An interesting God, I guess.No, what he was implying is that God wants some people but not others.
What kind of a God would that be?
I for one don't think of that as a flaw.
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An interesting God, I guess.No, what he was implying is that God wants some people but not others.
What kind of a God would that be?
Oh, gosh. Why worry what other people think, period?
I probably should not post this today because I won’t have much time to answer posts after today, till the weekend, unless the posts are short. But I had a heartfelt feeling and I just had to share it.
These ideas for threads often come to me after a day in the trenches reading what people post and then it reaches critical mass when I see Christians arguing about *what the Bible means.* One Christian believes it means x, another one believes it means y, and another one believes it means z. These beliefs are contradictory so any logical person would know that either only one is right and all the others are wrong or they are all wrong.
Of course it usually takes an atheist to parse this out because those believers who *want to believe* something will find a way to interpret the Bible so they can believe what they want to believe. The atheists are right that most belief is emotional, and this pertains more to Christians than to other believers because they are emotionally attached to Jesus. They are also attached to the belief that Jesus is going to return, after which time they will be resurrected and go to heaven or live forever on earth in a Garden of Eden, depending upon which belief they have. All this comes with a guarantee, because they were saved by the blood of Jesus. Who would want to give all that up unless they had a *reason* to give it up?
I cannot comment on other religions because I am not very familiar with them, but most Christians and Jews do not understand that they believe what they do mostly because of religious traditions they came to believe without question. Moreover, human behavior is driven more by emotion than by reason, so unless one makes a concerted effort to think rationally and overcome emotion that will not happen.
Most people do not understand the emotional component of belief because most people do not have an in depth understanding of psychology. I just happen to have a lot of education in psychology and wore that hat much longer than any religion hat. I became a Baha’i based upon logic and reason, not emotion. It just made sense to me. I have no emotional attachment to Baha’u’llah or God. I should love God more but given all the suffering I see in the world that is difficult.
How the hell could any atheist ever figure out which religion is true, or if any religion is true? Just look at all the religions on this forum, and look at all the different beliefs within the same religion. Then there are believers who have no religion at all. How can any atheist be expected to parse this all out? If I was an atheist, I would probably just forget the whole thing, but then I was never very interested in God anyhow.
I do not expect any atheist to figure out which religion is true unless they are really enthusiastic about believing in God, because it would be a near impossible feat. Of course, I think that God would guide them if they were sincere and made the effort, because that is what I believe. That does not mean they would end up believing in the true religion, but it sure would help.
““Whoso maketh efforts for Us,” he shall enjoy the blessings conferred by the words: “In Our Ways shall We assuredly guide him.”” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 266-267
Now I want to post a passage that explains why people are so confused in this new age. Mind you, I do not fully understand what this passage means. For example I do not know why “This “oppression” is the essential feature of every Revelation” or why “the break of the morn of divine guidance must needs follow the darkness of the night of error.” Baha’u’llah’s Writings are often very deep and I am not very mystical, I am an analytical type of person.
“What “oppression” is greater than that which hath been recounted? What “oppression” is more grievous than that a soul seeking the truth, and wishing to attain unto the knowledge of God, should know not where to go for it and from whom to seek it? For opinions have sorely differed, and the ways unto the attainment of God have multiplied. This “oppression” is the essential feature of every Revelation. Unless it cometh to pass, the Sun of Truth will not be made manifest. For the break of the morn of divine guidance must needs follow the darkness of the night of error. For this reason, in all chronicles and traditions reference hath been made unto these things, namely that iniquity shall cover the surface of the earth and darkness shall envelop mankind. As the traditions referred to are well known, and as the purpose of this servant is to be brief, He will refrain from quoting the text of these traditions.” The Kitab-i-Iqan, pp. 31-32
You're right, it's nice to know what to expect from someone. But to pry at it in any depth with a superiourity complex; that's what I'm getting at.Agree to a point, but what people think does influence how people act.
It's one of the key reasons I became interested in religion in the first place.
I was making no accusations at all, I was only making observations.You are makeing several negative accusations here that are rather arrogant.
Assumption that people do not understand emotion, logic and reason for whatever your 'superior' reasoning is.
Assumption that an atheist has not studied religion, i think you will find many atheist have studied several religions to some degree or other, and for various reasons. And are generally far more convenient with various religion than most religious people who are only interested in their own.
Assumption that because atheist gave no belief in god they are inferior to those who believe in bronze age mythology or a volcano or a planet in the night sky
I was making no accusations at all, I was only making observations.
