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If Jesus Is Coming Back,as He Said .......?

BruceDLimber

Well-Known Member
Thanks Art! :)

This is all the more apropos given that (unsurprisingly) it's the clergy who object to Christ on His Return....

Regards,

Bruce
 

Ronald

Well-Known Member
roli said:
If Jesus Is Coming Back as He said, should'nt the inhabitants of the World Be Concerned ??????

I mean if the scriptures are true and we are at the period in history where Jesus will come back to take those who trusted Him as Lord and Savior,those who are born again,spirit filled believers,should'nt this be cause for concern.

...... or will the world go on just as it always has, the bible says,as it was in the days of Noah,so will it be when Jesus returns, and we are definitiely here or have already surpassed Noah's days.
Believers are concerned about you and the persons they have not spread the gospel to.

We are no where close to the days of Noah. As wide spread as evil is in this world, there are many believers. This was not true in Noah's day.
So you are reading into the statement a wrong idea.
In the unbelieving world, they will be going about life as if the world will continue as it always has in the past and up until today!

Those who will rise to meet him in the air are prepared, as they will see the signs and know it is time. Matt.24:14-33 (First resurrection, my opinion and others)

ALL believers in the God of Israel who shema v'shemar, not just Christians, will be resurrected and go up to meet him in the air.

Shalom
 

Real Sorceror

Pirate Hunter
roli said:
If Jesus Is Coming Back as He said, should'nt the inhabitants of the World Be Concerned ??????
Um...no, not really. Jesus was the single coolest guy in the Bible. Hes not exactly someone I'd be afraid of or apprehensive about. I personally do not expect the world to end or change.
I mean if the scriptures are true and we are at the period in history where Jesus will come back to take those who trusted Him as Lord and Savior,those who are born again,spirit filled believers,should'nt this be cause for concern.
People talk about the End Times as if Jesus is gonna rush in, cammando style, and nerf all the nuaghty people. JC clearly was not that kind of person.
...... or will the world go on just as it always has, the bible says,as it was in the days of Noah,so will it be when Jesus returns, and we are definitiely here or have already surpassed Noah's days.
Huh?
 

autonomous1one1

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
michel said:
Thank you for the links, Michel, the few that I have had opportunity to read were enjoyable. Bell's Theorem was interesting. Also, it was interesting for me to find some commonality with Gnosticism about God is within and taking the path of directly experiencing the Divine, as well as the Kingdom of God is within you. Based on this, does anyone else consider, as I do, that the second coming of Christ is in the vertical as well as the horizontal? Horizontal referring to the timeline, history, past-present-and-future; and the vertical being within to the Eternal. If one realizes oneness with God within, is so 'reborn,' they surely will thereby see the return of Christ within themselves.
 
Scriptures very clear of Messiah Jesus as fully God return to earth. Spirit of God has three person in one God. There are two fully God and fully human revealed in Genesis 1:26-27. male and female, that these two created human souls in God image.

Messiah Jesus is fully God and fully man male, therefore, the Messiah Jesus return to earth as fully God Spirit is accompany the female fully God and fully human.

More details can check this website http://www.wdcic.org
 

roli

Born Again,Spirit Filled
Ronald said:
Believers are concerned about you and the persons they have not spread the gospel to.

We are no where close to the days of Noah. As wide spread as evil is in this world, there are many believers. This was not true in Noah's day.
My friend you are in the dark as to what the signs of His coming are from scripture.
Do you think the tropical and natural disasters,wars ,middle east crisis,armies from the North of Israel ,Russia,China etc are just mere coincidence,all prophecy
Luk 21:25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;

Mat 24:37 But as the days of Noe [were], so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
Luk 17:28Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;
Gen 6:5And GOD saw that the wickedness of man [was] great in the earth, and [that] every imagination of the thoughts of his heart [was] only evil continually.
Luk 21:20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
1Th 5:3For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.

So you are reading into the statement a wrong idea.
Look around friend follow the news and the bible and you will see quite clearly that the bible written thousands of years ago is describing what is actually happening today,it's ok if you don't want to admit it but don't attempt to try and convince others it's not happening
Luk 21:31 So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand.
I am quite content with what I see happening and what I read in scripture being fulfilled and am able to piece it together
In the unbelieving world, they will be going about life as if the world will continue as it always has in the past and up until today!
1Th 5:3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
?????? what is your point here
 

roli

Born Again,Spirit Filled
Real Sorceror said:
Um...no, not really. Jesus was the single coolest guy in the Bible. Hes not exactly someone I'd be afraid of or apprehensive about. I personally do not expect the world to end or change.
Regardless of what you or I personally think,Jesus says otherwise,
Mat 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Matt 24 is an excellent read
By the way the end of the world in the greek for world is "aion" meaning age
The world will not pass away but God will usher in a new earth and new heaven at the end of the age,which isMat 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
Mat 13:39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.

