I feel American culture is threatened more by Christian fundamentalists than Islamists!

[Father Heathen]

He wasn't critical of the Israel. He was critical of the U.S for giving aid to Israel to defend itself.

Get your facts straight.

o i c, kk.

...but how is it "anti-semitic"?

 

[Enoch07]

o i c, kk.

...but how is it "anti-semitic"?

I already explained why on another thread and him and I worked it out.

But yes I have noticed an increasing amount of anti-semitism in the alt-left. So much so it is getting hard to distinguish the alt-left from the alt-right anymore. Why? I don't know.

 

[Jeremiah Ames]

Not really. The burden of proof lies with whomever wants to be believed. The OP is stated as a personal opinion, one that I happen to share (see below).

Also, there is no burden of proof if one is speaking with somebody that doesn't make his decisions using evidence and reason, but relies on faith instead. You cannot convince a an of that which he has a stake in believing because proving, like all teaching, requires the cooperation of the student.

It is for this reason that when the creationist demands evidence, there is no duty to provide any. Many science minded people do so anyway, but it is always in vain if their purpose was to sway the creationist. Their purpose has to be to research the matter if necessary and provide a cogent argument for the writer's benefit and for the benefit of any other reader that is able to read an argument impartially, evaluate its logical flow, and be willing to be convinced by a compelling argument that supports its conclusions.

Absent that, there is no burden of proof.



I'd call it self-evidently true.

Which religion has greatest access to American government? Which religion has greater appeal to and support from the American people. Which gets more of their minds, dollars, and votes?

The Muslims have very little access to political power in America. The results of the last presidential election resulted in a president that panders to Christians and loaded his cabinet with Christians like Betsy DeVos, Ben Carson and Rick Perry. And the threat of more activist Christians ending up on the Supreme Court to reverse Roe v. Wade and Obergefell thereby imposing Christian values onto Christian and non-Christian alike using the force of the American government is very real.

The Muslims have no proximity to power or popular support in America, and are therefore much less of a threat to American culture.They might like to make eating bacon a crime, or force women to obey a particular dress code, but they are much further from being able to do that than the Christians are to doing analogous things.

I find that to be a very compelling argument, and believe that most open minded, reason and evidence based thinkers would agree is compelling. Note that I am not arguing that Christians will succeed in making America a theocracy or otherwise harming American culture - merely that they are far better placed and a much more imminent threat to do so.

And the will is there:

• "Why stoning? There are many reasons. First, the implements of execution are available to everyone at virtually no cost...executions are community projects--not with spectators who watch a professional executioner do `his' duty, but rather with actual participants...That modern Christians never consider the possibility of the reintroduction of stoning for capital crimes indicates how thoroughly humanistic concepts of punishment have influenced the thinking of Christian." - Christian Dominionist Gary North bemoaning the influence that humanism has had

What do you think the Dominionist vision for America is? You can find on the Internet ("In essence, God was telling these three change agents where the battlefield was. It was here where culture would be won or lost. "), or just let Gary tell you himself:

• "The long term goal of Christians in politics should be to gain exclusive control over the franchise. Those who refuse to submit publicly to the eternal sanctions of God by submitting to his Church's public marks of the covenant-baptism and holy communion-must be denied citizenship, just as they were in ancient Israel." - Gary North

These are the stated goals of the Discovery Institute:

• "To defeat scientific materialism and its destructive moral, cultural and political legacies" and "To replace materialistic explanations with the theistic understanding that nature and human beings are created by God"

Here are similar sentiments from prominent Christians (one now dead). Would such people have ascended in the Christian ranks if their message didn't resonate with a large number of Americans?

• "I hope to see the day when, as in the early days of our country, we won't have any public schools. The churches will have taken them over again and Christians will be running them. What a happy day that will be." - Jerry Falwell

• "There will never be world peace until God's house and God's people are given their rightful place of leadership at the top of the world." - Pat Robertson

How about the incessant efforts to violate church state separation that keep organizations like the Freedom From Religion Foundation busy. These are their ongoing actions, all against Christian incursions into government. I doubt that they've ever had to threaten or file a lawsuit against a Muslim putting Islamic symbols and displays on government buildings.

How about the two great assaults on science in the public schools that resulted in the Edwards v Aguillard and Kitzmiller v Dover verdicts?

