If Jesus was God, explain this verse...

[Muffled]

Hi Muffled, I would hope I am not in error. Those who propose that "Jesus" held onto his divinity, as he sojourned in the flesh, basically have to consign him to being a schizophrenic, or have multiple personality disorder.

There are very difficult Scriptures to explain for those who propose that he was both fully human AND fully "God." Here are several of them:

1. Elohim cannot be tempted (James 1:13, Matt 4:1) so is the explanation that ONLY his human side was tempted??, again schizophrenic??.

2. It states that he INCREASED in wisdom (Luke 2:52), so again, was it only his human side that grew in wisdom?? or did he just have a problem in communicating with himself?

3. How is it that the Son of Man can be blasphemed and forgiveness given, but if the Spirit is blasphemed, there will never be forgiveness (Mat 12:31-32)? Is it that those who blaspheme the Son of Man are only blaspheming his human side and not his divine side??

4. In Acts 2:22-24, why did Peter call him a "man," and not Elohim, and why did Peter say that Elohim RAISED him from the dead, instead of saying that he raised himself??

5. How is it that those who BELIEVE in Yeshua will do GREATER works than He did (John 14:12)? Is it because those who believe in Yeshua are also both fully man and Elohim?

6. How is it that His Disciples will be ONE with the Father as He is ONE with the Father (John 17:21-23)?? Were they also "God" in the flesh?

Muffled, the error is caused by not believing the Scriptures. The Scriptures state that Yeshua EMPTIED Himself to become a man (Phil 2), and I believe the Scriptures...do you? KB

I believe there is a misunderstanding of schizophrenia. Schiizophenia occurs when another spirit contends with the resident spirit for control over the person's mind. It is not schizophrenia for the spirit to contend with the mind of the body but it is the natural state of any soul. BTW it is no contest because God is all powerful and that means over the mind of the body as well.

I believe obviously it it the mind of the body that increases in wisdom. God already is the embodiment of wisdom.

I believe that is the case.

I believe He was speaking in a way his audience could understand and not stating things as they are. In other words he was being discreet.

I don't believe the fully applies in either case. I believe it is an apparent doing because it is always God weilding the power.

I believe so.

I believe I inspired the scriptues but so many misinterpret them. I believe the scriptures do not say what one wants them to say.

 

[Muffled]

rev 3:12--- Elohim may appear in Jewish translations but in greek translations--God( Theos) is the correct usage-- greek to English= God--a title--elohim = a title. not a name. YHWH(Jehovah) is Gods personal name. Jesus is not YHWH(Jehovah). At rev 3:12--Jesus was stressing 4 times in a single paragraph --that he Jesus has a God= his Father=YHWH(Jehovah)-John 20:17--- but that takes believing Jesus' truths over mens dogma. God does not have a God.

I believe this is in error. God is His God. I don't believe there is ever any evidence to support your view.

I believe this name is the memorial name but not the only name and Jesus is AHYH which is another of the names of God. As for personal do you mean that it is a name He gave Himself, but that is also true of AHYH.

 

[Muffled]

Hi kjw47, I'm sorry, but those Scriptures do not state that YHWH is or was the Father. KB

I agree. However I believe logic will avail us on this matter.

1. Jesus says "I and the Father ae one."

2. Jesus says "before Abraham, I am (AHYH)."

3. God uses both the names of AHYH and JHVH in Ex 3:14, 15.

Therefore the Father and Jesus are Jehovah.

 

[kjw47]

I agree. However I believe logic will avail us on this matter.

1. Jesus says "I and the Father ae one."

2. Jesus says "before Abraham, I am (AHYH)."

3. God uses both the names of AHYH and JHVH in Ex 3:14, 15.

Therefore the Father and Jesus are Jehovah.

Fact--The Father was in heaven while Jesus was on earth--its impossible for Jesus to be Jehovah.
They are one in purpose , Jesus also taught-- the Father is greater than I.

