if one is to love their enemy, why can't god?

[waitasec]

this thought occurred to me as i was posting in this thread
http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/general-religious-debates/129034-ot-nt-god.html

in the OT the tribe of israel were to treat gods enemies as their own
16 The LORD said to Moses, 17 “Treat the Midianites as enemies and kill them.

and in the NT the enemy of god is the unbeliever...

romans 8:7 The mind governed by the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so. 8 Those who are in the realm of the flesh cannot please God.

so in light of jesus dying on the cross, or in light that the tribe of israel going to war with gods enemies...why did god not lead by example?

any thoughts, complaints or compliments?

 

[godlikemadman]

I guess you could take the Gnostic approach and say that the OT God and the NT God are two separate entities...

But I don't believe in either so I guess my input is kind of biased. I'd say this is just Christians trying to distinguish themselves from the Jews back in Roman times to escape the persecution which the Jews faced. Also to gain more appeal with the Gentile masses with a message of love rather than fire and brimstone.

 

[Green Kepi]

[FONT=arial, geneva]When God speaks about "loving our neighbors" we mustn't be confused about what kind of love we're being commanded to exercise. There are several kinds of love. There is eros, or erotic love, or philia, the love of friendship. [/FONT]


[FONT=arial, geneva]When God says to love our enemies He's not talking about either of these sorts of love. What Jesus urges us to do is exercise "agape" love, which is goodwill for the future of their souls.[/FONT]


[FONT=arial, geneva]At this level, we love others not because we like them, nor because their way appeals to us... we love them because God loves. But...sin makes them His enemy and they stay that way unless Christ's blood cleanses them. [/FONT]


[FONT=arial, geneva]I will never "like" people who molest little children or hypocrites. Their ways do not appeal to me. [/FONT]


[FONT=arial, geneva]I cannot muster philia love for them, and forget the thought of eros love! God knows those two feelings of love are impossible for me to even begin to think about when these type people are mentioned. [/FONT]


[FONT=arial, geneva]What Jesus calls each of us to do, however, is to exercise that "agape" love ... that feeling of goodwill toward these people. We don't have to "like" our enemies, but we do have to stop wishing for evil things to happen to them. [/FONT]


[FONT=arial, geneva]God does not wish bad things for these people, and neither should we. Our love for them should be redemptive, understanding and praying their souls are saved! Only then can our enemies be transformed into people whom we can love! [/FONT]

 

[1137]

this thought occurred to me as i was posting in this thread
http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/general-religious-debates/129034-ot-nt-god.html

in the OT the tribe of israel were to treat gods enemies as their own
16 The LORD said to Moses, 17 “Treat the Midianites as enemies and kill them.

and in the NT the enemy of god is the unbeliever...

romans 8:7 The mind governed by the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so. 8 Those who are in the realm of the flesh cannot please God.

so in light of jesus dying on the cross, or in light that the tribe of israel going to war with gods enemies...why did god not lead by example?

any thoughts, complaints or compliments?

The OT and NT gods are not the same god. The enemies of god's people are god's enemies. This includes imposter gods and their massive amounts of followers

 

[Storm]

[FONT=arial, geneva]When God speaks about "loving our neighbors" we mustn't be confused about what kind of love we're being commanded to exercise. There are several kinds of love. There is eros, or erotic love, or philia, the love of friendship. [/FONT]


[FONT=arial, geneva]When God says to love our enemies He's not talking about either of these sorts of love. What Jesus urges us to do is exercise "agape" love, which is goodwill for the future of their souls.[/FONT]


[FONT=arial, geneva]At this level, we love others not because we like them, nor because their way appeals to us... we love them because God loves. But...sin makes them His enemy and they stay that way unless Christ's blood cleanses them. [/FONT]


[FONT=arial, geneva]I will never "like" people who molest little children or hypocrites. Their ways do not appeal to me. [/FONT]


[FONT=arial, geneva]I cannot muster philia love for them, and forget the thought of eros love! God knows those two feelings of love are impossible for me to even begin to think about when these type people are mentioned. [/FONT]


[FONT=arial, geneva]What Jesus calls each of us to do, however, is to exercise that "agape" love ... that feeling of goodwill toward these people. We don't have to "like" our enemies, but we do have to stop wishing for evil things to happen to them. [/FONT]


[FONT=arial, geneva]God does not wish bad things for these people, and neither should we. Our love for them should be redemptive, understanding and praying their souls are saved! Only then can our enemies be transformed into people whom we can love! [/FONT]

Did you even read the title?

