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If Hell is a place of eternal torment

Meow Mix

Chatte Féministe
I'm not sure if I accept the oxymoron 'honest skeptic'. That is, I think that the evidence for God's existence is rather axiomatic - in short, if He exists, it would be impossible to hide that fact, by either the material world, or the spirit of man. Is one being 'honest' when they claim that there is no perceivable way to induce the existence of God?

Therefore, the chances to repent during one's lifetime, are abundant. Outside of the obvious, creation itself, what occurs in one's life - how God attempts to intervene - should be sufficient. If one choses to remain unrepentant up to their death bed, I'm not sure what other catalyst would persuade them?

As far as being remorseful during one's lifetime, I think that that would be contingent upon what moral standard that one adheres to? Without God as the parameter, a sin to one person may not be as egregious to another? Thus, what I consider to be the most condemning sentiment for all humans, is that they don't love their neighbours as themselves, nor love God with all their heart, minds and soul. The former does not require faith in God to see the hypocrisy and injustice behind that. Yet, does the atheist or skeptic acknowledge their guilt on this fact?

Well, my date is taking longer than I did (which is sort of amazing).

So, what I wanted to say is that while I may not be able to convince you that honest skepticism exists, I can introspect that it does.

But perhaps what you’re saying is that for each person, just sometime before they die, God will ensure they have enough information to make an informed choice? If so, that would be less malicious than not.

Regarding remorse: if there is some particular standard that must be used for remorse, that sort of goes along with needing to know that (and to be convinced of that).

For instance, I’m a gay woman, I have no control over whom I’m attracted to, and in my worldview being attracted to women is not morally wrong. If it somehow is, I lack the information to affirm such a proposition. It seems like it would be incumbent on God to make sure I understand something is somehow wrong that my moral compass simply doesn’t register as wrong (and whose fault is that: if my moral compass is somehow faulty?)
 

DNB

Christian
But perhaps what you’re saying is that for each person, just sometime before they die, God will ensure they have enough information to make an informed choice? If so, that would be less malicious than not.
Yes, basically so. ...of course, there are those who die at such a young age that we would have to question what sort of fair chance could they possibly have been given. To me, God will mitigate, but I can't offer Scripture to prove this, nor can I afford to be dogmatic about it.

Regarding remorse: if there is some particular standard that must be used for remorse, that sort of goes along with needing to know that (and to be convinced of that).
For instance, I’m a gay woman, I have no control over whom I’m attracted to, and in my worldview being attracted to women is not morally wrong. If it somehow is, I lack the information to affirm such a proposition. It seems like it would be incumbent on God to make sure I understand something is somehow wrong that my moral compass simply doesn’t register as wrong (and whose fault is that: if my moral compass is somehow faulty?)
I believe, for both fundamental and theological reasons, that homosexuality is wrong by using evidences that are set before me, and available to everyone. Biologically, there is a deviation from the natural use of one's body as to what gender sexual intimacy, and especially copulation, is compatible with. All life as we know it subsists based on the principle of gender, we cannot survive without this acknowledgment and compliance. Theologically speaking, which cannot be imposed on everyone, God's design demanded the distinction of the two in both constitution and purpose.

Thus, Meow-Mix, I believe that there are grounds for you to know the difference, by one, ontologically speaking, and two, one's emotions should never dictate morality. I'm a man, and I like women, but, my emotions often take me to immoral areas in regard to that relationship. ...it is incumbent upon me to suppress those feelings - I do not make laws that approve of them. I may have an inordinate or perverted attraction to women, this must be circumvented. We have become grossly desensitized in this world, we do not see how evil that we all are (in God's eyes, or not).

Be careful of what you approve of MM, we cannot always trust our feelings. But, to the point, ignorance may not be a viable excuse as to why one might remain skeptical about God and his standard of morality and means towards salvation.
 

halbhh

The wonder and awe of "all things".
If Hell is a place of eternal torment, do you think it is good that God allows a place like this to exist?

How do you reconcile finite crimes with infinite punishments?

What is your theory of justice: for instance, Hell seems purely retributive: since someone is ostensibly there forever, there could be no rehabilitative purposes for it.

What about belief? Some worldviews believe that people will go to Hell for mere nonbelief in a savior or religion in general. How do you reconcile that without thinking your god is terrible?