Only Jehovah was being spoken about in Exodus 3

The Pharisees asked Jesus if he lived before Abraham, Jesus answered that question--he was not saying he was the I am--that is twisting what Jesus said.

 

[Ken Brown]

I agree. However I believe logic will avail us on this matter.

1. Jesus says "I and the Father ae one."

2. Jesus says "before Abraham, I am (AHYH)."

3. God uses both the names of AHYH and JHVH in Ex 3:14, 15.

Therefore the Father and Jesus are Jehovah.

Hi Muffled, this is not an easy subject, and many centuries of debate and even the slaughter of opposing factions have engulfed this issue.

Yeshua prayed that His Disciples were "one" with Him AS He is "one" with the Father (John 17:11, 21-22), so using your logic, does that mean His Disciples were also Jehovah?

Yeshua was Yahweh/Jehovah, but He emptied Himself and took on the form of man (Phil 2), so logic tells us that Yeshua was BEFORE Abraham as YHWH, but Yeshua was NOT the Father, and the Father was not Yahweh/Yeshua.

Exo 3:14 describes Yahweh (I AM THAT I AM), and verse 15 tells us the NAME is Yahweh/Jehovah, as the name Yahweh comes from that Hebrew word (H1961) "I AM THAT I AM." Logic tell us that it is not TWO separate names, but ONE.

No, the Father is greater than Yahweh/Yeshua. Take the example of our physical sun. The sun sends it's light to this world to give the world life through that light (photosynthesis), and the light of the sun is ONE with the sun, and when you see the light of the sun, it is like seeing the sun, but the sun is greater than the light, just as the Father is greater than Yeshua/Yahweh. Does this make any sense to you? KB

 

[Ken Brown]

Fact--The Father was in heaven while Jesus was on earth--its impossible for Jesus to be Jehovah.
They are one in purpose , Jesus also taught-- the Father is greater than I.

Only Jehovah was being spoken about in Exodus 3

The Pharisees asked Jesus if he lived before Abraham, Jesus answered that question--he was not saying he was the I am--that is twisting what Jesus said.

Hi kjw47, I thought I might ask you a question or two. Why did the Jews take up stones to cast at Him after He said, "Before Abraham was, I AM?" (Please consider John 10:33 in your answer.) Also consider that when Yeshua was asked about WHO He was, He stated "I AM," and that was blasphemy to the high priest and he rent his clothes. Why would the high priest rend his clothes when he is commanded not to do that (Lev 10:6, 21:10)? And finally, when Yeshua told those who came to arrest Him, "I AM," why did they did they go backwards, and fall to the ground (John 18:6)?

Wouldn't you say that when Yeshua said, "I AM," on these occasions, that He was invoking the Sacred Name of Yahweh? KB

 

[Walkntune]

Matthew 4:1 Then was Jesus led up of the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil.

If Jesus was God, why was he tempted by the Devil? Can God be tempted by the Devil, his own creation?

Granted, he passed the test. But if he was God... Why was there a test in the first place? Does God need to test himself?

Are God and Jesus really one in the same? Please answer logically how this is possible given the verse above.

Jesus represents the flesh of God just as we are tempted by our flesh. Is our flesh still a part of who we are making up one body with our mind and spirit?
How can a man be mind, body, and spirit. How can all three be of the same body?

 

[garrydons]

Shalom. Jesus (or more correctly Yeshua) is God made flesh (John 1:1 then John 1:14). When He was made flesh, He was truly human that is why He was tempted. There is nothing impossible with God. He can take any form He want to.

 

[kjw47]

Hi kjw47, I thought I might ask you a question or two. Why did the Jews take up stones to cast at Him after He said, "Before Abraham was, I AM?" (Please consider John 10:33 in your answer.) Also consider that when Yeshua was asked about WHO He was, He stated "I AM," and that was blasphemy to the high priest and he rent his clothes. Why would the high priest rend his clothes when he is commanded not to do that (Lev 10:6, 21:10)? And finally, when Yeshua told those who came to arrest Him, "I AM," why did they did they go backwards, and fall to the ground (John 18:6)?