 

[dawny0826]

this thought occurred to me as i was posting in this thread
http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/general-religious-debates/129034-ot-nt-god.html

in the OT the tribe of israel were to treat gods enemies as their own
16 The LORD said to Moses, 17 “Treat the Midianites as enemies and kill them.

and in the NT the enemy of god is the unbeliever...

romans 8:7 The mind governed by the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so. 8 Those who are in the realm of the flesh cannot please God.

so in light of jesus dying on the cross, or in light that the tribe of israel going to war with gods enemies...why did god not lead by example?

any thoughts, complaints or compliments?

The Bible states in 1 Peter 3:18 that Christ, in death visited the spirits of those who died during the time of Noah. And Christ preached to them and only EIGHT souls were saved through water.

So, those that were eradicated as God's enemies were genuinely God's enemies, according to the bible. Against God. However, Christ made salvation possible.

The realm of flesh is that which is of this world. Those living for God typically live by that which is of the spiritual.

 

[punkdbass]

All throughout the "OT" we are taught to resist evil.

First of all, I think you need to properly define the word enemy for the context of your question. If one's enemy is truly EVIL, then the Torah does not command us to love them, rather we should resist evil(and just how we should do this isn't some black and white answer I can give you, obviously it differs by scenario)

Now if by enemy you mean my everyday rivals, or perhaps some of those people I don't like as much as should have, but aren't considered evil by anymeans.. then yes I think the Torah commands us to love them, and obviously God would too.

So now that I got that out of the way, I think God hates evil, but then again, it is not His desire that the wicked should die, rather He desires that they should turn back from their wicked ways and live - Ezekiel 33:11. And if said evil person truly repents and turns back from their evil ways then God would love them and I would be commanded to love them as well.

 

[Renji]

All throughout the "OT" we are taught to resist evil.

First of all, I think you need to properly define the word enemy for the context of your question. If one's enemy is truly EVIL, then the Torah does not command us to love them, rather we should resist evil(and just how we should do this isn't some black and white answer I can give you, obviously it differs by scenario)

Now if by enemy you mean my everyday rivals, or perhaps some of those people I don't like as much as should have, but aren't considered evil by anymeans.. then yes I think the Torah commands us to love them, and obviously God would too.

So now that I got that out of the way, I think God hates evil, but then again, it is not His desire that the wicked should die, rather He desires that they should turn back from their wicked ways and live - Ezekiel 33:11. And if said evil person truly repents and turns back from their evil ways then God would love them and I would be commanded to love them as well.

Interesting.

I'm following this thread.

 

[Me Myself]

I expect God to be better than me. If a God is not at least as moral as I am I simply wont be praying to him for morality.

Shiva forgives everyone. Now that´s my kind of God.

 

[Green Kepi]

Did you even read the title?

Uh...yeah...did you not read into what I wrote...?

 

[Storm]

Uh...yeah...did you not read into what I wrote...?

I read what you wrote, and it didn't address the topic at all.

 

[godlikemadman]

 

[dawny0826]

I read what you wrote, and it didn't address the topic at all.

I doubt I did either.

There's that characteristic of the Abrahamic God that people tend to strongly dislike and believers struggle to explain. It's not that God didn't love His Children. God loved His creation very much, enemies and all. He hates sin. That which is sinful isn't of God. That which is sinful can't be reconciled to Him without repentence.

Part of that parent/child dynamic between God and the Israelites...was the struggle with obedience. God showed Himself to His creation in such miraculous ways, and yet His creation still disobeyed and He was so angry, He destroyed it all, saving only the most righteous.

He was so disgusted with Himself, He promised He wouldn't do it again and saved the souls of those that perished in a spiritual prison, providing them the opportunity in the afterlife to repent and come to Christ. This is an example of God loving His enemies. Out of those that perished...and this would be the world's population...eight chose Christ, according to the Bible.

You either buy it or you don't. An enemy of God would be one or many who are genuinely against God.

It's not an issue of God not giving a rat's rear about His enemies because He made a path for salvation and commissioned those that do love Him to share His love with others.

That's just my understanding.

 

[Me Myself]

The problem is that he created his "enemies" full well knowing they would end up in hell of eternal torture... because he "loves" them?

 

[dawny0826]

The problem is that he created his "enemies" full well knowing they would end up in hell of eternal torture... because he "loves" them?

Free will. He may know what you're going to do, but it's still your choice to make. The story unfolds as you make choices and move along.

I believe that God loves us. In the NT, we're instructed to love and when we love, we fulfill the law to the fullest. An enemy of God would be one who is void of love, one who doesn't want to be reconciled with God, one who wouldn't be surprised if they wound up elsewhere in the afterlife.

 

[Me Myself]

Free will. He may know what you're going to do, but it's still your choice to make. The story unfolds as you make choices and move along.

So what? It may be may will, but he created me knowing were I will direct it, so he is at least as responsable for everything that I do as I am.