Basically, for those that believe in Hell as a place of eternal torment, can you help me understand why you believe this is real, and why it doesn't cause you to think your god is a monster?
I'm glad that God doesn't have such unfair and wrong actions as infinite punishments for finite wrongs, etc., as you ask about.

Christ said God "destroys body and soul" of those that 'perish' in the 'second death'.

It's much like atheists imagine the first death is, a final end. That is indeed an eternal punishment, and those realizing what they have chosen will weep.

The good news is we get to choose whether to believe in Christ, who commanded us "love one another."

It's a choice , whether to believe that...whether to believe love is the good.

"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him."
 
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an anarchist

Your local anarchist.
What about belief? Some worldviews believe that people will go to Hell for mere nonbelief in a savior or religion in general. How do you reconcile that without thinking your god is terrible?
For what it’s worth, I don’t think you’re going to hell meow mix :)
 

We Never Know

No Slack
If Hell is a place of eternal torment, do you think it is good that God allows a place like this to exist?

How do you reconcile finite crimes with infinite punishments?

What is your theory of justice: for instance, Hell seems purely retributive: since someone is ostensibly there forever, there could be no rehabilitative purposes for it.

What about belief? Some worldviews believe that people will go to Hell for mere nonbelief in a savior or religion in general. How do you reconcile that without thinking your god is terrible?

Basically, for those that believe in Hell as a place of eternal torment, can you help me understand why you believe this is real, and why it doesn't cause you to think your god is a monster?

To some, in many situations and countries, how they live is hell. To them hell is on earth.
 

We Never Know

No Slack
Well, my date is taking longer than I did (which is sort of amazing).

So, what I wanted to say is that while I may not be able to convince you that honest skepticism exists, I can introspect that it does.

But perhaps what you’re saying is that for each person, just sometime before they die, God will ensure they have enough information to make an informed choice? If so, that would be less malicious than not.

Regarding remorse: if there is some particular standard that must be used for remorse, that sort of goes along with needing to know that (and to be convinced of that).

For instance, I’m a gay woman, I have no control over whom I’m attracted to, and in my worldview being attracted to women is not morally wrong. If it somehow is, I lack the information to affirm such a proposition. It seems like it would be incumbent on God to make sure I understand something is somehow wrong that my moral compass simply doesn’t register as wrong (and whose fault is that: if my moral compass is somehow faulty?)

No one knows what, if anything comes after. All we can do is live to be happy while we are here.
 

Praise Jah

Psalm 83:18
If Hell is a place of eternal torment, do you think it is good that God allows a place like this to exist?

How do you reconcile finite crimes with infinite punishments?

What is your theory of justice: for instance, Hell seems purely retributive: since someone is ostensibly there forever, there could be no rehabilitative purposes for it.

What about belief? Some worldviews believe that people will go to Hell for mere nonbelief in a savior or religion in general. How do you reconcile that without thinking your god is terrible?

Basically, for those that believe in Hell as a place of eternal torment, can you help me understand why you believe this is real, and why it doesn't cause you to think your god is a monster?
Hell ("Sheol" and "Hades" in the Bible's original languages) is simply the grave, not a fiery place of torment. Both good and bad people go to hell. (Job 14:13) (Psalms 9:17)

The Bible says that this common grave of mankind is "the house of meeting for everyone living". (Job 30:23)

Even Jesus went to hell when he died. However, he did not stay there because his Father, Jehovah God, resurrected him. (Acts 2:31-32)

Eventually all those in hell will come back out. They will be brought back to life by means of the resurrection Jesus will perform through Jehovah God's power. (John 5:28-29) (Acts 24:15)

Once hell is emptied out it will no longer exist and no one will ever go there again because death will be no more. (Revelation 21:3-4) (Revelation 20:14)
 

Meow Mix

Chatte Féministe
I believe, for both fundamental and theological reasons, that homosexuality is wrong by using evidences that are set before me, and available to everyone. Biologically, there is a deviation from the natural use of one's body as to what gender sexual intimacy, and especially copulation, is compatible with. All life as we know it subsists based on the principle of gender, we cannot survive without this acknowledgment and compliance. Theologically speaking, which cannot be imposed on everyone, God's design demanded the distinction of the two in both constitution and purpose.