I make no such assumptions that my reasoning is superior to anyone else's.
I only made the observation that Imo many people do not understand why they believe what they do, and that it is based upon emotions. It was atheists who have pointed this out to be.
I made no assumption that atheists have not studied religions or that atheists are ignorant of religions. I am only stating what atheists have posted to others or told me directly, because how else could I know what atheists think? I do not assume what people think, I listen to what they say. They say they are confused about which religion they would pick, if they were to pick any religion, because there are so many religions, each with different beliefs.
Finally, I made no assumption that because atheists gave no belief in god they are inferior to those who believe in bronze age mythology or a volcano or a planet in the night sky, and in fact I was saying the exact opposite of that. I was saying that it makes sense to withhold belief given the religions that have been offered, especially the bronze age religions based upon an ancient text that is so confusing nobody who believes in it can even agree as to what it means. The sad thing is that apparently that is the only religion I hear anyone discussing so I tend to think that is the only one atheists consider a viable option.... but of course I could be wrong, since I do not know what others are thinking, only what they say in posts.
I know what I wrote and what I meant by what I wrote.Either way, you defame on your "observations" which are decidedly incorrect
I suggest you re-read you own post. I am sure you didnt realise how you wrote it but you wrote it
i quote your OP
"Most people do not understand the emotional component of belief because most people do not have an in depth understanding of psychology"
"How the hell could any atheist ever figure out which religion is true, or if any religion is true? "
"I do not expect any atheist to figure out which religion is true unless they are really enthusiastic about believing in God"
So how does it read to you?
I know what I wrote and what I meant by what I wrote.
Those were my observations solely based upon what people say.
I was just trying to put myself in the shoes of an atheist based upon what they say.
They were my heartfelt feelings towards atheists.
I have a right to my feelings.
I probably should not post this today because I won’t have much time to answer posts after today, till the weekend, unless the posts are short. But I had a heartfelt feeling and I just had to share it.
These ideas for threads often come to me after a day in the trenches reading what people post and then it reaches critical mass when I see Christians arguing about *what the Bible means.* One Christian believes it means x, another one believes it means y, and another one believes it means z. These beliefs are contradictory so any logical person would know that either only one is right and all the others are wrong or they are all wrong.
Of course it usually takes an atheist to parse this out because those believers who *want to believe* something will find a way to interpret the Bible so they can believe what they want to believe. The atheists are right that most belief is emotional, and this pertains more to Christians than to other believers because they are emotionally attached to Jesus. They are also attached to the belief that Jesus is going to return, after which time they will be resurrected and go to heaven or live forever on earth in a Garden of Eden, depending upon which belief they have. All this comes with a guarantee, because they were saved by the blood of Jesus. Who would want to give all that up unless they had a *reason* to give it up?
I cannot comment on other religions because I am not very familiar with them, but most Christians and Jews do not understand that they believe what they do mostly because of religious traditions they came to believe without question. Moreover, human behavior is driven more by emotion than by reason, so unless one makes a concerted effort to think rationally and overcome emotion that will not happen.
Most people do not understand the emotional component of belief because most people do not have an in depth understanding of psychology. I just happen to have a lot of education in psychology and wore that hat much longer than any religion hat. I became a Baha’i based upon logic and reason, not emotion. It just made sense to me. I have no emotional attachment to Baha’u’llah or God. I should love God more but given all the suffering I see in the world that is difficult.
How the hell could any atheist ever figure out which religion is true, or if any religion is true? Just look at all the religions on this forum, and look at all the different beliefs within the same religion. Then there are believers who have no religion at all. How can any atheist be expected to parse this all out? If I was an atheist, I would probably just forget the whole thing, but then I was never very interested in God anyhow.
I do not expect any atheist to figure out which religion is true unless they are really enthusiastic about believing in God, because it would be a near impossible feat. Of course, I think that God would guide them if they were sincere and made the effort, because that is what I believe. That does not mean they would end up believing in the true religion, but it sure would help.
““Whoso maketh efforts for Us,” he shall enjoy the blessings conferred by the words: “In Our Ways shall We assuredly guide him.”” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 266-267
Now I want to post a passage that explains why people are so confused in this new age. Mind you, I do not fully understand what this passage means. For example I do not know why “This “oppression” is the essential feature of every Revelation” or why “the break of the morn of divine guidance must needs follow the darkness of the night of error.” Baha’u’llah’s Writings are often very deep and I am not very mystical, I am an analytical type of person.
