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I lack a belief in Naturalism / Do I have a Burden proof?

Goddess Kit

Active Member
If you lack a belief in something, no.

Burden of proof is for those making the positive claims.

If you were to state, I know naturalism is absurd, then the burden of proof would be upon you to explain why.
 

viole

Ontological Naturalist
Premium Member
Understanding Naturalism as the idea that everything is caused by natural mechanisms……….I am not asserting that naturalism is wrong; I simply lack a belief in naturalism …….. Do I have a burden proof? (I assume not)

So if there is some naturalism in this forum, can you provide evidence for naturalism?


Obviously I am being sarcastic, I am using the same type of fallasious reasoning that atheist use when they say “I don’t assert that God doesn’t exist, I simply lack a belif in God” (therefore I don’t have a burden proof)

We can all use creative semantic games to avoid the burden proof , but the truth is that we all have to provide justification for our world views

Philosophical naturalism (aka metaphisical, or ontological naturalism), as the name indicates, is a philosophical position, ergo it does not require "proof", even though it can be defended rationally, when challenged. It entails thatall that exists is a closed system composed of a-teleological and unguided "natural" mechanisms, and that supernatural, or spiritual realities, involving a-physical entities with consciousness and such, do not exist.

But I know where you want to go with your challenge. And you have a good point, since I also think some atheists tend to make their life too easy by hiding behind "I simply lack belief of God, and therefore
I do not need to provide any further proof/evidence/justification". I wonder why, considering how fun and easy it is to justify a pure atheistic position. No matter how strong.

To come back to the main subject, I think that believing X does not require proof or evidence of X, in general. If that was the case, the word "belief" would be meaningless. And it is possible to believe things that do not have a shred of evidence, while still being rational. For instance, believing in life in other planets, does not look irrational at all, at least prima facie. So, in general, theists are not required to provide evidence of God if their claim is to believe in Him/Her/It/Them, even though they might be challenged to justify their belief. Things could change if they moved from claiming belief to claiming factual existence.

But let's assume, just for fun, that believing in X necessitates evidence of X, and check if it is true that atheists have an easier life, for what concerns delivering proof/evidence.

It all boils down to the following question: does disbelief in X entail belief in the negation of X? I think it does, but let's be systematic. We have two cases:

1) Yes, lacking belief in X implies belief in the negation of X. If we plug X=God we have: disbelieving God entails believing He does not exist. And in that case, the atheist cannot hide anymore, since her disbelief entails an actual belief.

2) Nope. Lacking belief in X does not entail belief in the negation of X. Again, if we plug X=God we have: it is logically possible to disbelieve God and disbelieve His non-existence, too. Ergo, if
atheists insist to be sufficiently described by lacking belief in God, then it is logically possible to have atheists who lack believe in the absence of God, too.
Which is weird, and looks much more becoming of a pure agnostic, than an actual atheist.

Ciao

- viole
 

A Vestigial Mote

Well-Known Member
1) Yes, lacking belief in X implies belief in the negation of X. If we plug X=God we have: disbelieving God entails believing He does not exist. And in that case, the atheist cannot hide anymore, since her disbelief entails an actual belief.

2) Nope. Lacking belief in X does not entail belief in the negation of X. Again, if we plug X=God we have: it is logically possible to disbelieve God and disbelieve His non-existence, too. Ergo, if
atheists insist to be sufficiently described by lacking belief in God, then it is logically possible to have atheists who lack believe in the absence of God, too.
Which is weird, and looks much more becoming of a pure agnostic, than an actual atheist.
I do not believe God claims at their mere presentation. That's my default behavior.

There are certain God claims made, which, after I know of them, I do form a positive belief that such an entity does not exist. However, that doesn't matter in the slightest when considering the real problem at hand - which is that I will most certainly be asking for a demonstration before I will believe a particular claim made in this arena. Until such a demonstration is made, I will simply not believe their claim.

Much like the man who comes to sell me a bridge - I withhold my judgment on the truthiness of his claim until I see the demonstration. I'm not saying "you don't own a bridge" - but neither am I accepting that he does, in fact, own that bridge outright. Show me the goods, and then I will be happy to accept your claim as factual. Don't show me, and it is as good as the man never having put this bridge idea in front of me in the first place. i.e. - I maintain my ignorance as to whether or not he owns the bridge. However - even in that scenario, we can still discuss all the logistics surrounding what it would take for him to own that bridge, and remark on the implausibility given the state of various aspects of his person that may or may not exhibit wealth or means to own such a thing, whether or not there are other claimants to the ownership of the bridge. But in none of that need I actually call the man a liar outright. I could... but I don't have to. According to your point #1 above - you would seem to be suggesting that the cry of "liar" must necessarily ring out. I don't feel this to be the case.