Mat 13:40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.

Mat 13:49 So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
Mat 24:3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what [shall be] the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
Mat 28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, [even] unto the end of the world. Amen.
Mat 24:6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all [these things] must come to pass, but the end is not yet.

Mat 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come


People talk about the End Times as if Jesus is gonna rush in, cammando style, and nerf all the nuaghty people. JC clearly was not that kind of person.
Mat 24:27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
Mat 24:44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.
Mat 25:13 Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.
1Th 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
 

Popeyesays

Well-Known Member
The problem that causes all the confusion about the return of Christ is that people try to understand the Book of Revelations as literal, and it isn't. It was never meant to be literal. It was meant to encourage the believers at a time when encouragement was severely lacking.

Jesus made three promises to mark His return--in His Own words, in the Gospels. What John said on Patmos is not scripture, it is commentary.

This is from the 24th chapter of Matthew and it is repeated in Mark as well:

14And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

15When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)
16Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
17Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
18Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
19And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
20But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
21For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
23Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
25Behold, I have told you before.
26Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
27For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
28For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
29Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

---One ought to read the whole thing, though because the Parable of the Fig Tree explains more.

Forget Revelations, it is irrelevant.

Regards,
Scott
 

Booko

Deviled Hen
divinemission said:
Scriptures very clear of Messiah Jesus as fully God return to earth. Spirit of God has three person in one God. There are two fully God and fully human revealed in Genesis 1:26-27. male and female, that these two created human souls in God image.

Messiah Jesus is fully God and fully man male, therefore, the Messiah Jesus return to earth as fully God Spirit is accompany the female fully God and fully human.

More details can check this website http://www.wdcic.org

I'm always amused by references like these:

“A woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars. The woman herself fled into the desert where she had a place prepared by God, that there she might be taken care of for twelve hundred and sixty days” (Revelations 12:1).

If they had any idea of the history of Islam, this would read very differently.
 

roli

Born Again,Spirit Filled
Popeyesays said:
The problem that causes all the confusion about the return of Christ is that people try to understand the Book of Revelations as literal, and it isn't. It was never meant to be literal. It was meant to encourage the believers at a time when encouragement was severely lacking
1Cr 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.
It's ironic that still others try to interpret the scriptures from a intellectual perspective,but Paul says that the natural man,the unregenerate,unconverted carnal state of man can not recieve the things or know then they are spiritually discerned.
So I ask you popeye,are you a spiritually born again,regenerated,converted believer,meaning from above, by the spirit of God.
Rom 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

Rom 8:15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.


Forget Revelations, it is irrelevant.
"Forget Revelation,irrelevant," the fact that you can make such a statement clearly shows according to scripture that you if you don't receive John's writings how shall you believe Jesus
You can't have it both ways
1Jo 4:13Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit.
Jhn 5:47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?
 

Popeyesays

Well-Known Member
roli said:
1Cr 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.
It's ironic that still others try to interpret the scriptures from a intellectual perspective,but Paul says that the natural man,the unregenerate,unconverted carnal state of man can not recieve the things or know then they are spiritually discerned.
So I ask you popeye,are you a spiritually born again,regenerated,converted believer,meaning from above, by the spirit of God.
Rom 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

Rom 8:15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
----------------------------------------------

You have listed the writings of Paul, not the words of Christ. The writings of Paul are not REVELATION, they are commentary.



roli said:
"Forget Revelation,irrelevant," the fact that you can make such a statement clearly shows according to scripture that you if you don't receive John's writings how shall you believe Jesus
You can't have it both ways
1Jo 4:13Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit.
Jhn 5:47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?

I will follow the words of the Gospel of John, since it contains directly the words of Christ while He bestrode the earth. The words of the Revelation of St. John are not Gospel, nor are they the actual words of Christ. Again it is simply commentary not Revelation.

Quite simply John was speaking of HIS Gospel, which was written long before the Revelation of St. John.

