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If God Controls Everything...

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
For JoStories

In order to be free agents (as understood in a theological sense), we necessarily require the capacity to do that which God does not wish us to. We must also have agency, of course, and therefore the ability to act, and to choose to act in particular ways. "Before" creation (whatever that might mean), where only God existed and the cosmos did not, there was no morality. Not only were there no agents around who could act at all, such that an act might be immoral or moral, there were also no moral "rules". This no longer is true (for an omniscient, omnipotent, and perfectly good God) once the Cosmos exists. There is the capacity for things which we think of as immoral to occur (murder, genocide, etc.). Barring Ned Flanders, there are not many philosophers who would find Homer's question ("could God microwave a burrito so hot that he himself could not eat it?") or similar "limitations" actually limitations at all. A less well-known (relative to Homer's question) is Swinburne's proposal: it is not a limitation of God to assert "that if he is to keep Jones a bachelor he must keep him an unmarried man" or, put another way, that God is compelled to make Jones unmarried if Jones is a bachelor. That Jones is unmarried if Jones is a bachelor flows independently of God, but not in any way that limits God's omnipotence. It is simply to say that a thing is what it is.

Before the Cosmos, moral laws had no parallels to tautologies, logical validity, etc. We are left with "dummy variable" morality: "if x has the moral property y, then it is necessarily true that x has the moral property y." However, God then created as universe in which there would be humans. Humans feel pain. They can be harmed in any number of ways. Creating humans with the capacity to act freely and to be able to do wrong (even if given a sense of what is right), including e.g., burning another human alive, entails certain logical truths: it is true that if a human is burned alive, they will die in agony. This is not a necessary truth in and of itself, in that (in a creationist cosmology) God could have created drones incapable of pain, free will, and/or evil acts. However, it becomes a necessary truth which is contingent upon the manner in which humans experience things like being burned.

In order to have agents capable of doing that which God does not want, or that which God does not approve of, these agents must have some properties such that they can act in ways contrary to God's desire (if they could not, they would not have free will). So, in any possible world God creates, free agents must have some property x which allows them to commit some act y such that God does not approve.
Necessary morality is independent of God, but God of course approves of moral behavior. If God creates agents incapable of immoral behavior, God has ensured that these agents are bound to do whatever God wants and only that which God wants. They are thus not free.

Therefore, given any possible world, God's free agents must necessarily be able to act immorally. They must be able to act in a manner which has the property of being immoral. However, the particular nature of these properties is contingent upon God's choice. Depending upon the manner of creation, God could create a world in which being burned alive is pleasant or horrific, or even a world in which physical pain does not exist. However, there must be ways in which humans can act immorally, or God has not created free agents. Likewise, as God is benevolent, ensuring that agents are only capable of benevolent actions is again to deny them free agency by ensuring they do only that which God desires. So agents must be able to act malevolently. Once more, the ways in which acts become malevolent or not are contingent upon the manner of creation, but they are necessary components of it.

Or at least this is one answer to the Euthyphro dilemma that not only relates to why evil exists but absolute morality dependent upon God.
 

JoStories

Well-Known Member
YOU HAVE NOT RESPONDED NOR ANSWERED THE ARGUMENT I PROVIDED IN ANY SENSE/AT ALL
No need to shout Legion. If you think I had not responded as you would have liked, would you please ask your query in a concise and succinct manner? Perhaps then I can appease your questions. I apologize if you think I had not answered you.
 

JoStories

Well-Known Member
In order to have agents capable of doing that which God does not want, or that which God does not approve of, these agents must have some properties such that they can act in ways contrary to God's desire (if they could not, they would not have free will). So, in any possible world God creates, free agents must have some property x which allows them to commit some act y such that God does not approve.
Necessary morality is independent of God, but God of course approves of moral behavior. If God creates agents incapable of immoral behavior, God has ensured that these agents are bound to do whatever God wants and only that which God wants. They are thus not free.

I disagree with this. If you presume that God knows all and could, if God wanted, cause people to do as God wishes, or better, what God would not want, then God remains culpable for any action that God's creation commits. You live by a dualistic faith, IMO. IOW, good V evil. Or bad if you prefer. I don't and its one of the many things about your faith that did not resonate with me. I understand it is comforting or what works for you but imaging that God would have us hopping from one foot to another in order to get into 'heaven' makes no sense to me. In my faith, what I conceive of God only wants us to become enlightened or join with God. We do have lessons and sometimes those lessons are harsh as can be. But they teach us something if we are astute enough to recognize the lesson.
 
