected, he must be special."

But that's the thing - why would people jump to this?

Multitudes of people were resurrected and they decided that this meant that one and only one of those resurrected was special in a way that the others were not?

It doesn't make intuitive sense to me. Generally, when I see similar effects happening simultaneously, I infer a common cause for all of them. I wouldn't jump to the conclusion that they have different causes.

Jesus was special because he was the incarnation of God. The resurrection is for all of the saints/mankind (depending on how much of a universalist one is).

Sorry - I wasn't trying to ask whether Jesus is special... I realize that he's presented as very special in the New Testament.

I was thinking in the context of the observers at this point in the story... particularly the soldiers the passage describes as eyewitnesses. I'm just not sure of the thought process that, when confronted with many dead people risen from the grave, I would think to myself "this one resurrected person is special in a way that all those other resurrected people are not."

Penguin,
Excellent point!
It is one of the most important questions I have ever heard asked about the x-tian writings.
I have studied anti-missionary material for years and missed the significance of this.
The ramifications of this are more far reaching than most will see or acknowledge.
I suspect that most will just gloss over it.
When I imagine something of this magnitude happening today I can easily see the resurrection of one man paling in comparison to the many who rose from the dead and walked the streets.
No one would have forgotten something like this and the news would have traveled across the known world.
Yet where are the writings of this monumental miracle? I love it.

I agree that this is a problem as well, but I wasn't trying to focus on it for this thread.

Sure, it does sound strange that nobody apart from the author of Matthew happened to notice that large numbers of dead people had risen from the grave and were walking around Jerualem talking to people, but what I'm trying to get at here is how the thought process would work that says "many dead people are wandering the Earth, therefore Jesus is special." I just don't see how this makes sense as an inference unless one knew the end of the story, which none of the observers would have if it was a real event.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

But that's the thing - why would people jump to this?

Multitudes of people were resurrected and they decided that this meant that one and only one of those resurrected was special in a way that the others were not?

It doesn't make intuitive sense to me. Generally, when I see similar effects happening simultaneously, I infer a common cause for all of them. I wouldn't jump to the conclusion that they have different causes.


Sorry - I wasn't trying to ask whether Jesus is special... I realize that he's presented as very special in the New Testament.

I was thinking in the context of the observers at this point in the story... particularly the soldiers the passage describes as eyewitnesses. I'm just not sure of the thought process that, when confronted with many dead people risen from the grave, I would think to myself "this one resurrected person is special in a way that all those other resurrected people are not."


I agree that this is a problem as well, but I wasn't trying to focus on it for this thread.

Sure, it does sound strange that nobody apart from the author of Matthew happened to notice that large numbers of dead people had risen from the grave and were walking around Jerualem talking to people, but what I'm trying to get at here is how the thought process would work that says "many dead people are wandering the Earth, therefore Jesus is special." I just don't see how this makes sense as an inference unless one knew the end of the story, which none of the observers would have if it was a real event.

I've thought of it as the power of Jesus's Resurrection. So the process is "because of Jesus's Resurrection, other saints were raised from the dead as well."

 

[doppelganger]

Perhaps even more problematic from a "why was Jesus special" standpoint, is this passage from John 10:

The Jews picked up stones again to stone Him. 32 Jesus answered them, “I showed you many good works from the Father; for which of them are you stoning Me?” 33 The Jews answered Him, “For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy; and because You, being a man, make Yourself out to be God.” 34 Jesus answered them, “Has it not been written in your Law, I SAID, YOU ARE GODS’? 35 If he called them gods, to whom the word of God came (and the Scripture cannot be broken), 36 do you say of Him, whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, ‘You are blaspheming,’ because I said, I am the Son of God’? 37 If I do not do the works of My Father, do not believe Me; 38 but if I do them, though you do not believe Me, believe the works, so that you may know and understand that the Father is in Me, and I in the Father.” 39 Therefore they were seeking again to seize Him, and He eluded their grasp.

Jesus is quoting a line (badly out of context, BTW) from Psalm 82, but misquotation aside, his point to his accusers was that everyone to whom the "word of God" has come is "God" or "a God". His point is rather obviously that anyone who has the word of God has "the Father within and is in the Father."This is, unsurprisingly given that this occurs in "John", quite in accord with mysticism across cultures.