To put John 5:47 in context:

36"I have testimony weightier than that of John. For the very work that the Father has given me to finish, and which I am doing, testifies that the Father has sent me. 37And the Father who sent me has himself testified concerning me. You have never heard his voice nor seen his form, 38nor does his word dwell in you, for you do not believe the one he sent. 39You diligently study[c] the Scriptures because you think that by them you possess eternal life. These are the Scriptures that testify about me, 40yet you refuse to come to me to have life.
41"I do not accept praise from men, 42but I know you. I know that you do not have the love of God in your hearts. 43I have come in my Father's name, and you do not accept me; but if someone else comes in his own name, you will accept him. 44How can you believe if you accept praise from one another, yet make no effort to obtain the praise that comes from the only God[d]? 45"But do not think I will accuse you before the Father. Your accuser is Moses, on whom your hopes are set. 46If you believed Moses, you would believe me, for he wrote about me. 47But since you do not believe what he wrote, how are you going to believe what I say?"

I hate single verse citations, they are never revealing and used more by pundits to obfuscate than illuminate.

Regards,
Scott
 

athanasius

Well-Known Member
The Scriptures say that Jesus will be coming back but in a different way then he did the frist time.

"Behold and I saw one like the son of Man standing at the gate and riding in on a hotrod............It was then that the world knew that Jesus built my hotrod"(1 Gargamel 3:14-17)
 

Ronald

Well-Known Member
roli said:
My friend you are in the dark as to what the signs of His coming are from scripture.
Do you think the tropical and natural disasters,wars ,middle east crisis,armies from the North of Israel ,Russia,China etc are just mere coincidence,all prophecy
Luk 21:25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;

Mat 24:37 But as the days of Noe [were], so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
Luk 17:28Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;
Gen 6:5And GOD saw that the wickedness of man [was] great in the earth, and [that] every imagination of the thoughts of his heart [was] only evil continually.
Luk 21:20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
1Th 5:3For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.


Look around friend follow the news and the bible and you will see quite clearly that the bible written thousands of years ago is describing what is actually happening today,it's ok if you don't want to admit it but don't attempt to try and convince others it's not happening
Luk 21:31 So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand.
I am quite content with what I see happening and what I read in scripture being fulfilled and am able to piece it together

1Th 5:3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
?????? what is your point here
If you missed my point! You may well miss the signs of his coming! Although if you are alive at that time you will not miss the signs if you are awake. You have read the scriptures. Even though you have been dazzled by some fancy footwork of some dazzling preachers, the signs you mentioned are a wakeup call to those who are awaiting the coming of the Mashiach. There are a multitude of signs that have not taken place.
And the point is, as bad as the times are today they pale to the days of Noach, there was only Noach who walked with God, a righteous man. There are many on this and other forums who are righteous men.
The men who hear and believe the word of God will not miss their call to meet him in the air. They will see the resurrection and then they will be called up.

So re-read the Tanach and the NT and believe what the Mashiach says, just believing in him,will only get you in the second resurrection a thousand years after those righteous men who are taken up in the first.

Get right with God and get the point!

Shalom
 

roli

Born Again,Spirit Filled
Halcyon said:
True.

But also in response to roli's post - every generation has believed that their generation would see the return of Christ.
For 2,000 years people have been born, grown up, expected Christ's imminent return, and then died. Their children did the same, and their children, and theirs etc etc up till today - we still have people being born, growing up, expecting Christ's imminent return and then dying.

I guarantee to you that Tim LaHaye will die without seeing any form of Rapture.
Are you cretain of that,because as you look at what has been happening in our world the time is closer than it ever was,but time will be the only revealer of such a claim
 

roli

Born Again,Spirit Filled
Ronald said:
roli said:
If you missed my point! You may well miss the signs of his coming! Although if you are alive at that time you will not miss the signs if you are awake. You have read the scriptures. Even though you have been dazzled by some fancy footwork of some dazzling preachers, the signs you mentioned are a wakeup call to those who are awaiting the coming of the Mashiach. There are a multitude of signs that have not taken place.
And the point is, as bad as the times are today they pale to the days of Noach, there was only Noach who walked with God, a righteous man. There are many on this and other forums who are righteous men.
The men who hear and believe the word of God will not miss their call to meet him in the air. They will see the resurrection and then they will be called up.

So re-read the Tanach and the NT and believe what the Mashiach says, just believing in him,will only get you in the second resurrection a thousand years after those righteous men who are taken up in the first.

Get right with God and get the point!

Shalom
Thanks for the advice but my relationship and eternal destiny with God is secure according to the witness of the Holy Spirit within me and not by some dazzling preachers.