Wouldn't you say that when Yeshua said, "I AM," on these occasions, that He was invoking the Sacred Name of Yahweh? KB

I am-- is not a name-- YHWH(Jehovah) is Gods personal name.
The Pharisees didn't believe Jesus was the messiah--they were wrong--they were wrong on many things they did concerning Jesus.

 

[Shermana]

Shalom. Jesus (or more correctly Yeshua) is God made flesh (John 1:1 then John 1:14). When He was made flesh, He was truly human that is why He was tempted. There is nothing impossible with God. He can take any form He want to.

No, he is "a god" (i.e. a "Divine being", "An elohim") made flesh. God can do whatever he wants, but in this case he simply didn't do it. He sent His Logos instead.

 

[Shermana]

Hi kjw47, I thought I might ask you a question or two. Why did the Jews take up stones to cast at Him after He said, "Before Abraham was, I AM?" (Please consider John 10:33 in your answer.) Also consider that when Yeshua was asked about WHO He was, He stated "I AM," and that was blasphemy to the high priest and he rent his clothes. Why would the high priest rend his clothes when he is commanded not to do that (Lev 10:6, 21:10)? And finally, when Yeshua told those who came to arrest Him, "I AM," why did they did they go backwards, and fall to the ground (John 18:6)?

Wouldn't you say that when Yeshua said, "I AM," on these occasions, that He was invoking the Sacred Name of Yahweh? KB

John 10:33 should read "You make yourself to be A god", in the indefinite. This explains his answer in John 10:34, which otherwise is a dishonest changing of the subject in the Traditional Trinitarian mangling which denies the Anarthrous use of Theon.

Also, the name is not really "I am", it is "I shall be". And it is presented as a name, not a statement of declaration. Jesus would have to say "I am I am" in order to say this. And with that said, the formerly blind beggar in John 9:9 says "Ego Eimi" as well, yet no one threatened to stone him for it. Most translations add a "he" (or put it in parenthesis) but that's an embellishment.

Look at the actual context of Chapter 8, Jesus is simply declaring that he has existed since before Abraham. This is why the Jews go to stone him, because he's declaring to thus be A divine being, not THE divine being. Hence why they say "A god" in 10:33 (despite the trinitarian manglings to "God").

Jesus also says "Ego Eimi" in Matthew 14:27 to simply say "Hey it's me".

Likewise, the "he" is added in many of these translations when the Soldiers go backwards. They are simply shocked to finally meet this miracle worker. I find it interesting that so many of the translations that want to harp on the "I am" concept deliberately add the "he" to John 18:6, you'd think they wouldn't pass that one up.

I also find it extremely interesting that NONE of these commentators seem to get a Trinitarian/Modalist interpretation from that verse, how very odd.

http://biblehub.com/commentaries/john/18-6.htm

 

[s2a]

Matthew 4:1 Then was Jesus led up of the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil.

If Jesus was God, why was he tempted by the Devil? Can God be tempted by the Devil, his own creation?

Granted, he passed the test. But if he was God... Why was there a test in the first place? Does God need to test himself?

Are God and Jesus really one in the same? Please answer logically how this is possible given the verse above.

You chide the audience as if "logic" was ever a measure of (religious) "faith".

C'mon.

Religion is, by very definition, a willing suspension of disbelief of any presented facts, as to otherwise accept a notion of personalized choice of what to accept as a philosophical "truth" (ie. god [or gods] exist!).

I'm willing to speculate that you made Santa's "naughty" list this year...but likely that Jesus has absolved you of that sin

 

[Shermana]

You chide the audience as if "logic" was ever a measure of (religious) "faith".

C'mon.

Religion is, by very definition, a willing suspension of disbelief of any presented facts, as to otherwise accept a notion of personalized choice of what to accept as a philosophical "truth" (ie. god [or gods] exist!).