“What “oppression” is greater than that which hath been recounted? What “oppression” is more grievous than that a soul seeking the truth, and wishing to attain unto the knowledge of God, should know not where to go for it and from whom to seek it? For opinions have sorely differed, and the ways unto the attainment of God have multiplied. This “oppression” is the essential feature of every Revelation. Unless it cometh to pass, the Sun of Truth will not be made manifest. For the break of the morn of divine guidance must needs follow the darkness of the night of error. For this reason, in all chronicles and traditions reference hath been made unto these things, namely that iniquity shall cover the surface of the earth and darkness shall envelop mankind. As the traditions referred to are well known, and as the purpose of this servant is to be brief, He will refrain from quoting the text of these traditions.” The Kitab-i-Iqan, pp. 31-32
Neither need any blessings nor any guidance.““Whoso maketh efforts for Us,” he shall enjoy the blessings conferred by the words: “In Our Ways shall We assuredly guide him.”” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 266-267
An attention-seeker God.It's interesting, though, that there are those who blame God for not being chosen when it's entirely possible that God "chooses" anyone who pays attention (or more accurately, those who pay attention realize it's not "God" that does the choosing).
Isn’t Baha’I essentially based on one man presenting his own argument of what it all means?These ideas for threads often come to me after a day in the trenches reading what people post and then it reaches critical mass when I see Christians arguing about *what the Bible means.*
Atheists don’t all say the same thing beyond the one and only thing which entirely defines the term. Anytime you want to say atheists do something, consider how it would sound to say theists do that thing. If it sounds ridiculously generalised with theists, it is ridiculously generalised with atheists too. There terms are direct opposites and both are rarely relevant or appropriate terms to defined specific groups of people.The atheists are right that…
Why do you assume atheists want or need to figure out which religion is true? Why do you assume atheists can’t already follow a religion they’d presumably already satisfied themselves of the truth of? Are you sure you’re really talking about atheists at all?How the hell could any atheist ever figure out which religion is true, or if any religion is true?
I probably should not post this today because I won’t have much time to answer posts after today, till the weekend, unless the posts are short. But I had a heartfelt feeling and I just had to share it.
These ideas for threads often come to me after a day in the trenches reading what people post and then it reaches critical mass when I see Christians arguing about *what the Bible means.* One Christian believes it means x, another one believes it means y, and another one believes it means z. These beliefs are contradictory so any logical person would know that either only one is right and all the others are wrong or they are all wrong.
Of course it usually takes an atheist to parse this out because those believers who *want to believe* something will find a way to interpret the Bible so they can believe what they want to believe. The atheists are right that most belief is emotional, and this pertains more to Christians than to other believers because they are emotionally attached to Jesus. They are also attached to the belief that Jesus is going to return, after which time they will be resurrected and go to heaven or live forever on earth in a Garden of Eden, depending upon which belief they have. All this comes with a guarantee, because they were saved by the blood of Jesus. Who would want to give all that up unless they had a *reason* to give it up?
I cannot comment on other religions because I am not very familiar with them, but most Christians and Jews do not understand that they believe what they do mostly because of religious traditions they came to believe without question. Moreover, human behavior is driven more by emotion than by reason, so unless one makes a concerted effort to think rationally and overcome emotion that will not happen.
Most people do not understand the emotional component of belief because most people do not have an in depth understanding of psychology. I just happen to have a lot of education in psychology and wore that hat much longer than any religion hat. I became a Baha’i based upon logic and reason, not emotion. It just made sense to me. I have no emotional attachment to Baha’u’llah or God. I should love God more but given all the suffering I see in the world that is difficult.
How the hell could any atheist ever figure out which religion is true, or if any religion is true? Just look at all the religions on this forum, and look at all the different beliefs within the same religion. Then there are believers who have no religion at all. How can any atheist be expected to parse this all out? If I was an atheist, I would probably just forget the whole thing, but then I was never very interested in God anyhow.
I do not expect any atheist to figure out which religion is true unless they are really enthusiastic about believing in God, because it would be a near impossible feat. Of course, I think that God would guide them if they were sincere and made the effort, because that is what I believe. That does not mean they would end up believing in the true religion, but it sure would help.