I suppose this is what you would call "agnosticism" - as being the case where you do not feel it possible to know, and while it is possible to "know" the owner of the bridge, it is not necessarily possible to know about a thing that does not present itself in reality. And I get that... but the use of the term "agnosticism" seems to imply to too many that there is the potential for you to be swayed with flimsy evidence, or that you are sitting on the fence, etc. I would rather people understand outright that I am not going to believe their extravagant claims without warrant.
 
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Nakosis

Non-Binary Physicalist
Premium Member
How do you know needs?

The needs are discussed, agreed to and written in a specification declaration or proposal to meet the specifications.

Though I suppose you are referring to personal needs.

That's what feelings are for. This biofeedback system we discussed earlier I believe. Pain, pleasure, fear, anger, lust, hunger etc... physical sensations. Not really the best method of feedback but sufficient enough to allow our species to continue to survive.

"Better" generally would be usually associated with more positive sensations. However, this is not a very good system of feedback. It lacks precision.

A system of measurement and specifications provides more efficiency/accuracy in deciding what is better.
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
That's an assertion you can't support by definition. It is true that anything we can't access can't be studied but it also means we can't say anything definitive about it either (see Schrodinger's Cat).

It also would mean that anything seen, heard or experienced by people in the physical universe can't be "supernatural". If we can't apply scientific method to something, that includes theology.

The problem of Schrodinger's cat is a 'thought experiment' based on a scientific question and has been resolved and is NOT based on a claim of evidence beyond our physical existence. 'Thought experiments' can take many forms, but they DO NOT represent theories nor hypothesis falsifiable by scientific methods.

Schrödinger's cat explained

"In 1935, E. Schrödinger proposed his well-known cat thought experiment suggesting, but not explaining, how a measurement transforms the probable states of an atom into the actual state of a cat (alive or dead). Rather than applying quantum mechanics (the previous approach usually taken), I offer an out-of-the-box, logically consistent explanation using metrology (the science of physical measurement).

In formal quantum mechanics, an atom (or other entity) is in a superposition, or probabilistic combination of all possible states. In this widely accepted view, each state is possible and no state is actual until a measurement occurs. How does a measurement change multiple probable states into one actual state? E. Schrödinger's tongue-in-cheek thought experiment explores this by proposing a comparison of an atom's quantum superposition to the physical measurement of a cat's state.

The following is all the information Schrödinger provided on his thought experiment: "One can even set up quite ridiculous cases. A cat is penned up in a steel chamber, along with the following diabolical device (which must be secured against direct interference by the cat): In a Geiger counter, there is a tiny bit of radioactive substance, so small that perhaps in the course of one hour, one of the atoms decays, but also, with equal probability, perhaps none; if it happens, the counter tube discharges, and through a relay releases a hammer which shatters a small flask of hydrocyanic acid. If one has left this entire system to itself for an hour, one would say that the cat still lives if, meanwhile, no atom has decayed. The first atomic decay would have poisoned it. The ψ function of the entire system would express this by having in it the living and dead cat (pardon the expression) mixed or smeared out in equal parts."

Schrödinger's experiment first appears to contrast the two distributions, the probabilistic time distribution of an atom's state and a cat's binary state (alive or dead) by correlating two observations (measurements): an atom's decay and a cat's death. In fact, by virtue of the apparatus, the actual time of each cat's death is a fixed time after the time of an atom's decay (due to the "diabolical device"). Schrödinger proposed the mean time of each of these equal but time-shifted distributions as one hour. With a mean time of one hour the maximum extent of every cat's actual time of death, distribution is estimated to be two hours.

Next, Schrödinger proposed one observation of the cat's state by a human at one hour. This is a one-time observation of a third distribution, the observed state of one cat over time. This may be compared with the cat's actual state (second distribution). This comparison is more interesting, as it appears to describe the measurement of a cat's state.

L. Euler defines all measurements as relative: "It is not possible to determine or measure one quantity other than by assuming that another quantity of the same type is known and determining the ratio between the quantity being measured and that quantity." The accuracy of each human observation of a cat is adjusted by calibration that correlates the measuring apparatus intervals (in this experiment, the time between observations) to a time reference (e.g., one second). This time reference is a non-local intermediate required to maintain Euler's relative quantity ratios.