Thus, Meow-Mix, I believe that there are grounds for you to know the difference, by one, ontologically speaking, and two, one's emotions should never dictate morality. I'm a man, and I like women, but, my emotions often take me to immoral areas in regard to that relationship. ...it is incumbent upon me to suppress those feelings - I do not make laws that approve of them. I may have an inordinate or perverted attraction to women, this must be circumvented. We have become grossly desensitized in this world, we do not see how evil that we all are (in God's eyes, or not).

Be careful of what you approve of MM, we cannot always trust our feelings. But, to the point, ignorance may not be a viable excuse as to why one might remain skeptical about God and his standard of morality and means towards salvation.

Homosexuality doesn’t seem to have moral connotations, though: certainly it is different from the norm, but so are many things about people.

It seems to me that things which cause victimhood or suffering are moral. Who I’m attracted to, who I love, there are no victims. With no attraction to men, I’d also be romantically alone otherwise. I just do not see why this would even be a moral issue at all. There is also the fact that this isn’t something I can help: if God exists, ostensibly I was created this way.

Edit: typing this before being fully awake, so the point being made is that if this moral compass is wrong (somehow), it doesn’t feel that way. Why would God give me a faulty moral compass if it’s hypothetically faulty? I’m not hurting anybody, and I fall in love like anybody else.
 
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DNB

Christian
Homosexuality doesn’t seem to have moral connotations, though: certainly it is different from the norm, but so are many things about people.

It seems to me that things which cause victimhood or suffering are moral. Who I’m attracted to, who I love, there are no victims. With no attraction to men, I’d also be romantically alone otherwise. I just do not see why this would even be a moral issue at all. There is also the fact that this isn’t something I can help: if God exists, ostensibly I was created this way.
Even under a heterosexual relationship what one does in the confines and privacy of their bedroom, is still not considered beyond reproach. Being selfish about one's sexual desires, objectifying the spouse, doing shameful acts (sodomy, toys, role playing, ..) , is an immoral offense. Claiming to have 'love' for one another, does not exempt one from being charged with an immoral act.

Thus, 'love' is not the determining factor of sin, it is the object of one's affections. If I love doing drugs, having sex, women who are well endowed, money, getting into fights, etc... one would have to question my interpretation of love, ...or my mental state. So that ultimately, MM, I believe that you will find a greater happiness in acquiring a romantic affection towards the opposite sex, ...this is why such a relationship is referred to as complementarianism - it is a symbiotic relationship. What a woman has, a man doesn't, and visa versa, this dynamic allows one strength to complete the other.

Again, however God allegedly created me, it was not perfect, I cannot assume that all my natural inclinations and propensities were morally sound. Through the process of maturation, I learned to curb countless of the desires that I had as a youngster, and good for that. Be careful of what you claim your limitations are, or of what spirit is behind them. I still have a great deal of work to do on myself, to the point that it will never end. I must be careful not to make excuses for any of my shortcomings, and not not praise my faults as though they are not wrong, but to recognize them as deficiencies.

God did create you female MM, and rather attractive at that (He blessed you there). He had a divine intent in mind in designing both you and I as man and women, respectively. I don't believe that we should attempt to defy that intrinsic principle.
 

Vouthon

Dominus Deus tuus ignis consumens est
Staff member
Premium Member
Even under a heterosexual relationship what one does in the confines and privacy of their bedroom, is still not considered beyond reproach. Being selfish about one's sexual desires, objectifying the spouse, doing shameful acts (sodomy, toys, role playing, ..) , is an immoral offense.

With full respect to your theology (and I genuinely just wish to understand it more, as there are no such restrictions placed upon me by my church, when it comes to spousal love), could you point me to a verse anywhere in the Bible - or a witness from the early Christian sacred tradition (the latter only applies if you belong to a non-sola scriptura denomination like I do) - which condemns any form of heterosexual anal sex, roleplaying or indeed 'sex toys' as immoral?

The first one I completely agree with (being selfish about one's sexual desires), inasmuch as we are told that relationships must be equally and mutually fulfilling, with both parties satisfied and respected in their desires and boundaries: "The husband should give to his wife her conjugal rights, and likewise the wife to her husband. For the wife does not have authority over her own body, but the husband does; likewise the husband does not have authority over his own body, but the wife does. Do not deprive one another except perhaps by agreement for a set time" (1 Corinthians 7:3-5).

