If Christ comes today, how do you know it is really Him?

[Niatero]

He'd She'd be called Ardra.

I'm calling that a winner, no matter which Ardra you're talking about.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Then if any man tells you, 'Behold, here is the Christ,' or, 'There,' don't believe it. For there will arise false christs, and false prophets, and they will show great signs and wonders, so as to lead astray, if possible, even the chosen ones. "Behold, I have told you beforehand. If therefore they tell you, 'Behold, he is in the wilderness,' don't go out; 'Behold, he is in the inner chambers,' don't believe it. For as the lightning comes forth from the east, and is seen even to the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. For wherever the carcass is, there will the vultures be gathered together.
Matt. 24:23-28Then if any man tells you, 'Behold, here is the Christ,' or, 'There,' don't believe it. For there will arise false christs, and false prophets, and they will show great signs and wonders, so as to lead astray, if possible, even the chosen ones. "Behold, I have told you beforehand. If therefore they tell you, 'Behold, he is in the wilderness,' don't go out; 'Behold, he is in the inner chambers,' don't believe it. For as the lightning comes forth from the east, and is seen even to the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. For wherever the carcass is, there will the vultures be gathered together.

Matt. 24:23-28

As therefore the darnel is gathered up and burned with fire; so will it be at the end of this age. The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will gather out of his Kingdom all things that cause stumbling, and those who do iniquity, and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be weeping and the gnashing of teeth. Then the righteous will shine forth like the sun in the Kingdom of their Father. He who has ears to hear, let him hear.
Matt. 13:40-45

So, what do these verses mean?

For example, as lighting that comes in east, but its light is seen in west, how that can be.
Consider a lighting. If a lighting happens in Israel, it wll not be see in USA. Maybe can be seen, at most, 20 km further. So, how this verse will mean, if Christ comes in east, He will be seen in the western Continents, which are thousands of kilometers away?
Unless, other people, spread the news, through media. Then, what are we going to do with this verse:


"Then if any man tells you, 'Behold, here is the Christ,' or, 'There,' don't believe it. For there will arise false christs, and false prophets, and they will show great signs and wonders, so as to lead astray, if possible, even the chosen ones. "Behold, I have told you beforehand. If therefore they tell you, 'Behold, he is in the wilderness,' don't go out; 'Behold, he is in the inner chambers,' don't believe it. For as the lightning comes forth from the east, and is seen even to the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. For wherever the carcass is, there will the vultures be gathered together."
Matt. 24:23-28

 

[PearlSeeker]

So, what do these verses mean?

For example, as lighting that comes in east, but its light is seen in west, how that can be.
Consider a lighting. If a lighting happens in Israel, it wll not be see in USA. Maybe can be seen, at most, 20 km further. So, how this verse will mean, if Christ comes in east, He will be seen in the western Continents, which are thousands of kilometers away?
Unless, other people, spread the news, through media. Then, what are we going to do with this verse:


"Then if any man tells you, 'Behold, here is the Christ,' or, 'There,' don't believe it. For there will arise false christs, and false prophets, and they will show great signs and wonders, so as to lead astray, if possible, even the chosen ones. "Behold, I have told you beforehand. If therefore they tell you, 'Behold, he is in the wilderness,' don't go out; 'Behold, he is in the inner chambers,' don't believe it. For as the lightning comes forth from the east, and is seen even to the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. For wherever the carcass is, there will the vultures be gathered together."
Matt. 24:23-28

No spreading news. It's obviously about
appearing like Superman flying from the sky so everyone will see him.

"... he is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him... "

"... they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory."

"And while they were gazing into heaven as he went, behold, two men stood by them in white robes, and said, ‘Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into heaven? This Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will come in the same way as you saw him go into heaven.’"

 

[InvestigateTruth]

No spreading news. It's obviously about
appearing like Superman flying from the sky so everyone will see him.

"... he is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him... "

"... they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory."

"And while they were gazing into heaven as he went, behold, two men stood by them in white robes, and said, ‘Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into heaven? This Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will come in the same way as you saw him go into heaven.’"

You mean, flying in 200 countries, and all their towns and localities, so that everyone sees him, even in north and south pole, and Amazon? That's too much flying, to me.

 

[Trailblazer]

Then if any man tells you, 'Behold, here is the Christ,' or, 'There,' don't believe it. For there will arise false christs, and false prophets, and they will show great signs and wonders, so as to lead astray, if possible, even the chosen ones. "Behold, I have told you beforehand. If therefore they tell you, 'Behold, he is in the wilderness,' don't go out; 'Behold, he is in the inner chambers,' don't believe it. For as the lightning comes forth from the east, and is seen even to the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. For wherever the carcass is, there will the vultures be gathered together.
Matt. 24:23-28

Jesus gave that warning because He knew that many men would come claiming to be the return of Christ, and that is exactly what has happened.
Jesus knew that He was never returning to earth so anyone claiming to be Him would be a liar and a deceiver, or simply deluded.