““Whoso maketh efforts for Us,” he shall enjoy the blessings conferred by the words: “In Our Ways shall We assuredly guide him.”” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 266-267
Now I want to post a passage that explains why people are so confused in this new age. Mind you, I do not fully understand what this passage means. For example I do not know why “This “oppression” is the essential feature of every Revelation” or why “the break of the morn of divine guidance must needs follow the darkness of the night of error.” Baha’u’llah’s Writings are often very deep and I am not very mystical, I am an analytical type of person.
“What “oppression” is greater than that which hath been recounted? What “oppression” is more grievous than that a soul seeking the truth, and wishing to attain unto the knowledge of God, should know not where to go for it and from whom to seek it? For opinions have sorely differed, and the ways unto the attainment of God have multiplied. This “oppression” is the essential feature of every Revelation. Unless it cometh to pass, the Sun of Truth will not be made manifest. For the break of the morn of divine guidance must needs follow the darkness of the night of error. For this reason, in all chronicles and traditions reference hath been made unto these things, namely that iniquity shall cover the surface of the earth and darkness shall envelop mankind. As the traditions referred to are well known, and as the purpose of this servant is to be brief, He will refrain from quoting the text of these traditions.” The Kitab-i-Iqan, pp. 31-32
I probably should not post this today because I won’t have much time to answer posts after today, till the weekend, unless the posts are short. But I had a heartfelt feeling and I just had to share it.
These ideas for threads often come to me after a day in the trenches reading what people post and then it reaches critical mass when I see Christians arguing about *what the Bible means.* One Christian believes it means x, another one believes it means y, and another one believes it means z. These beliefs are contradictory so any logical person would know that either only one is right and all the others are wrong or they are all wrong.
Of course it usually takes an atheist to parse this out because those believers who *want to believe* something will find a way to interpret the Bible so they can believe what they want to believe. The atheists are right that most belief is emotional, and this pertains more to Christians than to other believers because they are emotionally attached to Jesus. They are also attached to the belief that Jesus is going to return, after which time they will be resurrected and go to heaven or live forever on earth in a Garden of Eden, depending upon which belief they have. All this comes with a guarantee, because they were saved by the blood of Jesus. Who would want to give all that up unless they had a *reason* to give it up?
I cannot comment on other religions because I am not very familiar with them, but most Christians and Jews do not understand that they believe what they do mostly because of religious traditions they came to believe without question. Moreover, human behavior is driven more by emotion than by reason, so unless one makes a concerted effort to think rationally and overcome emotion that will not happen.
Most people do not understand the emotional component of belief because most people do not have an in depth understanding of psychology. I just happen to have a lot of education in psychology and wore that hat much longer than any religion hat. I became a Baha’i based upon logic and reason, not emotion. It just made sense to me. I have no emotional attachment to Baha’u’llah or God. I should love God more but given all the suffering I see in the world that is difficult.
How the hell could any atheist ever figure out which religion is true, or if any religion is true? Just look at all the religions on this forum, and look at all the different beliefs within the same religion. Then there are believers who have no religion at all. How can any atheist be expected to parse this all out? If I was an atheist, I would probably just forget the whole thing, but then I was never very interested in God anyhow.
I do not expect any atheist to figure out which religion is true unless they are really enthusiastic about believing in God, because it would be a near impossible feat. Of course, I think that God would guide them if they were sincere and made the effort, because that is what I believe. That does not mean they would end up believing in the true religion, but it sure would help.
““Whoso maketh efforts for Us,” he shall enjoy the blessings conferred by the words: “In Our Ways shall We assuredly guide him.”” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 266-267
Now I want to post a passage that explains why people are so confused in this new age. Mind you, I do not fully understand what this passage means. For example I do not know why “This “oppression” is the essential feature of every Revelation” or why “the break of the morn of divine guidance must needs follow the darkness of the night of error.” Baha’u’llah’s Writings are often very deep and I am not very mystical, I am an analytical type of person.
“What “oppression” is greater than that which hath been recounted? What “oppression” is more grievous than that a soul seeking the truth, and wishing to attain unto the knowledge of God, should know not where to go for it and from whom to seek it? For opinions have sorely differed, and the ways unto the attainment of God have multiplied. This “oppression” is the essential feature of every Revelation. Unless it cometh to pass, the Sun of Truth will not be made manifest. For the break of the morn of divine guidance must needs follow the darkness of the night of error. For this reason, in all chronicles and traditions reference hath been made unto these things, namely that iniquity shall cover the surface of the earth and darkness shall envelop mankind. As the traditions referred to are well known, and as the purpose of this servant is to be brief, He will refrain from quoting the text of these traditions.” The Kitab-i-Iqan, pp. 31-32
Ah! A post with no quote from Bahaullah family!I was making no accusations at all, I was only making observations.