So far as I am aware, however, there is no scriptural 'advice' on how believers are to orient their sex lives as a couple in the privacy of their own bedrooms. That's a private decision in the context of their relationship, in accordance with their respective consciences and desires.

We also have a celebration of the pleasure of oral sex in the Song of Songs in the Old Testament: with very richly poetic description of fellatio:


"As an apple tree among the trees of the wood,
so is my beloved among young men.
With great delight I sat in his shadow,
and his fruit was sweet to my taste
."

(Song of Solomon 2:3)

The erotic connotation is clear (oral stimulation of her beloved's penis), especially since the Hebrew word chek (for her palate) is used. And the exact same with cunnilingus, this time orated from the male perspective:


"I come to my garden, my sister, my bride;
I gather my myrrh with my spice,
I eat my honeycomb with my honey,
I drink my wine with my milk.

Eat, friends, drink,
and be drunk with love.
"

(Song of Solomon 5:1)​


Again, the erotic implications of the male lover enjoying with his mouth the delicacies of the women's body (the act of stimulating the vagina via use of the tongue and mouth), is frankly celebrated by the sacred author.

And both lovers are objectifying each other throughout the text - in terms that make clear they're both and passionately in love and mutually enamoured - with him saying to her: "How beautiful you are, my love, how very beautiful!....You have ravished my heart, my sister, my bride, you have ravished my heart with a glance of your eyes" (4:9) and of her other physical attributes: "your two breasts are like two fawns, twins of a gazelle, that feed among the lilies" (4:5) whilst she says of him in turn: "My beloved is like a gazelle or a young stag" (2:9) and then very effusively:


"My beloved is all radiant and ruddy,
distinguished among ten thousand.
11 His head is the finest gold;
his locks are wavy,
black as a raven.
12 His eyes are like doves
beside springs of water,
bathed in milk,
distinguished among ten thousand.
11 His head is the finest gold;
his locks are wavy,
black as a raven.
12 His eyes are like doves
beside springs of water,
bathed in milk,
fitly set.
13 His cheeks are like beds of spices,
yielding fragrance.
His lips are lilies,
distilling liquid myrrh.
14 His arms are rounded gold,
set with jewels.
His body is ivory work,

encrusted with sapphires.
15 His legs are alabaster columns,
set upon bases of gold.
"

(5:10-15)​


And all of this is perfectly normal and healthy in the context of a loving relationship. St. Alphonsus Liguori (1696–1787), a Doctor of the Church, in his Moral Theology, Books 2-3, n. 1151-1167, thus taught that: "acts such as kisses and touches that arouses lust are licit in marriage and the marriage act, and as a preparation for the marriage act...unchaste touches (which certainly cannot be done without a great deal of arousal) among spouses are licit...the very state of matrimony renders all these things licit; otherwise the matrimonial state would be exposed to excessive scruples".

Further to that:

upload_2021-8-15_18-19-56.png




There's a scholastic moral theology manual from the late nineteenth century by an Austrian capuchin of the Catholic Church, which was used by priests for the confessional, and it stated simply: "it is neither sodomy nor a grave sin if intercourse is begun in a rectal manner with the intention of consummating it naturally or if some sodomitical action is posited without danger of pollution."'

Anal sex between heterosexual couples (proper hygiene, protection, cleansing and safety notwithstanding) - as well as oral sex as foreplay - is considered a legitimate option in my tradition, as part of a healthy, consensual and mutually self-giving sexual relationship (so long as the couple include vaginal intercourse as part of their sex life to properly 'consummate').
 

DNB

Christian
With full respect to your theology (and I genuinely just wish to understand it more, as there are no such restrictions placed upon me by my church, when it comes to spousal love), could you point me to a verse anywhere in the Bible - or a witness from the early Christian sacred tradition (the latter only applies if you belong to a non-sola scriptura denomination like I do) - which condemns any form of heterosexual anal sex, roleplaying or indeed 'sex toys' as immoral?

The first one I completely agree with (being selfish about one's sexual desires), inasmuch as we are told that relationships must be equally and mutually fulfilling, with both parties satisfied and respected in their desires and boundaries: "The husband should give to his wife her conjugal rights, and likewise the wife to her husband. For the wife does not have authority over her own body, but the husband does; likewise the husband does not have authority over his own body, but the wife does. Do not deprive one another except perhaps by agreement for a set time" (1 Corinthians 7:3-5).