The Bible says Christ would return with a new name, so we know he would not be the same Jesus who walked the earth 2000 years ago.

Isaiah 62:2 And the Gentiles shall see thy righteousness, and all kings thy glory: and thou shalt be called by a new name, which the mouth of the Lord shall name.

Revelation 2:17 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.

Revelation 3:12-13 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name. He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

The new name means that the return of Christ would be another man. It would not be Jesus Christ.

We also know it won't be Jesus coming back to earth because Jesus never said that He Jesus was going to return to earth.
Rather, Jesus said that His work was finished here and he was going to be 'no more' in the world.

John 14:19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.

John 16:10 Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more.

John 17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

When Jesus referred to the coming of the Son of man, He was referring to the return of His Spirit, the Spirit of God, in another man.
Jesus was referring to one like the Son of man, He was not referring to Himself. We know that the following verses are not about Jesus since Jesus was the Son of man, not one like the Son of man.

Daniel 7:13-14 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.

Daniel 7:13-14 cannot be about Jesus because Jesus said that His Kingdom is not of this world, it was in heaven.

John 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

As therefore the darnel is gathered up and burned with fire; so will it be at the end of this age. The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will gather out of his Kingdom all things that cause stumbling, and those who do iniquity, and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be weeping and the gnashing of teeth. Then the righteous will shine forth like the sun in the Kingdom of their Father. He who has ears to hear, let him hear.
Matt. 13:40-45

It may very well be that Jesus, the Son of Man, has sent and is continuing to send his angels from heaven, where Jesus rules forever.

Luke 1:32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:

“The Throne upon which He sat is the Eternal Throne from which Christ reigns for ever, a heavenly throne, not an earthly one, for the things of earth pass away but heavenly things pass not away. He re-interpreted and completed the Law of Moses and fulfilled the Law of the Prophets. His word conquered the East and the West. His Kingdom is everlasting.” Abdu'l-Baha, Paris Talks

 

[Trailblazer]

"... he is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him... "

"... they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory."

Revelation 1:7
"Look, he is coming with the clouds,” and “every eye will see him, even those who pierced him”;and all peoples on earth 'will mourn because of him.' So shall it be! Amen."

I believe that Son of man coming with the clouds means that the return of Christ will appear in the form of another human being. The term “clouds” as used in the Bible means those things that are contrary to the ways and desires of men. Just like the physical clouds prevent the eyes of men from beholding the sun, these things hindered men from recognizing the return of Christ.

In other words, the judgment of most people was clouded when Christ returned and it is still clouded for most people.

One thing that clouds the judgment of Christians is their desire for 'the same Jesus' to return to earth.

 

[Niatero]

Revelation 1:7
"Look, he is coming with the clouds,” and “every eye will see him, even those who pierced him”;and all peoples on earth 'will mourn because of him.' So shall it be! Amen."

I believe that Son of man coming with the clouds means that the return of Christ will appear in the form of another human being. The term “clouds” as used in the Bible means those things that are contrary to the ways and desires of men. Just like the physical clouds prevent the eyes of men from beholding the sun, these things hindered men from recognizing the return of Christ.

In other words, the judgment of most people was clouded when Christ returned and it is still clouded for most people.

One thing that clouds the judgment of Christians is their desire for 'the same Jesus' to return to earth.

I have a question about your beliefs. Do you believe everything that Abdu’l-Baha says about the Baha’i Covenant?

 

[Trailblazer]

I'm curious about something. If I'm understanding correctly, you don't believe everything that Baha'u'llah says, and you don't believe in doing everything that he says to do. Am I understanding that correctly?

I don't know why you would think that from the post you are responding to.
I believe everything that Baha'u'llah says, and I believe in doing everything that he says to do,.
But that doesn't mean I don't sometimes fall flat on my face! I am nowhere near perfect, I just struggle to believe and follow the teachings.

 

[Trailblazer]

I have a question about your beliefs. Do you believe everything that Abdu’l-Baha says about the Baha’i Covenant?

I don't know what you are referring to regarding the Baha'i Covenant but I generally believe everything that Abdu'l-Baha says.

 

[Niatero]

I don't know what you are referring to regarding the Baha'i Covenant but I generally believe everything that Abdu'l-Baha says.

Generally? Not always? Not always when he is interpreting Baha’u’llah’s teachings?

(later) disclosure: I’m asking because I’m curious about some of the behavior of people promoting their Baha’i beliefs in online forums.

 

[Trailblazer]

Generally? Not always? Not always when he is interpreting Baha’u’llah’s teachings?

Always when he is interpreting Baha’u’llah’s teachings, but not always when He adds to them.

(later) disclosure: I’m asking because I’m curious about some of the behavior of people promoting their Baha’i beliefs in online forums.

