If Jesus Died...

[URAVIP2ME]

.......This is not God asking people "can I give you this" and offers salvation by dying on the cross.

Right, God did Not ask, " can I...... " because God loved us first - 1 John 4:9-10
God sent pre-human heavenly Jesus to Earth for us. ( we did Not ask for that )
We sin, we die. We can't resurrect oneself or another, so we need someone who can resurrect us. - Revelation1:18
Salvation/deliverance/rescue is offered to us "IF" we walk in the light - 1 John 1:7 (IF)

 

[firedragon]

Right, God did Not ask, " can I...... " because God loved us first - 1 John 4:9-10

That's why its irrelevant.

 

[Nakosis]

1 John 1-6

My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have an advocate with the Father—Jesus Christ, the Righteous One.
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.
We know that we have come to know him if we keep his commands.
Whoever says, “I know him,” but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in that person.
But if anyone obeys his word, love for God is truly made complete in them. This is how we know we are in him:
Whoever claims to live in him must live as Jesus did.​

In conclusion, Jesus' sacrifice is not so that we are redeemed, but rather so that we may be redeemed. Moreover, this redemption is available to everyone in the world. Anyone who wants Christ as his advocate should know him, not simply say that he knows him. Sincerity and Devotion; Truth and Love.

IMO, nobody really lives as Jesus did. If they really did, they wouldn't need an advocate.
However those that sought to be leaders needed someway to set themselves as worthy of leadership.

The Bible wasn't available, they only had their own words. They needed a way to identified who could be trusted.

 

[Wildswanderer]

You are literally trying to treat forgiveness as a physical commodity that can be placed into a trash bin.

Because it can...if you forgive me but I continue to hate you I have received no benefits from being forgiven.

 

[1213]

1 John 2:2

For all of Man's sins, aren't we all then redeemed?
The payment made in full. Nothing else is being asked of us.

To say God asks anything else from us, isn't this denying the payment Jesus already made?

When Jesus forgave sins, he asked this from the person:

“Neither do I condemn you. Go your way. From now on, sin no more.”
John 8:11

I think the same is asked from us too. And the payment, I think it is wrongly understood, if people think it was required for sins to be forgiven, because Jesus forgave sins even before his death.

The scribes and the Pharisees began to reason, saying, "Who is this that speaks blasphemies? Who can forgive sins, but God alone?" But Jesus, perceiving their thoughts, answered them, "Why are you reasoning so in your hearts? Which is easier to say, 'Your sins are forgiven you;' or to say, 'Arise and walk?' But that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins" (he said to the paralyzed man), "I tell you, arise, and take up your cot, and go to your house." Immediately he rose up before them, and took up that which he was laying on, and departed to his house, glorifying God.
Luke 5:21-25

Jesus was killed because of that he came to forgive and in that way he can be seen as sacrifice. But I think it should be understood the same way as when a soldier "sacrifices" his life while defending his country.

 

[Clizby Wampuscat]

The problem is that we have been tainted by being born from Adam and Eve. We keep making mistakes and are not in harmony with God's purposes.

ok

 

[Clizby Wampuscat]

He allows free will in that we can choose to listen to Him and be taught by Him.

I think you missed my point. If a god exists that can create any universe he can then He chose to create this universe where I am an atheist and you are a believer. He could have created a universe where I am a believer and you an atheist. If this is the case then we have no free will since God chose this universe. If not, then God did not choose to create this universe.

 

[Clizby Wampuscat]

Sin is connected to law. We would not know about a particular sin until the law says, "thou shall not do X". Forgiveness of sin makes law void, since law involves punishment for violation. If one's sins are forgiven in advance, there is no longer law, because law loses it teeth.

For example, if one breaks the speed limit and the Police Officer that pulls you over decides to forgive your violation with a warning and nothing more happens; forgiveness of sin, we get the same end result as they're being no speeding law that day on that road.

Then how can God forgive at all? Christians believe God will forgive their sins when they die so does that make the law void for them?

When Jesus died for our sins, it cames down to our own choice whether one still accepts law or not. Law is still with us. We still have to pay taxes and cannot drive over the speed limit, even though we have the forgiveness of sins. Law is no longer due to God, due to forgiveness of sin. It is now exclusively due to man, who are not as forgiven, when you violate their law. One will no longer go to hell for breaking the speed limit. But man can punish you, by stealing some of your money, in the name of their law.

I am not taling anout man made laws but trangressions against god.