So far as I am aware, however, there is no scriptural 'advice' on how believers are to orient their sex lives as a couple in the privacy of their own bedrooms. That's a private decision in the context of their relationship, in accordance with their respective consciences and desires.

We also have a celebration of the pleasure of oral sex in the Song of Songs in the Old Testament: with very richly poetic description of fellatio:


"As an apple tree among the trees of the wood,
so is my beloved among young men.
With great delight I sat in his shadow,
and his fruit was sweet to my taste
."

(Song of Solomon 2:3)

The erotic connotation is clear (oral stimulation of her beloved's penis), especially since the Hebrew word chek (for her palate) is used. And the exact same with cunnilingus, this time orated from the male perspective:


"I come to my garden, my sister, my bride;
I gather my myrrh with my spice,
I eat my honeycomb with my honey,
I drink my wine with my milk.

Eat, friends, drink,
and be drunk with love.
"

(Song of Solomon 5:1)​


Again, the erotic implications of the male lover enjoying with his mouth the delicacies of the women's body (the act of stimulating the vagina via use of the tongue and mouth), is frankly celebrated by the sacred author.

And both lovers are objectifying each other throughout the text - in terms that make clear they're both and passionately in love and mutually enamoured - with him saying to her: "How beautiful you are, my love, how very beautiful!....You have ravished my heart, my sister, my bride, you have ravished my heart with a glance of your eyes" (4:9) and of her other physical attributes: "your two breasts are like two fawns, twins of a gazelle, that feed among the lilies" (4:5) whilst she says of him in turn: "My beloved is like a gazelle or a young stag" (2:9) and then very effusively:


"My beloved is all radiant and ruddy,
distinguished among ten thousand.
11 His head is the finest gold;
his locks are wavy,
black as a raven.
12 His eyes are like doves
beside springs of water,
bathed in milk,
distinguished among ten thousand.
11 His head is the finest gold;
his locks are wavy,
black as a raven.
12 His eyes are like doves
beside springs of water,
bathed in milk,
fitly set.
13 His cheeks are like beds of spices,
yielding fragrance.
His lips are lilies,
distilling liquid myrrh.
14 His arms are rounded gold,
set with jewels.
His body is ivory work,

encrusted with sapphires.
15 His legs are alabaster columns,
set upon bases of gold.
"

(5:10-15)​


And all of this is perfectly normal and healthy in the context of a loving relationship. St. Alphonsus Liguori (1696–1787), a Doctor of the Church, in his Moral Theology, Books 2-3, n. 1151-1167, thus taught that: "acts such as kisses and touches that arouses lust are licit in marriage and the marriage act, and as a preparation for the marriage act...unchaste touches (which certainly cannot be done without a great deal of arousal) among spouses are licit...the very state of matrimony renders all these things licit; otherwise the matrimonial state would be exposed to excessive scruples".

Further to that:

View attachment 53899



There's a scholastic moral theology manual from the late nineteenth century by an Austrian capuchin of the Catholic Church, which was used by priests for the confessional, and it stated simply: "it is neither sodomy nor a grave sin if intercourse is begun in a rectal manner with the intention of consummating it naturally or if some sodomitical action is posited without danger of pollution."'

Anal sex between heterosexual couples (proper hygiene, protection, cleansing and safety notwithstanding) - as well as oral sex as foreplay - is considered a legitimate option in my tradition, as part of a healthy, consensual and mutually self-giving sexual relationship (so long as the couple include vaginal intercourse as part of their sex life to properly 'consummate').
I do not have Scriptural attestation to support the precepts that I affirm about what is considered permissible, decent or dignified in a sexual relationship. But, first, I will say that we must live by the spirit, and not the flesh. Therefore, we are already in a precarious position when we indulge in the gratification of the physical. But also.

1 Corinthians 6:15-20
6:15. Do you not know that your bodies are members of Christ? Shall I then take away the members of Christ and make them members of a prostitute? May it never be! 16. Or do you not know that the one who joins himself to a prostitute is one body with her? For He says, "THE TWO SHALL BECOME ONE FLESH." 17. But the one who joins himself to the Lord is one spirit with Him. 18. Flee immorality. Every other sin that a man commits is outside the body, but the immoral man sins against his own body. 19. Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and that you are not your own? 20. For you have been bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body.

