I was accosted by a couple of Born-again Christians while fishing

[beenherebeforeagain]

Maybe you did not signal very well. Evangelists following Jesus's script and receiving a rejection should have handed you over to the judgment of the Lord, wiped the mud of their feet and moved on to the next person.

Regarding abiogenesis there is zero scientific proof and the arguments relating to a naturalistic emergence of life are speculative not fact based-

There

Whereas the arguments relating to a divine emergence of life are fact based, and not speculative...

 

[PureX]

I think this is where you diversion started by moving the goal posts and creating a straw man.

The post wasn't asking for confirmation that germs are an observed phenomenon or claiming they are not. It was about germ theory. Your answer in response is to something that wasn't stated and is not implied in what was stated.

This diversion seems to have worked for you in part, but I suppose that is why you employed it in the first place.

The post was trying to imply that because the existence of germs is an observed physical fact, that germ theory is also a matter of fact. I simply pointed out that the observed physical phenomena that we call germs is not synonymous with the theory of how they interact with and/or cause illnesses in humans. Same as with gravity. It is a fact that gravity is an observed physical phenomena. But it is not synonymous with the scientific theory of what gravity is and how it functions. Thus, the theory is not a matter of fact. The scientism folks here seem to want to conflate the fact of the phenomenon with the theory about the phenomenon so as to imply the theory is a fact.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

A theory in science is only a possible explanation of observed phenomena. It is never 'the' explanation because the scientific process requires an open/unbiased approach. This is why scientism is so antithetical to actual science.

Yeah, that's not how it works. The theoryof magnetism, that's another one where there is no doubts or scepticism. It is the explanation as to how magnets work and our entire society heavily depends on magnets. This is scientism, it's just that it's very safe to say we know how magnets work.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

But it is not synonymous with the scientific theory of what gravity is and how it functions. Thus, the theory is not a matter of fact. The scientism folks here seem to want to conflate the fact of the phenomenon with the theory about the phenomenon so as to imply the theory is a fact.

Go jump off the Empire State Building amd when you hit the bottom (because you will) tell us all about how theory isn't really a fact.

 

[mindlight]

Whereas the arguments relating to a divine emergence of life are fact based, and not speculative...

No you are right it requires more faith to believe in the spontaneous emergence of the irreducibly complex from chemicals than it does to believe in a super intelligence able to make that happen. I stand corrected.

 

[beenherebeforeagain]

No you are right it requires more faith to believe in the spontaneous emergence of the irreducibly complex from chemicals than it does to believe in a super intelligence able to make that happen. I stand corrected.

It doesn't matter 'how much' faith it takes to believe any proposition. The fact is that there is NO evidence for the creation of life by deity. There is more evidence for abiogenesis than there is for spontaneous creation by a deity...but more importantly, abiogenesis is testable and falsifiable; divine creation is not.

 

[mindlight]

It doesn't matter 'how much' faith it takes to believe any proposition. The fact is that there is NO evidence for the creation of life by deity. There is more evidence for abiogenesis than there is for spontaneous creation by a deity...but more importantly, abiogenesis is testable and falsifiable; divine creation is not.

There is no evidence for abiogenesis whatsoever. So this is a matter of faith.

 

[PureX]

Yeah, that's not how it works. The theoryof magnetism, that's another one where there is no doubts or scepticism.

Only in your own mind.

It is the explanation as to how magnets work and our entire society heavily depends on magnets.

It is AN explanation. Not "the" explanation (except in your own mind).

This is scientism, it's just that it's very safe to say we know how magnets work.

No real scientist would say that. You turn science into your own personal religion of "that answers that". Just like the Bible-worshippers turn their Bible into their own personal religion of "that answers that".

 

[RestlessSoul]

I was trapped at the end of the peninsula with all my poles in the water! I tried not to get involved but they whittled me down.

They were trying to make you a fisher of men, like the first apostles. Probably thought they were on a sure winner, given the signs and portents.