The third distribution of each cat's observed time of death is correlated both to the actual time of death and to how often the human observes the cat (i.e., the time between human observations). In Schrödinger's experiment this time between observations is given as one hour. Then the accuracy of this one observation is +/- one hour relative to any possible cat's actual time of death (about a two-hour span).

When the times proposed (both one hour) are applied, the third distribution of the time between observations is uncorrelated to the first distribution of the atom's decay time. This occurs because the accuracy +/- one hour of the time between observations is close to as wide as an atom's decay distribution (two hours). This thought experiment, as presented, is two equal but time-shifted distributions of the atom's decay and cat's actual death (one ψ function) and one uncorrelated human observation (a different function). However, this experiment has drawn interest for 85 years because physical reality does not allow for the cat's state to be a superposition. What is missing?

The first human observation of a dead cat after an observation of life is measured in time relative to the beginning of the experiment (alive cat). These observations of the time of death identify that the distribution over multiple experiments is correlated with the ψ function of an atom's probabilities and that the state of each cat is binary. The actual time of death and the observed time of death are different. Because the observed time of death is also correlated to the time between observations and the time reference defined.

Consider the experiment when the observer (or measuring apparatus) counts the number of times the cat is examined. These observations result in a sequence of alive states ended by one dead state during the about two-hour maximum time to complete one experiment. Counting this sequence of alive observation generates a magnitude, but not a measurement correlated to a physical reference as Euler requires. Such a measurement requires defining and controlling the time between observations, which requires the calibration of the observer/measuring apparatus to a time reference.

As an example in Schrödinger's experiment, calibration would be setting and maintaining the time between observations to 10s (s = second, the time reference). Then the maximum variation of the observed time of death correlated to the actual time of death is +/-10s (i.e., accuracy). The count of observations is uncorrelated to any reference, and therefore not a relative measurement as Euler defined. Applying calibration, this count changes into a sum of the counted time between observations, where each time between observations is correlated to a time reference (second).

Calibration is required to observe a cat's time of death (i.e., a relative measurement). Schrödinger was correct—there is one ψ function of both the atom and the actual cat's state. But there is also a relative measurement including calibration to a reference which produces the observed cat's state. A relative measurement, which is physical reality, exists only when the second function occurs. Since quantum mechanics does not treat a reference, it cannot represent a relative measurement. Without a relative measurement, the most we can see are the probabilities of a superposition."

The cat is either dead or alive not both.

This story is part of Science X Dialog, where researchers can report findings from their published research articles. Visit this page for information about ScienceX Dialog and how to participate.

More information: E. Schrödinger, "The Present Situation in Quantum Mechanics". First published in German in Naturwissenschaften 23, 1935. This translation (J. D. Trimmer) first appeared in the Proceedings of the American Philosophical Society, 124, 323–38 (1980).

L. Euler, Elements of Algebra, Chapter I, Article I, #3. Third edition, Longman, Hurst, Rees, Orme and Co., London England, 1822. www.google.com/books/edition/E … &printsec=frontcover

K. Krechmer, Relative Measurement Theory, The unification of experimental and theoretical measurements, Measurement, Volume 116, February 2018, pages 77-82. www.sciencedirect.com/science/ … ii/S0263224117306887
 

Bear Wild

Well-Known Member
Please show that the universe is natural or do you use methodological naturalism?
I liked your post.

My premise is that the universe is what we call natural following the natural laws and forces that we attempt to describe as best we can through our extended senses and rational explanation best as seen in the scientific method. That said there are mysteries that we cannot yet explain or understand yet and some subjects that are so complex the scientific method is ill-equipped to answer but are still a part of the natural world governed by the same natural laws and forces. Our scientific answers are approximations of what is real and improve with time. Still our world has many mysteries that lie within the natural universe that are yet to be understood and may never be fully understood. For me it is comforting to know there are still mysteries in our natural universe, I just do not know how one could ever demonstrate what is outside of our natural world.
 

HonestJoe

Well-Known Member
The problem of Schrodinger's cat is a 'thought experiment' based on a scientific question and has been resolved and is NOT based on a claim of evidence beyond our physical existence. 'Thought experiments' can take many forms, but they DO NOT represent theories nor hypothesis falsifiable by scientific methods.
I never intended it to be. It was very much an aside, relating to the ability to make definitive statements about something we can't observe and shouldn't be used as a distraction from the core point. Feel free to ignore that side reference and address the actual point.
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
I never intended it to be. It was very much an aside, relating to the ability to make definitive statements about something we can't observe and shouldn't be used as a distraction from the core point. Feel free to ignore that side reference and address the actual point.