Please do not judge the Baha'is by my behavior as I am an outlier, and most Baha'is are not like me.

 

[Niatero]

Always when he is interpreting Baha’u’llah’s teachings, but not always when He adds to them.

Please do not judge the Baha'is by my behavior as I am an outlier, and most Baha'is are not like me.

Understood. Thanks.

 

[Niatero]

Always when he is interpreting Baha’u’llah’s teachings, but not always when He adds to them.

Please do not judge the Baha'is by my behavior as I am an outlier, and most Baha'is are not like me.

I’ll tell you what’s puzzling me in your posts, and if it’s too personal you can just ignore it and I won’t ask you about it any more. I’ve seen you denouncing Baha’is for teaching the Faith the way your House of Justice is telling them to instead of the way you think they should. That looks strange to me for someone who believes in the infallibility of Baha’u’llah. I can understand it if you don’t believe in doing everything that Baha’u’ullah says to do, or if you aren’t well informed about people’s reasons for doing what the House of Justice says.

 

[Trailblazer]

I’ll tell you what’s puzzling me in your posts, and if it’s too personal you can just ignore it and I won’t ask you about it any more. I’ve seen you denouncing Baha’is for teaching the Faith the way your House of Justice is telling them to instead of the way you think they should. That looks strange to me for someone who believes in the infallibility of Baha’u’llah. I can understand it if you don’t believe in doing everything that Baha’u’ullah says to do, or if you aren’t well informed about people’s reasons for doing what the House of Justice says.

I think you have a misunderstanding. I am not denouncing Baha’is for teaching the Faith the way your House of Justice is telling them to instead of the way I think they should. I do not have ideas about how Baha'is should be teaching, I was only saying that I think they should be teaching, and this is according to what Baha'ulah told us to do.

I believe in the infallibility of Baha’u’llah and I believe in doing everything that Baha’u’ullah says to do, which is why I try to follow Baha'u'llah rather than what the UHJ says to do, IF I see a conflict between those two. So if I do not see the UHJ putting the emphasis on teaching I am still going to put my emphasis there.

Maybe I am not well informed about people’s reasons for doing what the House of Justice says to do, and that is because I have been away from the Baha'i Faith organization for most of the years I have been a Baha'i. I also don't do well with the structure of an organized religion and being told what to do since I tend to do my own thing.

 

[Niatero]

I think you have a misunderstanding. I am not denouncing Baha’is for teaching the Faith the way your House of Justice is telling them to instead of the way I think they should. I do not have ideas about how Baha'is should be teaching, I was only saying that I think they should be teaching, and this is according to what Baha'ulah told us to do.

I believe in the infallibility of Baha’u’llah and I believe in doing everything that Baha’u’ullah says to do, which is why I try to follow Baha'u'llah rather than what the UHJ says to do, IF I see a conflict between those two. So if I do not see the UHJ putting the emphasis on teaching I am still going to put my emphasis there.

Maybe I am not well informed about people’s reasons for doing what the House of Justice says to do, and that is because I have been away from the Baha'i Faith organization for most of the years I have been a Baha'i. I also don't do well with the structure of an organized religion and being told what to do since I tend to do my own thing.

Thanks. I thought of a possible explanation for what was puzzling me, so I don’t need to ask any more questions about it.

 

[CG Didymus]

If Christ comes today, how do you know it is really Him, and not a fake one?

How do Baha'is know that their prophet, Baha'u'llah, is the return of Christ?

That's more important, because, if Baha'is are right, he's already come. Which would make the answers everybody else gives wrong and completely meaningless.

So, let's go through it all again... Why do you believe Christ has already returned?

 

[PearlSeeker]

You mean, flying in 200 countries, and all their towns and localities, so that everyone sees him, even in north and south pole, and Amazon? That's too much flying, to me.

You and @Trailblazer forgot two things.

1. Biblical cosmography was different:

2. Jesus will come with power and great glory. You can't see a single man from afar but you can see a big and shiny crowd (Jesus and angels) with "special effects". He was taken up to heaven (ascension) before apostles and he is supposed to descend from heaven when he comes back. So flying is required.

 

[Trailblazer]

Jesus will come with power and great glory.

Jesus will not come at a all unless He was a liar.

John 14:19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.

John 16:10 Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more.

John 17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Jesus will not come at a all unless He was a liar.

John 14:19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.

John 16:10 Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more.

John 17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

And other Gospels have other claims. You can support almost any belief with the Bible since it is quite often on both sides of an issue.

 

[Trailblazer]

And other Gospels have other claims. You can support almost any belief with the Bible since it is quite often on both sides of an issue.

I have been over this with many Christians for over 10 years, and not one Christian can produce any verses where Jesus says He is coming back to earth. None of the verses that say we will see the Son of man coming in the clouds are Jesus saying that HE s coming back.

Who is the Son of man who will come in the clouds of heaven?