A distinction was made, between the Children of the Bond Woman and the Children of the Promise. The children of the Bond Woman are like children of slaves who has no choice but to follow orders. The Children of the Promise, are like children of God who are not under law, since God has already forgiven them in advance, like an indulgent parent.

Law is connected to the tree of knowledge of good and evil, which was the tree of Satan. God did not tell humans to choose Law and knowledge of good and evil. There was a taboo in place. Humans choose that for themselves, with the coaxing of Satan. Law is not from God, but from Satan. However, humans thought law was from God, even though God told them not to do it this way.

Forgiveness of sin was there to reassure humans there was a better way that God had in mind for Adam and Eve, before they decided to serve Satan and Law. This is why Jesus is often called the second Adam. Jesus places us at the crossroads of Eden, once again, able over come original sin by our own choice. History shows that most humans, when given the same choices as Adam and Eve, still chose Satan and law, once again. Old habits were hard to break.

This may have to do with genetics and human selection, that involved humans choosing law over thousands of years. Violation of law would given selective disadvantages; pain and death. This pattern of selective behavior has become genetically innate, but we still have will and choice. But most people follow the easy path of innate; children of slaves who have to follow orders out of fear.

If you owned a slave, you can play God. You can make unjust laws and they have to obey. You can be abusive in the name of your own owner-slave world. This may also be why law was maintained by man even with the forgiveness of sin. Abusive people liked playing God via law. Forgiveness of sin meant even the slaves were forgiven, making the abusive people lose some power. Those who make the most laws are the most abusive since this leads to the most violations and the most punishment and abuse. They get to micromanage you like a slave.

Yet God laid down lost of laws to follow. Many of the specifically for the Israelites. Why would He do this if He did not want them to follow the law?

 

[Clara Tea]

1 John 2:2

For all of Man's sins, aren't we all then redeemed?
The payment made in full. Nothing else is being asked of us.

To say God asks anything else from us, isn't this denying the payment Jesus already made?

The deal (die for sins) isn't spelled out in writing. But I think that it involves more than erasure of original sin.

DIE FOR SINS? IT'S COMPLICATED:

Jesus didn't want to die (it was murder). Romans murdered Jesus. Romans asked the crowd if everyone was fine with the murder and everyone allowed it. If they had objected, they, and their entire family, and everyone they knew, would no doubt have been horribly killed. Romans were brutal and had crucified people up and down all of the roads to Rome. Recent popes have pointed out that the crowd consisted of people (not necessarily Jews). But there are parts of the bible that indicate that Jews allowed Jesus to be killed.

God was complicit in the murder of Jesus. Jesus was powerful (cure blindness, walk on water, turn water into wine, feed the masses with a few fish and few loaves of bread, etc). Why couldn't Jesus use some of that power to blind Pontius Pilate or Caesar? Apparently God took away the powers of Jesus, and Jesus had asked God "why hath thou foresaken me?" This begs the question, if Jesus was God, who was Jesus talking to? Himself? Obviously it wasn't Jesus's idea to die for our sins, but God let him die (with his powers stripped away).

WHAT IS NEEDED TO BE ABSOLVED OF ORIGNIAL SIN:

Apparently the sacrifice of the life of Jesus was necessary. Also, Jesus had to die in horrible agony (nailed without food or water, and no one was allowed to tend to his needs). He had been stabbed in the abdomen. He wore a humiliating crown of thorns. So, for some unknown reason, God required Jesus to be humiliated and feel horrible pain. Was this to get Jesus to understand what humans went through?

But, in addition to the horrible death of Jesus, it is also necessary for people to believe in Christ. This involves believing that a man named Jesus existed. It also involves believing that the Christ spirit was inside the demiGod Jesus. But I think that it also involves doing the things that Jesus would have done.

For example, before President W. Bush declared war on Iraq, he should have had the patience to find out if they were guilty of terrorism, and even then, W. Bush should not have defied God's commandment to not kill (part of the 10 commandments). W. Bush should not have born false witness against Iraq (accusing them of terrorism), etc. Clearly Jesus would not have made war on Iraq (warned against in Revelation), and would not have killed or made torture camps.

So, believing that a being named Jesus once lived is quite different than doing the things that Jesus would have done.

So, in order to erase orignal sin:

1. Jesus had to die a humiliating and painful death.

2. We have to do the things that Jesus would have done (don't kill, don't bear false witness, etc).

CAN INFANTS GO TO HEAVEN?

Infants can go to heaven, but, once there, they might be ousted to hell. Lucifer was kicked out of heaven and tossed into hell (eventually).