What about those of us who couldn't care less what God chooses in any circumstance unless the effects of His choices can actually be demonstrated to:It's interesting, though, that there are those who blame God for not being chosen when it's entirely possible that God "chooses" anyone who pays attention (or more accurately, those who pay attention realize it's not "God" that does the choosing).
Which may be that atheism is more in touch with God than all the religions that claim they are the truth to the exclusion of all other perspectives. Have you ever considered that atheism may be more spiritually awake than most religions?I think it would be more accurate to say that God guides those who He knows will be guide-able.
I would never blame an atheist for not believing because the Bible teaches that God calls those who He wants. This implies that He does NOT call everyone. Atheists are those God has not called. It is not thier fault.
As I touched on in my previous post, all beliefs are subjectively held, be they beliefs in a theistic reality, or beliefs in a non-theistic reality. They are still both beliefs about reality, with a different colored sky is all. They are both held individually, which makes them subjective, regardless of the degree of corroborating support they have, anywhere from 0% to 100%.Of course it usually takes an atheist to parse this out because those believers who *want to believe* something will find a way to interpret the Bible so they can believe what they want to believe. The atheists are right that most belief is emotional, and this pertains more to Christians than to other believers because they are emotionally attached to Jesus.
Not all Christians believe all that is literally true. A great many understand them as metaphors for spiritual truths, not literal places, or literal blood sacrifices to appease a god's literal anger and such. Many understand those as spiritual truths spoken through the vehicle of cultural mythologies, that don't need to be taken literally.They are also attached to the belief that Jesus is going to return, after which time they will be resurrected and go to heaven or live forever on earth in a Garden of Eden, depending upon which belief they have. All this comes with a guarantee, because they were saved by the blood of Jesus. Who would want to give all that up unless they had a *reason* to give it up?
Most people, yourself included, do not thoroughly investigate everything they are told. We would get nowhere in life if we had to rationally dissect everything we were told as a truth. We all adopt the perspectives of the larger group, unless we have a need due to some conflict, to critically examine something. All you are describing is not "overcoming emotion", but rather challenging the framework. The emotion is still there, just invested in resolving a conflict. You don't "get rid of the emotion", you redirect it.I cannot comment on other religions because I am not very familiar with them, but most Christians and Jews do not understand that they believe what they do mostly because of religious traditions they came to believe without question. Moreover, human behavior is driven more by emotion than by reason, so unless one makes a concerted effort to think rationally and overcome emotion that will not happen.
I would simplify that to say, most people are not motivated enough to do the hard work of developing self-awareness, to where we question reality as it has been programmed for us through culture. Very few see the man behind the curtain, as it were.Most people do not understand the emotional component of belief because most people do not have an in depth understanding of psychology.
Nonsense. I do not believe this. I do not believe it either when an atheist says they followed logic and reason and that is what led them to reject religion. No. That is what it may "seem", if we ignore emotional motivations. However logically, let's' examine this.I just happen to have a lot of education in psychology and wore that hat much longer than any religion hat. I became a Baha’i based upon logic and reason, not emotion. It just made sense to me.
Surely, you have some emotional reward for believing what you are. If not, then why bother?I have no emotional attachment to Baha’u’llah or God. I should love God more but given all the suffering I see in the world that is difficult.
By following their heart. And to make it clear, it is figuring out what it truth for them. There is no "true religion" objectively outside subjective emotional truth. To me, your religion fails to meet the need, so it is not "true" for me, or any others it doesn't speak truth to. It speaks truth to you in some way. From a purely logical argument, it does not stand the test of a dispassionate examination. No religion does. Nor does atheism either.How the hell could any atheist ever figure out which religion is true, or if any religion is true?
If they are aware enough about the nature of truth and relativism. If they are, then they don't need to figure out which one is "right", because such criteria is an illusion to begin with.Just look at all the religions on this forum, and look at all the different beliefs within the same religion. Then there are believers who have no religion at all. How can any atheist be expected to parse this all out?
Which then begs the question, why did you join a religion? I think there are things about yourself you may not really be in touch with if you think you were not motivated by some need to believe in God. Unless, you're just in it purely for the aesthetics, and are effectively an atheist?If I was an atheist, I would probably just forget the whole thing, but then I was never very interested in God anyhow.