What is the standard of rightousness you are referring to.
Righteousness that is acceptable is thisPhl 3:9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:
Many claim to be righteous in their own sight :
Mat 23:28 Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity.
Pro 20:6 Most men will proclaim every one his own goodness: but a faithful man who can find?
Isa 64:6 But we are all as an unclean [thing], and all our righteousnesses [are] as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.
Rom 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
 

roli

Born Again,Spirit Filled
athanasius said:
The Scriptures say that Jesus will be coming back but in a different way then he did the frist time.

"Behold and I saw one like the son of Man standing at the gate and riding in on a hotrod............It was then that the world knew that Jesus built my hotrod"(1 Gargamel 3:14-17)

This sounds a little like mockery Gal 6:7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.

On the contrary
Act 1:11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven

Mar 13:26And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
Rev 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they [also] which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.
 

roli

Born Again,Spirit Filled
Popeyesays said:
roli said:
----------------------------------------------

You have listed the writings of Paul, not the words of Christ. The writings of Paul are not REVELATION, they are commentary.





I will follow the words of the Gospel of John, since it contains directly the words of Christ while He bestrode the earth. The words of the Revelation of St. John are not Gospel, nor are they the actual words of Christ. Again it is simply commentary not Revelation.

Quite simply John was speaking of HIS Gospel, which was written long before the Revelation of St. John.

To put John 5:47 in context:

36"I have testimony weightier than that of John. For the very work that the Father has given me to finish, and which I am doing, testifies that the Father has sent me. 37And the Father who sent me has himself testified concerning me. You have never heard his voice nor seen his form, 38nor does his word dwell in you, for you do not believe the one he sent. 39You diligently study[c] the Scriptures because you think that by them you possess eternal life. These are the Scriptures that testify about me, 40yet you refuse to come to me to have life.
41"I do not accept praise from men, 42but I know you. I know that you do not have the love of God in your hearts. 43I have come in my Father's name, and you do not accept me; but if someone else comes in his own name, you will accept him. 44How can you believe if you accept praise from one another, yet make no effort to obtain the praise that comes from the only God[d]? 45"But do not think I will accuse you before the Father. Your accuser is Moses, on whom your hopes are set. 46If you believed Moses, you would believe me, for he wrote about me. 47But since you do not believe what he wrote, how are you going to believe what I say?"

I hate single verse citations, they are never revealing and used more by pundits to obfuscate than illuminate.

Regards,
Scott
Scott ,to say that the words of Paul and John are merely commentary says so much about your understanding of Jesus,the Holy Spirit and any of scripture.
You appear to have a intellectual conception of scripture and can quote excellent verses,but it seems to me that your spiritual eyes are darkened as to what how these man wrote and interpreted scripture.
If you don't have the Holy Spirit dwelling within you you are in the dark regarding the deep things of God
It is imperative you read these,and could you explain to me your interpretation of what Paul is saying:
1Cr 2:1And I, brethren, when I came to you, did not come with excellence of speech or of wisdom declaring to you the *testimony of God. 2 For I determined not to know anything among you except Jesus Christ and Him crucified. 3 I was with you in weakness, in fear, and in much trembling. 4 And my speech and my preaching were not with persuasive words of *human wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power, 5 that your faith should not be in the wisdom of men but in the power of God.6 However, we speak wisdom among those who are mature, yet not the wisdom of this age, nor of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing. 7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, the hidden wisdom which God ordained before the ages for our glory, 8 which none of the rulers of this age knew; for had they known, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
9 But as it is written:
"Eye has not seen, nor ear heard,
Nor have entered into the heart of man
The things which God has prepared for those who love Him."*
10 But God has revealed them to us through His Spirit. For the Spirit searches all things, yes, the deep things of God. 11 For what man knows the things of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God. 12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things that have been freely given to us by God.
13 These things we also speak, not in words which man's wisdom teaches but which the *Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. 15 But he who is spiritual judges all things, yet he himself is rightly judged by no one. 16 For "who has known the mind of the Lord that he may instruct Him?"* But we have the mind of Christ.

Well with all due respect as a believer like Paul we have the same Spirit that Jesus released when He went to be with the Father.
That is the Spirit who will guide us in to all truth
Jhn 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, [that] shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

Jesus speaks to Christians through the Holy Spirit, "key word"
So when Paul speaks as in any of the writers of scripture ,Jesus is speaking through that same Spirit, as hard as that is for those outside the born again conversion experience to comprehend and believe and it may even be taken as an insult to one's intelligence,but no insult intended.
Jhn 14:17[Even] the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
As you probably already know those who wrote the word, were inspired or led by the Spirit.
But if one does not have the Spirit of the living God dwelling within them they can only give intellectual opinion of scripture and Paul calls that the natural man as I stated in 1Cor 2: 14
 
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