 

[fallingblood]

I think it is a throw back more to Jewish beliefs. The idea was that there would be a general resurrection in which the previous dead would be resurrected. When Paul speaks of the idea of resurrection, it is in this context (within the idea of the Kingdom of God). From Paul, we can get the idea that it would be a spiritual resurrection, and not necessarily a physical resurrection (either way, the body would be transformed to a point).

So for Paul, Jesus was special partially because he ushered in this time period in which the general resurrection would occur. Jesus is not special simply because he was resurrected, but because he was the first fruits of the resurrection: he signaled the beginning of the general resurrection.

I would argue that the author of Matthew still had this general idea in mind. That Jesus was not meant to be the only one who would be resurrected. He just issued in the general resurrection. It was his death and resurrection that defeated the power of death, and would allow others to reap those rewards (the resurrection).

 

[james2ko]

Do you really think that there's a clear distinction like that in Scripture?

Absolutely! I don't think just any mere physical human can have a finger put through their hand; suddenly appear in a room from thin air or float off into the sky and disappear in the clouds. Unless of course you're an "Angellous Evangellous"

 

[Pegg]

I heard an interesting point raised in a podcast debate that I was listening to. Does anyone feel like responding to it?

Matthew 27:50-54:



If this actually happened, then why would the Resurrection of Jesus be considered special? If "many bodies of the saints" had risen from the dead and "appeared to many", then why wouldn't Jesus' resurrection be considered part of this overall course of events and not something special in its own right?

Jesus resurrection was in the form of an immortal spirit, whereas the people mentioned in the account were resurrected in physical bodies and later died again. So Jesus was special because he was the first raised to spirit life, and he was the last to receive immortal life directly by Gods hand.

 

[fallingblood]

Jesus resurrection was in the form of an immortal spirit, whereas the people mentioned in the account were resurrected in physical bodies and later died again. So Jesus was special because he was the first raised to spirit life, and he was the last to receive immortal life directly by Gods hand.

Except the Bible never says that.

 

[waitasec]

Christ's body was resurrected to an immortal state. The "bodies of the saints", most likely believers who recently died, were resurrected back to physical life.

i wonder why an event like this wasn't documented anywhere other than the gospels...

 

[Pegg]

Except the Bible never says that.

many verses tell us that Christ was resurrected in spirit form.

1Cor 15:35 Nevertheless, someone will say: “How are the dead to be raised up? Yes, with what sort of body are they coming?”...38 but God gives it a body just as it has pleased him,...40 And there are heavenly bodies, and earthly bodies; but the glory of the heavenly bodies is one sort, and that of the earthly bodies is a different sort....42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption, it is raised up in incorruption. 43 It is sown in dishonor, it is raised up in glory. It is sown in weakness, it is raised up in power. 44 It is sown a physical body, it is raised up a spiritual body.

1Peter 3:18 Why, even Christ died once for all time concerning sins, a righteous [person] for unrighteous ones, that he might lead YOU to God, he being put to death in the flesh, but being made alive in the spirit

1Timothy 3:16 Indeed, the sacred secret of this godly devotion is admittedly great: ‘He was made manifest in flesh, was declared righteous in spirit, appeared to angels, was preached about among nations, was believed upon in [the] world, was received up in glory.

 

[james2ko]

i wonder why an event like this wasn't documented anywhere other than the gospels...

Why would a non-Christian source have a compelling desire to report such an event so favorable to Christianity?

 

[McBell]

Why would a non-Christian source have a compelling desire to report such an event so favorable to Christianity?

Because it is something that doe snot happen outside of religious beliefs and myth.

 

[james2ko]

Because it is something that doe snot happen outside of religious beliefs and myth.

And that's precisely what the skeptics perceived back then, making the event inconsequential to record. Thanks for the clarification.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

many verses tell us that Christ was resurrected in spirit form.

But many verses also state that Christ in his "spirit form" was mistaken for a real, physical person. So again... why would the witnesses to all this, who presumably wouldn't have the explanation of the Bible to help them, assume that Jesus was materially different from all the other people who had risen from the grave?

Why would a non-Christian source have a compelling desire to report such an event so favorable to Christianity?

So they could co-opt it, for one thing: "Marvel at the might of Jupiter, who raised the dead from the grave in Jerusalem!" I'm sure that anyone who wanted to could figure out some way to incorporate this sort of event into their religious beliefs.

Or... and this might be a stretch... some people - even non-Christians - simply want to make an honest picture of the world, and want to faithfully record things that happen, whether they're easily reconciled with their theology or not.