I'm willing to speculate that you made Santa's "naughty" list this year...but likely that Jesus has absolved you of that sin

This is the Scriptural debates page, we are discussing whether particular doctrines, interpretations and renderings are logical, not the reality of the system itself.

As an Atheist you should be very much interested in joining the crusade to defeat the Trinity for obvious reasons, seeing as the Trinity is the backbone of 99% of Christianity's Christology.

If you believe that "faith" is not logical, you are welcome to such positions but I'd suggest you focus more on the "General religious debate" pages and not the debates on the particulars of those religions.

 

[oldbadger]

Matthew 4:1 Then was Jesus led up of the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil.

Hello, Aamer....
I'm a late arrival because I've only just finished studying this part of the record.
1. Jesus was not led.......... into the wilderness. John baprised Jesus 'in the wilderness'..
MARK:-{1:4} John did baptize in the wilderness.......

2. Jesus was not tempted of the devil.... only metaphorically. His temptation was to leave the coming social struggle which was fast approaching the common working Jewish classes (against upper class greed, hypocrisy and treachery) and return to his easy, contented and happy lifestyle.

Granted, he passed the test.

There was no test. He could either pick up the challenge or leave it and go back to a very good life. Being a stoic did not make Yeshu's life 'poor' in any way.

The 40 days was probably spent in hiding..... just at or after John the Bap[tist's arrest, maybe? See what John wrote:-
JOHN:{10:39} Therefore they sought again to take him (YESHU?): but he escaped out of their hand, {10:40} And went away again beyond Jordan into the place where John at first baptized; and there he abode.
(....... and since John baptised in the wilderness, there Yeshu returned to take refuge....)

Are God and Jesus really one in the same? Please answer logically how this is possible given the verse above.

Not logical. Yeshu was a wonderful, charismatic, exceedingly gifted person.

It's all there, for all to read.....

 

[Latuwr]

Hi Shermana,
Blessings to you through Messiah Yahushua, My YAHWEH and My ELOHIM!
Shabbat Shalom!
Please allow me to give you assurance that neither Ken Brown nor myself are Trinitarians. We both believe that Our Messiah Yahushua was able to unite all humankind with HIMSELF through HIS Death. What this means is that you and I along with Messiah Yahushua are brothers. We belong to the same family, and that family is the family of ELOHIM.
This unity with Messiah Yahushua is not a unity with any ol ELOHIM. This unity is unity with the YAHWEH ELOHIM.
It seems to me that you yourself, in reading and explaining passages like John 10:31-38, that you yourself do not believe in your unity with the death of My Messiah Yahushua. I do not believe that you would confess, as did the Apostle Paul, that you yourself were crucified with Yahushua; therefore, you are fond of making others go down the Jehovah's Witness rabbit trail of inserting the indefinite article into your translation of the Greek often where it does not belong.
I am more than willing to discuss the use or lack of use of the Greek definite article in John 10:34-36, that is, if you yourself are willing to discuss that issue with me, but before we engage in that activity, would you be so kind to tell me whether you yourself did die with Messiah Yahushua on HIS Cross, or upon the torture stake as JW'S like to argue?
Thanking you in advance should you be moved to respond, I am,
Sincerely, Latuwr

 

[Shermana]

Hi Shermana,
Blessings to you through Messiah Yahushua, My YAHWEH and My ELOHIM!
Shabbat Shalom!
Please allow me to give you assurance that neither Ken Brown nor myself are Trinitarians. We both believe that Our Messiah Yahushua was able to unite all humankind with HIMSELF through HIS Death. What this means is that you and I along with Messiah Yahushua are brothers. We belong to the same family, and that family is the family of ELOHIM.
This unity with Messiah Yahushua is not a unity with any ol ELOHIM. This unity is unity with the YAHWEH ELOHIM.
It seems to me that you yourself, in reading and explaining passages like John 10:31-38, that you yourself do not believe in your unity with the death of My Messiah Yahushua. I do not believe that you would confess, as did the Apostle Paul, that you yourself were crucified with Yahushua; therefore, you are fond of making others go down the Jehovah's Witness rabbit trail of inserting the indefinite article into your translation of the Greek often where it does not belong.
I am more than willing to discuss the use or lack of use of the Greek definite article in John 10:34-36, that is, if you yourself are willing to discuss that issue with me, but before we engage in that activity, would you be so kind to tell me whether you yourself did die with Messiah Yahushua on HIS Cross, or upon the torture stake as JW'S like to argue?
Thanking you in advance should you be moved to respond, I am,
Sincerely, Latuwr