Simply, just not relevant to the issue. As far as Quantum Mechanics today we can image the basic particles of matter at the Quantum level and determine their size and weight. As time passes the being able to observe the most basic things about our physical issue is a non-issue also.
 

atanu

Member
Premium Member
Understanding Naturalism as the idea that everything is caused by natural mechanisms……….I am not asserting that naturalism is wrong; I simply lack a belief in naturalism …….. Do I have a burden proof? (I assume not)

So if there is some naturalism in this forum, can you provide evidence for naturalism?


Obviously I am being sarcastic, I am using the same type of fallasious reasoning that atheist use when they say “I don’t assert that God doesn’t exist, I simply lack a belif in God” (therefore I don’t have a burden proof)

We can all use creative semantic games to avoid the burden proof , but the truth is that we all have to provide justification for our world views

We keep arguing till our own doubts persist. Arguments drop once we are convinced ourselves. YMMV.
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
Understanding Naturalism as the idea that everything is caused by natural mechanisms……….I am not asserting that naturalism is wrong; I simply lack a belief in naturalism …….. Do I have a burden proof? (I assume not)

(I assume that by "naturalism", you mean the claim that ONLY the natural exists and that everything at bottom has a natural cause)

Indeed you do not have a burden of proof.

I wouldn't call myself a naturalist either.

While I agree that all evidence we have of anything, supports that position, with zero contradictory evidence, it is a level of certainty that I, even only by principle, am not comfortable with.

You can't claim knowledge concerning things you can't possibly know.

I consider it likely that the natural is all that exists, precisely because we only have evidence of natural things.
But evidence and proof aren't the same thing and they don't give the same level of certainty.

In fact, the word "only" in "only the natural exists", is the problem.
All the evidence we have, only proves the statement "the natural exists" - without the word "only".


Obviously I am being sarcastic, I am using the same type of fallasious reasoning that atheist use when they say “I don’t assert that God doesn’t exist, I simply lack a belif in God” (therefore I don’t have a burden proof)


It's not fallacious at all.
Indeed, the one who claims that ONLY the natural exists, takes on a burden of proof that he can not meet.

We can all use creative semantic games to avoid the burden proof , but the truth is that we all have to provide justification for our world views

Yes.

And justifying disbelief by pointing out that the burden of proof for the claim being disbelieved has not been met, is a very valid justification for disbelieving something.



ps: there's an obvious flaw in your analogy between theism and naturalism...
Theism: a god exists
Naturalism: ONLY the natural exists

==> these are not the same type of claims.
 

HonestJoe

Well-Known Member
Simply, just not relevant to the issue. As far as Quantum Mechanics today we can image the basic particles of matter at the Quantum level and determine their size and weight. As time passes the being able to observe the most basic things about our physical issue is a non-issue also.
How does that help with your assertion that the "supernatural" is beyond the physical universe and can't be tested? If it can't be tested, how can you declare what it's characteristics are (including it's ability to be tested)?
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
How does that help with your assertion that the "supernatural" is beyond the physical universe and can't be tested? If it can't be tested, how can you declare what it's characteristics are (including it's ability to be tested)?

Science does not claim to be able to describe characteristics of the supernatural, nor the existence or nature of other possible spiritual worlds beyond ours, nor does in come to any conclusions as to whether the 'supernatural exists or not. Science is neutral and does not draw conclusions beyond what can be falsified based on the objective verifiable evidence by Methodological Naturalism.

Individual scientists may make statements of belief by subjective philosophical assumptions, but that is not science.
 

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
How does that help with your assertion that the "supernatural" is beyond the physical universe and can't be tested? If it can't be tested, how can you declare what it's characteristics are (including it's ability to be tested)?
It becomes a possibility due to the limits of Science as per Scientific Method, and becomes a certainty because of the truthful Religion and the Religious Method, I understand. Right, please?

Regards
 

HonestJoe

Well-Known Member
Individual scientists may make statements of belief by subjective philosophical assumptions, but that is not science.
We're not talking about science (which is an abstract concept so doesn't claim anything) or scientists, we're talking about you. You stated that the "supernatural" exists "beyond our physical universe". I am simply asking you what you're basing those statements on given that you also stated that it can't be tested.
 
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