If you know that a murderer will kill all the family of your neighbour if you set him out of his cage right now and you hold the key, do you set him out? Are you responsable for the outcome you were 100% certain (lets remember no human can be 100% certain, so this would be the highest certainty you´ve had in yourl ife) that this murderer will kill this family.

Do you unleash the murderer? Are you not at least AS responsable for the dead of the family at the same time that the murderer has not ceased to be entirely responsable to?

Eternal punishment is the ultimate crime. Specially when you are at least equally at fault.

 

[waitasec]

[FONT=arial, geneva]When God speaks about "loving our neighbors" we mustn't be confused about what kind of love we're being commanded to exercise. There are several kinds of love. There is eros, or erotic love, or philia, the love of friendship. [/FONT]


[FONT=arial, geneva]When God says to love our enemies He's not talking about either of these sorts of love. What Jesus urges us to do is exercise "agape" love, which is goodwill for the future of their souls.[/FONT]


[FONT=arial, geneva]At this level, we love others not because we like them, nor because their way appeals to us... we love them because God loves. But...sin makes them His enemy and they stay that way unless Christ's blood cleanses them. [/FONT]


[FONT=arial, geneva]I will never "like" people who molest little children or hypocrites. Their ways do not appeal to me. [/FONT]


[FONT=arial, geneva]I cannot muster philia love for them, and forget the thought of eros love! God knows those two feelings of love are impossible for me to even begin to think about when these type people are mentioned. [/FONT]


[FONT=arial, geneva]What Jesus calls each of us to do, however, is to exercise that "agape" love ... that feeling of goodwill toward these people. We don't have to "like" our enemies, but we do have to stop wishing for evil things to happen to them. [/FONT]


[FONT=arial, geneva]God does not wish bad things for these people, and neither should we. Our love for them should be redemptive, understanding and praying their souls are saved! Only then can our enemies be transformed into people whom we can love! [/FONT]

since unbelievers are gods enemy, why does he not love them unconditionally and turn the other cheek? why is gods love contingent on belief...
please re read my OP...

 

[waitasec]

The Bible states in 1 Peter 3:18 that Christ, in death visited the spirits of those who died during the time of Noah. And Christ preached to them and only EIGHT souls were saved through water.

So, those that were eradicated as God's enemies were genuinely God's enemies, according to the bible. Against God. However, Christ made salvation possible.

The realm of flesh is that which is of this world. Those living for God typically live by that which is of the spiritual.

what about turning the other cheek as he himself says one should do?

luke 6
27 “But to you who are listening I say: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, 28 bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you. 29 If someone slaps you on one cheek, turn to them the other also. If someone takes your coat, do not withhold your shirt from them. 30 Give to everyone who asks you, and if anyone takes what belongs to you, do not demand it back. 31 Do to others as you would have them do to you.
32 “If you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? Even sinners love those who love them. 33 And if you do good to those who are good to you, what credit is that to you? Even sinners do that.

what credit is it to god if he is only good to those that are good to him?

 

[waitasec]

All throughout the "OT" we are taught to resist evil.

First of all, I think you need to properly define the word enemy for the context of your question. If one's enemy is truly EVIL, then the Torah does not command us to love them, rather we should resist evil(and just how we should do this isn't some black and white answer I can give you, obviously it differs by scenario)

evil is subjective.

Now if by enemy you mean my everyday rivals, or perhaps some of those people I don't like as much as should have, but aren't considered evil by anymeans.. then yes I think the Torah commands us to love them, and obviously God would too.

only if they are in the same fraternity, so to speak, as you...

So now that I got that out of the way, I think God hates evil, but then again, it is not His desire that the wicked should die, rather He desires that they should turn back from their wicked ways and live - Ezekiel 33:11. And if said evil person truly repents and turns back from their evil ways then God would love them and I would be commanded to love them as well.

god hates subjective evil?

 

[dawny0826]

So what? It may be may will, but he created me knowing were I will direct it, so he is at least as responsable for everything that I do as I am.

If you know that a murderer will kill all the family of your neighbour if you set him out of his cage right now and you hold the key, do you set him out? Are you responsable for the outcome you were 100% certain (lets remember no human can be 100% certain, so this would be the highest certainty you´ve had in yourl ife) that this murderer will kill this family.

Do you unleash the murderer? Are you not at least AS responsable for the dead of the family at the same time that the murderer has not ceased to be entirely responsable to?

Eternal punishment is the ultimate crime. Specially when you are at least equally at fault.

God knows my life path, but it's my life to live. God took responsibility for all of my sin. But, while here on this planet, I'm obliged to live in love, live well and seek forgiveness when I mess up. I'm inclined naturally to do that anyway - unload that which is heavy on my spirit. If I'm taken, I want to be free of baggage. Christ claimed it on the cross anyway. That was the whole point, so that I don't have to live with it.