Secularists must always remain vigilant and tirelessly resist these incursions against the basic American value of church-state separation, a concept that religious apologist, revisionist Christian historian, and author David Barton says never existed.

So which of these religions is the greater threat to American culture? Who's banging at the gate? Where is the Islamic equivalent of this in America?

Can you rebut this?

I can't rebut, because your comment was well stated.
I will add my two cents.
I find it sad that many people here would be pleased to see an American society not unlike the one the pilgrims fled from.
However, I think the "churches" influence is waning and as the years go by more people realize that a more inclusive America is a better place for all of us.

 

[columbus]

Others who agree with you that Christian Fundies are more of a threat.

To me they are. Similarly, I am not much concerned about shark attack. But I am careful in the woods because of rattlers and copperheads. That would be different if I lived in the Caribbean.

It's called risk assessment and it's pretty rational.

Another example of this is AIDS. Promiscuous straight people don't seem to realize that they are at more risk than I (a gay man) because I haven't fooled around with anyone but Doug in over 20 years.
Tom

 

[Enoch07]

To me they are. Similarly, I am not much concerned about shark attack. But I am careful in the woods because of rattlers and copperheads. That would be different if I lived in the Caribbean.

It's called risk assessment and it's pretty rational.

Another example of this is AIDS. Promiscuous straight people don't seem to realize that they are at more risk than I (a gay man) because I haven't fooled around with anyone but Doug in over 20 years.
Tom

Well thats fine. But like I say its irrational. Because the data proves otherwise. We will just have to agree to disagree.

Anyways I hope you stay safe my friend from anyone that would want to harm you.

 

[Jeremiah Ames]

Oh ok. You just sounded like a white supremacist for a few seconds. Mad because we help Israel defend itself.

I'm curious why the Zionist state needs help? All that wasted money could be used to benefit Americans, instead of killing people in the Middle East.
Check this out:

 

[Enoch07]

I'm curious why the Zionist state needs help? All that wasted money could be used to benefit Americans, instead of killing people in the Middle East.
Check this out:

Because Israel is one of our very few allies in that region of the world.

 

[Jeremiah Ames]

Because Israel is one of our very few allies in that region of the world.

If that "ally" didn't exist, I doubt we would have any enemies in the area. After living in Saudi Arabia many years and visiting Iran a few times, I met many wonderful people there.

 

[Enoch07]

If that "ally" didn't exist, I doubt we would have any enemies in the area.

I doubt it. There are more factors are at play than just that. The middle east has always been in turmoil. Whether its Shia vs Sunni, or Buddhist vs Muslim, or Soviet vs Afghanis. This is always been a highly contentious area of the world since the beginning of written history and probably before. It will probably always be contentious.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Half of all British Muslims think homosexuality should be illegal, poll finds

We aren't talking about British populations, but Christians in America. Do you realize your group is so bad that you have to try to shine the spot light on another?
And, BTW, here in America Muslims are more accepting of homosexuality than Christians are.

Neither do Christian Fundamentalists.

Is that how Mike Pence, Mr. "Christian. Conservative. Republican. In that order," got his RFRA bill passed to allow businesses to discriminate against LBGT?

 

[Enoch07]

We aren't talking about British populations, but Christians in America. Do you realize your group is so bad that you have to try to shine the spot light on another?
And, BTW, here in America Muslims are more accepting of homosexuality than Christians are.

Is that how Mike Pence, Mr. "Christian. Conservative. Republican. In that order," got his RFRA bill passed to allow businesses to discriminate against LBGT?

Ooops someone is mistaken,

The Right to Refuse Service: Can a Business Refuse Service to Someone?

An exert from this article:

The law caused such a firestorm that the legislature hastily enacted an amendment clarifying that the law could not be used to discriminate on the basis of sexual preference.


Is it sad that I know more about gay rights than you?

 

[columbus]

Is it sad that I know more about gay rights than you?

It makes you look uninformed to be charitable about it. Shadow Wolf and I both live here and know what all happened.
Tom

 

[Enoch07]

It makes you look uninformed to be charitable about it. Shadow Wolf and I both live here and know what all happened.
Tom

The law says otherwise. I don't know what else to say about it.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Is it sad that I know more about gay rights than you?