And as Paul stated '...better is he who does not get married but dedicates himself to the Lord...'

Thus, we must take an extremely reserved and conservative stance as to what degree of actions that we deem acceptable in sexual activities. Sex is not about the organs or the logistics, it is unequivocally about the person - it is an expression of one's affection towards another. Therefore, your licentious view on sex, to me, sounds extremely misguided - you fail to comprehend the purpose of a physically intimate relationship, or the vice of attempting to stimulate the organs. Words can't express how vile sodomy is, and that it doesn't take an erudite to understand the misuse of such an orifice in one's body - defying God's design of the anatomy. Utterly disgusting! The same can be said about felatio, these organs are prone to carry bacteria and pass great many fluids that are susceptible to disease and infection. This alone should be a warning about its God given purpose, and exactly what the intent is of the two parties - hedonism, not respect and love.

I don't accept your interpretation of Song of Songs, I do not believe that it is as perverted as you seem to comprehend it. But, again, I appeal to wisdom, that is, transcending the flesh and the physical, and aspiring for the spiritual. Do not objectify one's body as a means to an end. Love the person for who they are, and you will not have the desire to have anal or oral sex - for that position alone does not convey affection, but lust. Holding one gently and firmly in one's arms, shows protection and admiration, as opposed to getting on all fours to perform acts that arouse the nerves of one's organs, and not the heart.
 
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Meow Mix

Chatte Féministe
Even under a heterosexual relationship what one does in the confines and privacy of their bedroom, is still not considered beyond reproach. Being selfish about one's sexual desires, objectifying the spouse, doing shameful acts (sodomy, toys, role playing, ..) , is an immoral offense. Claiming to have 'love' for one another, does not exempt one from being charged with an immoral act.

But this is what I was saying: if I'm not convinced that God exists, let alone this specific one that is saying "don't do this, don't do that," and there is otherwise no moral impetus to some of these things, then how is it fair to be judged by them?

I think obviously being selfish is moral because it can cause suffering: that is a moral question even in my worldview. So on this we can agree.

Ostensibly objectifying can be moral for causing suffering as well (assuming this is a person doing so too much: but I think a little bit of objectification is normal. If we see our partner wearing something really flattering, I think it's OK to think, "that's really hot." That's a small amount of objectification, and nothing seems wrong with finding our partners sexy). But objectifying too much to the point that you don't see your partner as a person, absolutely, that has moral connotations.

However I don't see what's shameful about particular sex acts, or using toys, or roleplaying, this sort of thing. These are engaged in by consenting adults just having fun together: that doesn't register to me as shameful, even if some things are not for me (for instance I have zero interest in doing anything anal at any time, ever, but I still don't judge people that do to be "shameful").

Why are these moral things? Nobody suffers, nobody is victimized. The only way to say these are immoral is if some being like God simply says so (and that still only matters if God is the arbiter of morality, such as in Divine Command Theory). An honest skeptic isn't going to know that because there are many gods that forbid many things, some of it might as well be "thou shalt not eat fish on a Tuesday." I am not trying to be offensive or dismissive, just trying to shine some light on what it's like to be told that something that doesn't seem to have any moral connotation at all is somehow not only a moral question, but in fact immoral, when it is something shared between two consenting partners without suffering and without victimization.

Thus, 'love' is not the determining factor of sin, it is the object of one's affections. If I love doing drugs, having sex, women who are well endowed, money, getting into fights, etc... one would have to question my interpretation of love, ...or my mental state. So that ultimately, MM, I believe that you will find a greater happiness in acquiring a romantic affection towards the opposite sex, ...this is why such a relationship is referred to as complementarianism - it is a symbiotic relationship. What a woman has, a man doesn't, and visa versa, this dynamic allows one strength to complete the other.

I wasn't using the word "love" in the context of "liking something a lot," I was using it in the context of romantic love. You say that I would somehow find greater happiness in "acquiring a romantic affection towards the opposite sex," but I don't think you realize that this isn't something that we choose. We do not wake up one morning and decide, "you know what, I think I'll become part of a marginalized group that's ridiculed and scorned by large swathes of society." I'm physically attracted to women, I am not physically attracted to men: I can't change that anymore than you can just wake up and decide to change who you're sexually attracted to.