For JoStories

In order to be free agents (as understood in a theological sense), we necessarily require the capacity to do that which God does not wish us to. We must also have agency, of course, and therefore the ability to act, and to choose to act in particular ways. "Before" creation (whatever that might mean), where only God existed and the cosmos did not, there was no morality. Not only were there no agents around who could act at all, such that an act might be immoral or moral, there were also no moral "rules". This no longer is true (for an omniscient, omnipotent, and perfectly good God) once the Cosmos exists. There is the capacity for things which we think of as immoral to occur (murder, genocide, etc.). Barring Ned Flanders, there are not many philosophers who would find Homer's question ("could God microwave a burrito so hot that he himself could not eat it?") or similar "limitations" actually limitations at all. A less well-known (relative to Homer's question) is Swinburne's proposal: it is not a limitation of God to assert "that if he is to keep Jones a bachelor he must keep him an unmarried man" or, put another way, that God is compelled to make Jones unmarried if Jones is a bachelor. That Jones is unmarried if Jones is a bachelor flows independently of God, but not in any way that limits God's omnipotence. It is simply to say that a thing is what it is.

Before the Cosmos, moral laws had no parallels to tautologies, logical validity, etc. We are left with "dummy variable" morality: "if x has the moral property y, then it is necessarily true that x has the moral property y." However, God then created as universe in which there would be humans. Humans feel pain. They can be harmed in any number of ways. Creating humans with the capacity to act freely and to be able to do wrong (even if given a sense of what is right), including e.g., burning another human alive, entails certain logical truths: it is true that if a human is burned alive, they will die in agony. This is not a necessary truth in and of itself, in that (in a creationist cosmology) God could have created drones incapable of pain, free will, and/or evil acts. However, it becomes a necessary truth which is contingent upon the manner in which humans experience things like being burned.

In order to have agents capable of doing that which God does not want, or that which God does not approve of, these agents must have some properties such that they can act in ways contrary to God's desire (if they could not, they would not have free will). So, in any possible world God creates, free agents must have some property x which allows them to commit some act y such that God does not approve.
Necessary morality is independent of God, but God of course approves of moral behavior. If God creates agents incapable of immoral behavior, God has ensured that these agents are bound to do whatever God wants and only that which God wants. They are thus not free.

Therefore, given any possible world, God's free agents must necessarily be able to act immorally. They must be able to act in a manner which has the property of being immoral. However, the particular nature of these properties is contingent upon God's choice. Depending upon the manner of creation, God could create a world in which being burned alive is pleasant or horrific, or even a world in which physical pain does not exist. However, there must be ways in which humans can act immorally, or God has not created free agents. Likewise, as God is benevolent, ensuring that agents are only capable of benevolent actions is again to deny them free agency by ensuring they do only that which God desires. So agents must be able to act malevolently. Once more, the ways in which acts become malevolent or not are contingent upon the manner of creation, but they are necessary components of it.

Or at least this is one answer to the Euthyphro dilemma that not only relates to why evil exists but absolute morality dependent upon God.


Good morning, Legion.

Thanks for the morning curiosity pique!

God finds it valuable and beneficial that free agents exist, vs. automata, to a degree which he accepts the occurrence of morally reprehensible behaviors. I wonder what would become of me if I engineered a situation involving two individuals in which I knew the outcome would be morally reprehensible. Would I be able to, and to what degree, distance myself from responsibility by invoking that the two individuals involved were freely exercising their will? Further, state that the outcome (although egregious) is contextually necessary because other individuals in the same situation have freely exercised their will to produce an outcome which is either less reprehensible, or not at all reprehensible, but beneficial. Of course, I'm not an Omnimax God, so I guess I'd just be a negligent guy.
 

rusra02

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Rebels? What rebels?

Humans would live no matter what.



Genetics has already shown that we do not descend from one original couple. To account for all of the diversity in the human race, there would need to be an estimated 10,000 original people. That and people incorrectly assume that the Hebrew term "adam" (אָדָם) is the name of the first human male, when in fact adam refers to mankind...the human species, not a singular person.

Rebels? What rebels?

Humans would live no matter what.