 

[beenherebeforeagain]

There is no evidence for abiogenesis whatsoever. So this is a matter of faith.

There is no evidence for divine biogenesis whatsoever. So this is a matter of faith.

We appear to have reached an impasse.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Only in your own mind.

It is AN explanation. Not "the" explanation (except in your own mind).

No real scientist would say that. You turn science into your own personal religion of "that answers that". Just like the Bible-worshippers turn their Bible into their own personal religion of "that answers that".

They would say that because our entire modern society is built around magnets. Or, more accurately, it is the work and theories of Einstein, Newton and Faraday that makes our modern world go round. That's how little doubt about things like that there are. Newton was so spot on his ideas were used to aaccurately predict the existence of a planet. Einstein we found he too was very accurate when we got to measure his predictions against what we see in the Cosmos. The only question is how to reconcile them because they have both been shown to be true time and time and time again but they are fundamentally incompatible with eachother. But that doesn't mean there are any serious doubts or scepticism towarda the Theory of Gravity and the theories of Relativity. They aren't going anywhere because we've used them to stuff Earth's orbit with satallites, with Faraday and Tesla giving us much of the necessary developments for our technology on the ground.

 

[dfnj]

They were trying to make you a fisher of men, like the first apostles. Probably thought they were on a sure winner, given the signs and portents.

I don't know much about men. But when it comes to fishing, I am a master at baiting my hook.

 

[dfnj]

It sounds like they weren't very effective fishers of men...what they could have done to be convincing was to multiply your catch of a single small perch to at least enough for dinner...

I'm reading through all the posts and then I came to yours. I have to disagree with you on this point. It's a matter of religion. In New Jersey, I never eat any of the fish I catch here. The water is too polluted. It's not safe to eat the fish. I throw everything back except bait fish.

 

[dfnj]

Praise Cthulhu!

Cthulhu is scary enough. But what scares me even more is the cultists who worship Cthulhu. It seems to me there's not much reward in that equation!

 

[dfnj]

There is no evidence for abiogenesis whatsoever. So this is a matter of faith.

Life itself is evidence of abiogenesis actually happened. It's a logical conclusion based on the fact cellular life exists.

Your argument is similar to the argument since there's no evidence non-existence ever happened in reality, we must conclude existence always existed because this is the only conclusion supported by the existing evidence.

 

[dfnj]

It doesn't matter 'how much' faith it takes to believe any proposition. The fact is that there is NO evidence for the creation of life by deity. There is more evidence for abiogenesis than there is for spontaneous creation by a deity...but more importantly, abiogenesis is testable and falsifiable; divine creation is not.

This is my most favorite response in the whole thread. I think abiogenesis is just fascinating topic. I really like the idea of lottery math involved. It just seems like a process within a cell having a feedback loop returning the process back to its original potential as it's processing inputs and outputs fits the exact meaning of life. Well, the self-replicating part is a bit tricky, but even that is a form of feedback loop. A build up to a release caused by multiple feedback loops working independent from each other. It just seems so possible in my mind. I don't think it takes huge leaps of imagination to see the possibility being realized given enough lottery tickets being purchased over time.

 

[PureX]

It's scary how stupid we all become when we start presuming that we know things. Some of the comments on this thread and others lately are just jaw-droppingly stupid. And being delivered as thought they're so obviously and unassailably true; dripping with bias and condescension.

Our educational system has truly failed us.

 

[Revoltingest]

Cthulhu is scary enough. But what scares me even more is the cultists who worship Cthulhu. It seems to me there's not much reward in that equation!

Let's hope the Cthulhu inspires responsible behavior.

 

[Audie]

Whereas the arguments relating to a divine emergence of life are fact based, and not speculative...

And there is proof of poof!

 

[Audie]

It's scary how stupid we all become when we start presuming that we know things. Some of the comments on this thread and others lately are just jaw-droppingly stupid. And being delivered as thought they're so obviously and unassailably true; dripping with bias and condescension.

Our educational system has truly failed us.

Don't be so hard on yourself.