 

[Clizby Wampuscat]

That logic doesn't make sense to me. God knowing doesn't equal God causing. I still have a choice, but not if there is no God, then everything is predetermined by blind causation.

If God could have created any universe He wanted, then he chose to make this universe so everything that happens was predetermined by god. So there is no free will. If there is no God then I tend to agree that we do not have free will. But that is a different discussion.

 

[Clara Tea]

I think you missed my point. If a god exists that can create any universe he can then He chose to create this universe where I am an atheist and you are a believer. He could have created a universe where I am a believer and you an atheist. If this is the case then we have no free will since God chose this universe. If not, then God did not choose to create this universe.

Though God has the power to force His will upon us, supposedly God allows us to have free will.

I think that our souls are a piece of God. I think that God gives our souls the ability to control us, and only the good souls can return to heaven. The others are jailed in hell.

So, the animal part of us is not in charge of our actions, but our souls can control us.

 

[ppp]

Because it can...if you forgive me but I continue to hate you I have received no benefits from being forgiven.

Who said anything about hate? You could pee in my cornflakes out of indifference. Or you could think it is a good thing because of the superstitious teachings of your religion.

And you do receive benefits from my forgiveness. You receive the benefit of not being the subject of my wrath. The benefit of my not imposing my personal vengeance upon you. The benefit of my not subjecting you to the justice system. Both of those are benefits that you receive from my forgiveness.

 

[Clara Tea]

Then how can God forgive at all? Christians believe God will forgive their sins when they die so does that make the law void for them?

I am not talking about man made laws but trangressions against god.

Yet God laid down lost of laws to follow. Many of the specifically for the Israelites. Why would He do this if He did not want them to follow the law?

God might be like a southern sheriff with speed traps. Speeders might find themselves on chain gangs, sold to plantations. God might have made laws to entrap us.

 

[Clara Tea]

Who said anything about hate? You could pee in my cornflakes out of indifference. Or you could think it is a good thing because of the superstitious teachings of your religion.

And you do receive benefits from my forgiveness. You receive the benefit of not being the subject of my wrath. The benefit of my not imposing my personal vengeance upon you. The benefit of my not subjecting you to the justice system. Both of those are benefits that you receive from my forgiveness.

Cornflakes (uh oh....he found out).

Once you get into heaven, then what? Spend eternity next to a wrathful God?

 

[Wildswanderer]

Who said anything about hate? You could pee in my cornflakes out of indifference. Or you could think it is a good thing because of the superstitious teachings of your religion.

And you do receive benefits from my forgiveness. You receive the benefit of not being the subject of my wrath. The benefit of my not imposing my personal vengeance upon you. The benefit of my not subjecting you to the justice system. Both of those are benefits that you receive from my forgiveness.

You aren't God. You don't get to set the rules.

 

[Wildswanderer]

If God could have created any universe He wanted, then he chose to make this universe so everything that happens was predetermined by god. So there is no free will. If there is no God then I tend to agree that we do not have free will. But that is a different discussion.

You don't understand the difference between knowing and causing.
I can know my child will do wrong, that doesn't mean I caused it by bringing him into the world.

 

[Clara Tea]

Do all the people who don't die on the Cross don't die ever, please? Right?

Regards

The body of Jesus died, and the spirit (Christ) lived on and will return (2nd coming).

 

[Clara Tea]

Being able to read God's mind must be a really powerful gift!

Even more powerful are the politicians who constantly evoke religion, then sin horribly. Wars, torture camps (redefining the word torture so that torture can't exist), lies, environmental damage, ignoring the homeless, not helping hurricane victims, taunting prisoners on death row, etc.

 

[ppp]

You aren't God. You don't get to set the rules.

That is in no way responsive to what I said. That is merely an emotional knee jerk. If you disagree then identify the false statement.

And you do receive benefits from my forgiveness.

1. You receive the benefit of not being the subject of my wrath.
2. The benefit of my not imposing my personal vengeance upon you.
3. The benefit of my not subjecting you to the justice system.
4. Both of those are benefits that you receive from my forgiveness.

 

[Wildswanderer]

That is in no way responsive to what I said. That is merely an emotional knee jerk. If you disagree then identify the false statement.

And you do receive benefits from my forgiveness.

1. You receive the benefit of not being the subject of my wrath.
2. The benefit of my not imposing my personal vengeance upon you.
3. The benefit of my not subjecting you to the justice system.
4. Both of those are benefits that you receive from my forgiveness.

Again you aren't God. You can't compare how you operate with an all knowing being.