Genetics has already shown that we do not descend from one original couple. To account for all of the diversity in the human race, there would need to be an estimated 10,000 original people. That and people incorrectly assume that the Hebrew term "adam" (אָדָם) is the name of the first human male, when in fact adam refers to mankind...the human species, not a singular person.
Obviously I ( and the Bible) strongly reject your theories.
 

rusra02

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
I would ask you this: Why would God do this? Why would God allow Satan to rule this world if God is omnipotent? Does it not negate the idea that God loves us all and wants us to be in heaven? Your faith claims that God knows all. Why would God do this to us if God already knows if we are going to be murders, or dney your faith at all?
God does not predestine our future. What I believe God has done is:
1. Provide the means to grant obedient people everlasting life (John 3:16)
2. Allowed time for Satan's slanderous challenges to be answered to all intelligent creatures, spirit and human. (Matthew 6:9)
3. Patiently and kindly made himself and his purposes known thru his Word the Bible (2 Peter 3:9)
4. Allowed time for a global witness to be given before he ends Satan's system forever (Matthew 24:14)
 

rusra02

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Do you believe there were literally two naked people in a garden with a talking snake?
I do not believe snakes can talk. The Bible reveals a spirit person (Satan) was using the serpent to speak to Eve. ( Revelation 12:9)
 

Demonslayer

Well-Known Member
I do not believe snakes can talk. The Bible reveals a spirit person (Satan) was using the serpent to speak to Eve. ( Revelation 12:9)

So you believe an uber-demon ventriloquist made a snake talk. :)

I love the use of the word "reveals." Like how Lord of the Rings reveals that Hobbit's have hairy feet.
 

JoStories

Well-Known Member
God does not predestine our future. What I believe God has done is:
1. Provide the means to grant obedient people everlasting life (John 3:16)
2. Allowed time for Satan's slanderous challenges to be answered to all intelligent creatures, spirit and human. (Matthew 6:9)
3. Patiently and kindly made himself and his purposes known thru his Word the Bible (2 Peter 3:9)
4. Allowed time for a global witness to be given before he ends Satan's system forever (Matthew 24:14)
I appreciate that you state that this is what you believe. So many others simply state things like this as fact and stating it is belief is refreshing. I would not agree with you of course but that is my beliefs as well. The problem I have with this is that it seems to negate every other belief system on the planet and further states that those people get to go to hell. For me, that would indicate a very monstrous version of God. If one rejects the Bible, for whatever reason, this is what happens and for me that is at the least untenable. Furthermore, not all people have been witness to your faith. Agreed it is a very small proportion at this time but it is still an issue. And lastly, for me the idea of Satan simply makes no sense. God knew he would choose against God and then allows this creature to sit in opposition. Again, it seems to indicate a very monstrous view of God and clearly I don't believe God is anything like that.
 

rusra02

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
I appreciate that you state that this is what you believe. So many others simply state things like this as fact and stating it is belief is refreshing. I would not agree with you of course but that is my beliefs as well. The problem I have with this is that it seems to negate every other belief system on the planet and further states that those people get to go to hell. For me, that would indicate a very monstrous version of God. If one rejects the Bible, for whatever reason, this is what happens and for me that is at the least untenable. Furthermore, not all people have been witness to your faith. Agreed it is a very small proportion at this time but it is still an issue. And lastly, for me the idea of Satan simply makes no sense. God knew he would choose against God and then allows this creature to sit in opposition. Again, it seems to indicate a very monstrous view of God and clearly I don't believe God is anything like that.
I DO NOT BELIEVE GOD TORMENTS PEOPLE IN HELL. NOR DID JEHOVAH CREATE SATAN OR FORETELL THAT THE ANGEL WHO BECAME SATAN WOULD TURN WICKED.
 

Neo Deist

Th.D. & D.Div. h.c.
Obviously I ( and the Bible) strongly reject your theories.

Obviously you have yet to disclose which translation of the Bible you speak of...or from. If you say the NWT...don't even bother continuing a conversation with me.

Some people are just archaic and continue to believe in fairy tales that are 2,000 years old or older, written by humans who had very little scientific or medical knowledge.
 
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Neo Deist

Th.D. & D.Div. h.c.
I do not believe snakes can talk. The Bible reveals a spirit person (Satan) was using the serpent to speak to Eve. ( Revelation 12:9)

May I direct your attention to Young's Literal Translation of that same verse: [YLT]...and the great dragon was cast forth -- the old serpent, who is called `Devil,' and `the Adversary,'...

Right off the bat you can see where there is no being with the name of Satan. YLT has correctly translated the references which were written in Hebrew (ha-satan). Furthermore, the concept of the devil as this evil arch enemy with red skin and a pitchfork is pure fiction. The term devil comes from the Greek diábolos, and it means slanderer or accuser.

In court, I can be an accuser.
In a game, I can be an adversary.

There is nothing sinister about it. "Satan" was merely performing his duty as an adversary when he challenged Jesus during the temptations. "Satan" is powerless to act without God's divine permission. The idea for "Satan" to be this evil bad guy comes from the human need to place blame on something, instead of accepting responsibility.
 