Once again, thank you for doing my work. You provide the stupidity, and I'll just sit back and let the world see it.

 

[Enoch07]

Once again, thank you for doing my work. You provide the stupidity, and I'll just sit back and let the world see it.

Prove me wrong.

I refuted your claim with evidence and facts. You can be butt hurt about it. But it don't change the facts.

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

But yelling something like "Jesus is great!!" while blowing themselves up?, I'm not aware of such.

When a Christian beheads an atheist friend, is that okay?

Gentiles means a godless people. Not white people btw.

How many ancient Middle Eastern Jews were white? As a white woman, would they assume I'm Jewish or a gentile? Plus, the gentiles had lots of gods, so they were hardly "godless", right?

It is only when speech turns into physical violence is action needed.

And yet we call libel, slander, harassment, stalking, etc CRIMES. You don't have to throw a punch to be an evil jerk.

Why so anti-semitic bro?

I'm sorry. I don't equate an entire religious population with one country's "leadership". I don't consider lumping everyone together moral. I mean, you ARE complaining that Evangelical Christians aren't really terrorists or at least threats, right?

The only place I would (respectfully) disagree is that I think there is a ways to go before the "right wing" threat reaches the level of the suicide bombers such as the 911 attacks and others around the world that seem to be becoming more numerous.

I think the problem is that one group of terrorists are being measured with how many they kill in a single setting, versus how many the other group kills across longer time periods. A religion of any sort guilty of contributing to a total of a million deaths (hypothetically) a year is surely worse than one instance of a thousand or so.

Why should the tax payers pay for it?

Why don't you support our soldiers?

Ummm. Kellies a girl.

LOL. <3

Kelly can be a boys or girls name. So its whatevs.

True, but do I have to show my boobs in my avatar to make it clearer?

I am an egalitarian so I have this terrible habit of treating men and women equally.

What about Christians and Muslims?

Not like feminist who believe women are lower than men, and men should be held back so the womenz can catch up.

Hey, we were worshiped early on. You men with your silly nub of a second sex chromosome couldn't stand our feminine superiority.

All that tells me is that Islamic terrorist are far more efficient at murder. Yet your more think the Christian fundies are the greater threat?

Seriously, does it matter if people are killed by snipers or by some drunk with a machine gun? Blood is blood.

In southern Indiana, I am about as concerned about Islamic terrorists as being struck by lightening. As a gay atheist I have to be much more careful about Christians.
Tom

I'm a cis hetero woman and I had more to fear from white Christian rednecks than any other population.

He wasn't critical of the Israel. He was critical of the U.S for giving aid to Israel to defend itself.

So, again, how does this make it anti-Semitic? Have you ever seen an Israeli tourism commercial? Contrast it with what Gaza looks like and tell me that the US should be helping that.

But yes I have noticed an increasing amount of anti-semitism in the alt-left.

Hey, I'm not an evangelical Christian hoping Israel succeeds so Jesus can come down and wipe everyone out. If Israelis think we're their ally, I'd hate to see what they think an enemy is.

Because Israel is one of our very few allies in that region of the world.

Israel doesn't have as much oil as their neighbors. We talk big about enemies until it comes time to buy their stuff.

I doubt it. There are more factors are at play than just that. The middle east has always been in turmoil. Whether its Shia vs Sunni, or Buddhist vs Muslim, or Soviet vs Afghanis. This is always been a highly contentious area of the world since the beginning of written history and probably before. It will probably always be contentious.

Israelis are in the Middle East, too, or are you like Trump and can't seem to tell the difference?

 

[Shadow Wolf]

True, but do I have to show my boobs in my avatar to make it clearer?

With some members, considering having your profile marked as female, having a symbol of venus-based avatar, and having other members use female nouns to refer to you, you could probably show your boobs and "southern lips" in your avatar and some here would probably still doubt it, question it, and call you a guy. (And, of course, it's fundamentalist Christians who make such fools of themselves)

 

[Enoch07]

How many ancient Middle Eastern Jews were white? As a white woman, would they assume I'm Jewish or a gentile? Plus, the gentiles had lots of gods, so they were hardly "godless", right?

I don't know I wasn't there. But Jews can come in just about any skin color. From pale white to light brown to dark brown. I have seen em all! So its not an issue.