I treasure and cherish the men in my life. I have very deep and powerful, emotional, Platonic bonds with men. But I have a physical attraction to none of them, and I do not feel romantic attraction to them either. The closest men to me are as brothers to me, my chosen family. But I will not date, have sex with, or marry a man; that's just not the way that I'm built. Understand that this is beyond my control. Furthermore, since I don't see how this is at all a moral question, I don't think anything is wrong with this, some people are just gay. That seems to just be the way it is, I do not think being a lesbian is somehow a problem. There are no victims, there is no suffering.

There is still complementarianism in a lesbian relationship. We still complement each others strengths and weaknesses.

Again, however God allegedly created me, it was not perfect, I cannot assume that all my natural inclinations and propensities were morally sound. Through the process of maturation, I learned to curb countless of the desires that I had as a youngster, and good for that. Be careful of what you claim your limitations are, or of what spirit is behind them. I still have a great deal of work to do on myself, to the point that it will never end. I must be careful not to make excuses for any of my shortcomings, and not not praise my faults as though they are not wrong, but to recognize them as deficiencies.

God did create you female MM, and rather attractive at that (He blessed you there). He had a divine intent in mind in designing both you and I as man and women, respectively. I don't believe that we should attempt to defy that intrinsic principle.

I don't see my being a lesbian as a deficiency, and while I understand that you're coming from a particular religious worldview, it approaches being offensive to say that it is. (I'm not mad about it, I really do understand where you're coming from when you say that: but just saying). This is because again, this is not something I chose: this is just the way that I am. Again, if there is a creator that molds such things, this is the way God made me. And God didn't see fit to equip me with a moral compass that tells me "this is wrong," the same way that He gave me a moral compass that tells me stealing is wrong, or hurting people, or abstaining from helping people when able, etc. Why give me a moral compass so in tune with empathy but leave this one thing out (if it's supposedly wrong)?

(Thank you for the compliment ^.^)
 

DNB

Christian
But this is what I was saying: if I'm not convinced that God exists, let alone this specific one that is saying "don't do this, don't do that," and there is otherwise no moral impetus to some of these things, then how is it fair to be judged by them?

However I don't see what's shameful about particular sex acts, or using toys, or roleplaying, this sort of thing. These are engaged in by consenting adults just having fun together: that doesn't register to me as shameful, even if some things are not for me (for instance I have zero interest in doing anything anal at any time, ever, but I still don't judge people that do to be "shameful"). Why are these moral things? Nobody suffers, nobody is victimized.
Many acts that we perform are insidious, many people do not realize the character that it destroys when we indulge in certain activities. Things that appeal solely to the flesh (role playing, toys, fetishes, ..) are superficial and show a disregard for the persons involved - these acts are insatiable, they never leave one content and invariably become a vice. I imagine that this conclusion may be controversial or subject to contention, but that is definitely and unequivocally my experiences. People take for granted that just because we can't visualize or quantify the damage done, then there has been no consequence. But, I will affirm: show me the sexual practice, and I'll show you the character. ...tell me MM, that you wouldn't notice a distinct dichotomy in character between a person who is monogamous and conservative in their sexual standards, as opposed to one who is either promiscuous or practices S & M?

Consent does by no means determine whether an act is immoral or not. Many chose to smoke cigarettes, over eat, drive too fast, over drink, etc... Two consenting adults has no bearing on their ability to discern right from wrong, ...especially when, again, certain acts are not quantifiably destructive.

We do not wake up one morning and decide, "you know what, I think I'll become part of a marginalized group that's ridiculed and scorned by large swathes of society." I'm physically attracted to women, I am not physically attracted to men: I can't change that anymore than you can just wake up and decide to change who you're sexually attracted to.
This is an ongoing debate between the experts whether one is born homosexual or not. I'm in no position to challenge you on this, but I do know that certain desires can be either acquired or curbed, at least from my own experiences.

There is still complementarianism in a lesbian relationship. We still complement each others strengths and weaknesses.
Yes, but not as comprehensively as two distinct genders can, I believe.