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LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Would I be able to, and to what degree, distance myself from responsibility by invoking that the two individuals involved were freely exercising their will?
I'd probably have to believe in god and a less agnostic stance on whether we can truthfully apply modal operators to moral dictums (whether we can respond to Hume with a sound basis for going from a "ought" to an "is"). At the moment, I can only say our legal, ethical, and moral systems (soundly or no) depend upon the assumption of at least a degree of free will in order to assign responsibility. If a person is found guilty of a crime, we hold that they were responsible for their actions because they could have chosen otherwise and did not.
Therefore, we have some reason to say that by creating a universe in which humans have free will, God not only allowed for individuals to do other than God would wish but that they would be responsible for their actions. Put differently, we seem to act as if (and often explicitly state there to be) a iff [if and only if] relationship between free will and responsibility. Thus God could only endow us with free will only if we were then responsible for our actions, and if he created us with free will then we would be responsible for are actions. God would still be responsible for giving us free will.
 

JoStories

Well-Known Member
I DO NOT BELIEVE GOD TORMENTS PEOPLE IN HELL. NOR DID JEHOVAH CREATE SATAN OR FORETELL THAT THE ANGEL WHO BECAME SATAN WOULD TURN WICKED.
No need to shout Rusra. I thought that you believed that God is omnipotent. If I am mistaken, I apologize. And if I am not, I don't see how this makes any sense. Either God knows or God doesn't.
 

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I disagree with this. If you presume that God knows all and could, if God wanted, cause people to do as God wishes
Yes, we could all be robots. However, we would not be human. Free will comes at the price of responsibility and the horror of freedom itself.

I understand it is comforting or what works for you
I'm agnostic. I don't believe in god.
 

JoStories

Well-Known Member
Yes, we could all be robots. However, we would not be human. Free will comes at the price of responsibility and the horror of freedom itself.

I'm agnostic. I don't believe in god.
I am not saying that I believe we don;t have free will. I am merely pointing out that, IMO, the Christian faith does not allow the concept.
 

Kilgore Trout

Misanthropic Humanist
Is it possible for an all-knowing god to create a being which is capable of doing something that god doesn't know that being will do?

Astute readers may see the parallels with such ideas as an omnipotent god creating a rock so heavy he can't lift it.

As far as the issue of God knowing as a certainty what you will do but not controlling you, it is immaterial, as the mere existence of certain, perfect, future knowledge is fundamentally no different than knowledge of a past event, and free will concerning future actions would be no more applicable than free will to change past actions.
 

Kilgore Trout

Misanthropic Humanist
Is it possible for an all-knowing god to create a being which is capable of doing something that god doesn't know that being will do?

Astute readers may see the parallels with such ideas as an omnipotent god creating a rock so heavy he can't lift it.

As far as the issue of God knowing as a certainty what you will do but not controlling you, it is immaterial, as the mere existence of certain, perfect, future knowledge is fundamentally no different than knowledge of a past event, and free will concerning future actions would be no more applicable than free will to change past actions.

Expanding on this more after some thought, I think I've narrowed down the crux of the matter more.

We can look at god as, essentially, a master programmer and creation as an incredibly complex program. Now, a program, no matter how complex, will result in predictable outputs based off of the initial rules and variables. That means the programmer is defining exactly what the outputs will be based on the initial conditions of the program. This is equivalent to the view that God's input at the beginning necessarily resulted in a predictable way everything that happened afterward, and thus no components within creation could exert free will.

The only factor which results in unpredictable outputs would be the inclusion of a random variable/number generator. In the creation program, the human being subroutines would have to (from God's perspective) be able to instantiate a random variable generator at each decision tree. This is what free will would be. In other words, the human subroutines would have the ability to make unpredictable choices from God's perspective.

This being the case, the question is, can a truly omnipotent entity create a true random variable generator that it cannot predict the outcome of? Put another way, can an all-knowing being create something it doesn't know?
 

rusra02

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Obviously you have yet to disclose which translation of the Bible you speak of...or from. If you say the NWT...don't even bother continuing a conversation with me.

Some people are just archaic and continue to believe in fairy tales that are 2,000 years old or older, written by humans who had very little scientific or medical knowledge.

Most any Bible. If you use the KJ version, that is fine. I prefer the NWT, an accurate translation written in modern English, unlike the KJ which was translated over 400 years ago. Jesus Christ, whose name you claim (deist Christian) believed God's word and taught it to others. (John 17:17)
 
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