Oh and here ya go. Here is the original Greek meaning of the word gentile. It says nothing of skin color. But alot about godless heatherns!

Strong's Greek: 1484. ἔθνος (ethnos) -- a race, a nation, pl. the nations (as distinct from Isr.)

And yet we call libel, slander, harassment, stalking, etc CRIMES. You don't have to throw a punch to be an evil jerk.

Nope but you can't inadvertently kill someone because you called them a ignorant deragatory name either. Physical violence > "bad words". Honestly the far left remind me of old church ladies fainting because someone said the "f" word oooooh.

Why don't you support our soldiers?

I do. I just have yet to see a single good argument why tax payers should pay for horomone therapy, sexuap reassignment surgery, and cosmetic surgery. Will any of this make them better soldiers? Nope, all it will do is let people enlist get free surgery then drop out. Sign a waiver that they will not go through these procedures until after they have served their contract. Then serve proudly!

True, but do I have to show my boobs in my avatar to make it clearer?

I am sorry. But your b00bs hold no power over me. Although, I did give her my heart and not my eyes so.....

What about Christians and Muslims?

No problem at all. Long as they are legal citizens and abide by the laws of this country. There is nothing inherently evil with either. But the extremists, like any extremist, are an issue.

Hey, we were worshiped early on. You men with your silly nub of a second sex chromosome couldn't stand our feminine superiority.

I love a strong alpha woman who will stare me in the eye then spit in it. She challenges me everyday and makes me a better man. I don't have any time for beta b****es!

Hey, I'm not an evangelical Christian hoping Israel succeeds so Jesus can come down and wipe everyone out. If Israelis think we're their ally, I'd hate to see what they think an enemy is

Nobody has to hope. If the prophecy is true it will come to pass regardless of what anyone does, or does not do. (Pssst Jesus ain't coming back, don't tell anyone I told ya)

Israelis are in the Middle East, too, or are you like Trump and can't seem to tell the difference?

Now you mad cause I told off that Nazi?!?! Man i just can't win today.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Physical violence > "bad words".

As Nazi Germany shows us, the seeds of "bad words" can grow and fester into extreme violence. Even Jesus urged his followers to carefully choose their words, because words have power. The Columbine shooting is another good example of when words fester into violence. Words can start wars, end empires, and undo politicians. They're also bullet proof, bomb proof, and cannot be killed, so, yes, we must be wise in choosing our words and accept our words, once they leave our mouths, have consequences.
Doesn't she look tired?

just have yet to see a single good argument why tax payers should pay for horomone therapy, sexuap reassignment surgery, and cosmetic surgery.

Because when someone is diagnosed with gender dysphoria things like hormone therapy are a medical necessity.
And, because they are fighting to defend your ***, because they gave themselves to our nation, every single need they have should be furnished by the tax payers. Utilities, food, shelter, medical costs, the troops shouldn't have to pay a single cent out of their own pockets for such things. Luke Skywalker type prosthetic (and we are getting close to them) to replace a blown-off arm? Done. No place to call home? Worry no more. Food? Eat like royalty. Medical treatments? Covered.

 

[Enoch07]

As Nazi Germany shows us, the seeds of "bad words" can grow and fester into extreme violence. Even Jesus urged his followers to carefully choose their words, because words have power. The Columbine shooting is another good example of when words fester into violence. Words can start wars, end empires, and undo politicians. They're also bullet proof, bomb proof, and cannot be killed, so, yes, we must be wise in choosing our words and accept our words, once they leave our mouths, have consequences.
Doesn't she look tired?

Because when someone is diagnosed with gender dysphoria things like hormone therapy are a medical necessity.
And, because they are fighting to defend your ***, because they gave themselves to our nation, every single need they have should be furnished by the tax payers. Utilities, food, shelter, medical costs, the troops shouldn't have to pay a single cent out of their own pockets for such things. Luke Skywalker type prosthetic (and we are getting close to them) to replace a blown-off arm? Done. No place to call home? Worry no more. Food? Eat like royalty. Medical treatments? Covered.

What is to stop people from completing basic training, getting surgery/therapy and then dropping out after surgery?

Like I said i am not against trans people serving. I just see a huge loop hole people will take advantage of.

Maybe a contract? Serve 4 years + transition paid for. Or something of the like?