I don't see my being a lesbian as a deficiency, and while I understand that you're coming from a particular religious worldview, it approaches being offensive to say that it is.
I was referring to my own desires also as being deficient or misguided. I'm attracted to women, and yet my desires in that area can lead to very perverse and offensive thoughts. I hold myself just as accountable as anyone in having unhealthy desires. Again, to me, certain acts are unhealthy to one's spirit whether or not we can visualize the damage that readily. ...there will be obvious effects to one's character between a person who choses to do nothing but play video games all day, where another prefers to be more industrious. Or, especially between those who are philanthropic, and those who are not. The difference in character will be quite evident.

Again, if there is a creator that molds such things, this is the way God made me. And God didn't see fit to equip me with a moral compass that tells me "this is wrong," the same way that He gave me a moral compass that tells me stealing is wrong, or hurting people, or abstaining from helping people when able, etc. Why give me a moral compass so in tune with empathy but leave this one thing out (if it's supposedly wrong)?
I believe that He did, but you're not looking in the right places for it - don't assume that where there is no complaint, that there is no harm...

Thanks MM!
 

Meow Mix

Chatte Féministe
Many acts that we perform are insidious, many people do not realize the character that it destroys when we indulge in certain activities. Things that appeal solely to the flesh (role playing, toys, fetishes, ..) are superficial and show a disregard for the persons involved - these acts are insatiable, they never leave one content and invariably become a vice. I imagine that this conclusion may be controversial or subject to contention, but that is definitely and unequivocally my experiences. People take for granted that just because we can't visualize or quantify the damage done, then there has been no consequence. But, I will affirm: show me the sexual practice, and I'll show you the character. ...tell me MM, that you wouldn't notice a distinct dichotomy in character between a person who is monogamous and conservative in their sexual standards, as opposed to one who is either promiscuous or practices S & M?

Consent does by no means determine whether an act is immoral or not. Many chose to smoke cigarettes, over eat, drive too fast, over drink, etc... Two consenting adults has no bearing on their ability to discern right from wrong, ...especially when, again, certain acts are not quantifiably destructive.


This is an ongoing debate between the experts whether one is born homosexual or not. I'm in no position to challenge you on this, but I do know that certain desires can be either acquired or curbed, at least from my own experiences.


Yes, but not as comprehensively as two distinct genders can, I believe.


I was referring to my own desires also as being deficient or misguided. I'm attracted to women, and yet my desires in that area can lead to very perverse and offensive thoughts. I hold myself just as accountable as anyone in having unhealthy desires. Again, to me, certain acts are unhealthy to one's spirit whether or not we can visualize the damage that readily. ...there will be obvious effects to one's character between a person who choses to do nothing but play video games all day, where another prefers to be more industrious. Or, especially between those who are philanthropic, and those who are not. The difference in character will be quite evident.


I believe that He did, but you're not looking in the right places for it - don't assume that where there is no complaint, that there is no harm...

Thanks MM!

Thank you for the thoughtful discussion, I am out and about but shall offer some thoughts when I can (likely tomorrow, though I may end up on RF tonight perhaps).
 
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InChrist

Free4ever
I saw it. Wasn't going to bring it up but since you did, if god is a spirit void of image, then what image did he use?
Personal and character qualities, such as love, kindness, joy, goodness, truthfulness, righteousness, holiness, purity, creativity, etc.
All of these can be seen in the human race to one degree or another in each person. Although, because humans have been tainted by sin, theses qualities are never perfectly expressed.
 

Hockeycowboy

Witness for Jehovah
Premium Member
The word from which “Hell” is translated in Hebrew (the OT), is Sheol. In Greek, the language of the NT, the word is Hades.

In the scriptures they are never associated with fire! Anyone can find that out for themselves.

Where many Bibles have Jesus saying ‘the fires of Hell’ (or ‘Hellfire), the word “Hades” isn’t there. It’s Ge’ena, ie., Gehenna. It has no connection to Hades.
Gehenna was Jerusalem’s garbage-dump area.

More misleading information from Christendom, generating fear to keep people in line!
 

Hockeycowboy

Witness for Jehovah
Premium Member
Bible tells hell is a place where soul and body are destroyed and eternal life is only promised for righteous.

And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Matt. 10:28

The word here in Matthew 10:28, translated ‘Hell’, is not “Hades”; it is “Gehenna”.

Which highlights my point, in the post above.
 
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