Yes, you are most likely not Trinitarians but Modalists, which is what most self-claimed "Trinitarians" are in reality based on their misunderstandings and interpretations/abuses of scripture.

Do you know what it even means to be crucified with Yeshu?

I am not JW, it seems to me that Evangelicals are fond of making people think only the JWs are against the Trinity, perhaps it's a great distraction from the fact that many secular scholars agree with their premises.

Tell me what it means to die with Yeshu on his cross in the first place, do you think you have done so? If so, tell me what you have done to achieve this.

And yes, the indefinite article there most certainly belongs. If you disagree, kindly quote Acts 28:6.

 

[Latuwr]

Hi Shermana,
Blessings to you through Messiah Yahushua, My YAHWEH and My ELOHIM!
Thank you for your reply!
I had to look it up, but I can assure you that I am not a modalist.
I did not mean to imply in my post to you that you were a JW. I have not yet met a JW who believes in keeping the Torah so I knew that you were not a JW.
I follow the Apostle Paul, who is one of my Fathers, in understanding what it means to be crucified with Messiah Yahushua.
Traditional Christianity, of which I am not, believes that Messiah Yahushua was crucified in their stead to pay their penalty for all their sins. I absolutely abhor, and so does Paul, any such substitutional belief.
My personal belief requires that I recognize that my sin killed Messiah Yahushua so that I can ultimately understand that I must turn from my sin and then keep the Torah of YAHWEH ELOHIM. If transgressing Torah kills a totally innocent person, then I must not continue in my sin lest I prove myself to be a deliberate murderer. This is the judgment that a true Believer enters into when confronted with the truth of My Messiah's death (John 12:31-32).
My Messiah did draw me into HIS Cross through the spiritual fulfillment of the Torah. I do not claim that I can fully explain how My Messiah was able to do this, but I recognize that this unity with HIS death did occur through the grace of ELOHIM of which most Christians are completely ignorant.
I understand that I, a sinner, a transgressor of the Torah, did die with Messiah Yahushua. If the sinner dies and is buried with Messiah, what then can happen? Should the sinner, who has died, continue in his sin of transgressing the Torah? Absolutely not, was the position of the Apostle Paul. How is that anyone who has died because of his sin, how is it that such a one could continue in their sin? This is not possible should one desire to possess life. This is not possible should one believe that they have arisen to the newness of life that is found in My Messiah Yahushua.
Accordingly, Shermana, I am a believer in LIFE NOW because I believe that Latuwr, the sinner, did die with Messiah Yahushua, and if the sinner did die, then I am required to prove this spiritual death should I desire to live and not physically die! Proof requires that Latuwr must now keep the Torah.
I expect that you will understand what I have expressed because a good understanding have those who love HIS Torah!
Thanking you in advance should you be moved to reply, I am,
Sincerely, Latuwr

 

[Xian Catalyst]

Matthew 4:1 Then was Jesus led up of the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil.

If Jesus was God, why was he tempted by the Devil? Can God be tempted by the Devil, his own creation?

Do you really want to know? Or just start to make a passive aggressive point?
Do you accept that god created all there is?
If so, then GOD existed before all there is.
John, the Apostle Jesus loved, claims that the Word was before creation and all was created through Him.
The Word, became flesh, I.E. Jesus.

Back to the before...
If God existed before creation, then He existed before time began.
Time witnesses things in a linear pattern, first one, then two, then three, then four, etc...
If there is no time, then 1, 3, 2, 4, are not in order, they just are.

From outside there is no linear order, so God would see all times, for all subatomic particle at once, one big picture.

If God is God, why couldn't He step into the creation? If He did, He'd still be outside the Creation watching Him inside the creation.

And that is how Jesus can be God.

Granted, he passed the test. But if he was God... Why was there a test in the first place? Does God need to test himself?

He passed the test, for us to witness him pass the test.
When you pray, does it force God's hand?
Did God know what you would pray for before you prayed?
If so, why pray?
Do we think it will change his mind?

Are God and Jesus really one in the same? Please answer logically how this is possible given the verse above.

First, you'd have to tell me why you think the verse above makes it not possible for him to be God.

Scripture doesn't say anywhere that ANYONE won't be tempted. Only that God would help them over come that temptation.

if God became flesh, why would the body not be tested? He came to live as an example.So He chose to live as a man.

Do you find any other things you don't think God can do?

I don't see a lot of limitations to God.

 

[InChrist]

Matthew 4:1 Then was Jesus led up of the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil.

If Jesus was God, why was he tempted by the Devil? Can God be tempted by the Devil, his own creation?

Granted, he passed the test. But if he was God... Why was there a test in the first place? Does God need to test himself?

I believe the scriptures portray that Jesus came to earth as the second Adam or representative of mankind ( Romans 5:12-19; 1 Corinthians 15:21-22; 47-49 )to bring victory for humanity, where Adam failed, over satan, sin and eternal death or separation from God. The first Adam and Eve were given dominion over the earth while in a loving relationship with the Creator. This dominion was given up by these first humans to satan when they failed to trust and obey God's word and chose to believe the enemy's lie and twist of God's word. When the Son in the flesh, the Person of Jesus (fully human) was confronted by the words of satan He refused the temptations offered and stood fast upon God's word. He gained victory on behalf of humanity. Jesus Christ alone, the Son of God in the flesh, was capable to gain this victory because He is also fully God.

Are God and Jesus really one in the same? Please answer logically how this is possible given the verse above.

[/quote]

I see the Bible revealing One God composed of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. The Son became flesh in the person of Jesus.

 

[kjw47]

Hi kjw47, I thought I might ask you a question or two. Why did the Jews take up stones to cast at Him after He said, "Before Abraham was, I AM?" (Please consider John 10:33 in your answer.) Also consider that when Yeshua was asked about WHO He was, He stated "I AM," and that was blasphemy to the high priest and he rent his clothes. Why would the high priest rend his clothes when he is commanded not to do that (Lev 10:6, 21:10)? And finally, when Yeshua told those who came to arrest Him, "I AM," why did they did they go backwards, and fall to the ground (John 18:6)?

Wouldn't you say that when Yeshua said, "I AM," on these occasions, that He was invoking the Sacred Name of Yahweh? KB

Good day Mr Brown, Shermana is close in his post about what God said back in the ot--it is more like--I shall prove to be what I prove to be. not I am.( it is not a personal name) YHWH(Jehovah) is his personal name. The trinity teachers are twisting what Jesus said----The Pharisees asked Jesus if he lived before Abraham, Jesus answered them--by saying Before Abraham was, I am-( which means he was saying he was the messiah, the one sent by God( YHWH(Jehovah)-Jesus was just affirming that he lived before Abraham--- The reason they picked up stones is because in the darkness of their reasonings --The Israelite teachers looked down on the flock members( they placed themselves on a pedastel)--they referred to them as Amharets ( giving table scraps to the dogs--but this was spiritual table scraps) kind of like trickle down economics. So when a mere carpenters son tried to teach them, their hearts turned to hatred to him--Jesus had tried to correct their bad teachings over and over--they hated him a lot. They tried Jesus the first night he was arrested, breaking their own laws of a man has 7 days to build a defense before being tried. their hatred was immense.