I can prove that an omnipotent God wants some people to be gay

[Jainarayan]

Do you ever ask yourself why? Is it rational?

How plausible is it that God didn't say it, but rather it was Moses expressing a personal opinion and attributing it to God?
Tom

That leads me to a theory about why the Abrahamic religions are so rigid and control-oriented, while other religions are more open to questioning, thinking, challenging. I think it stems from the harsh and dangerous desert environment... "Father knows best" sort of thing.

 

[lostwanderingsoul]

So should they? That's a benevolent God, one worth following and worshiping? No, that's something we call a rakshasa or asura, an evil being ("demon" to western religion followers) at odds and in conflict with the Gods. Rather, I suspect he's simply been slandered and been made a pawn by people through the millennia who want to have it their way.

Every society must have laws and punishment for those who break those laws. Do you call the police rakshasa for enforcing the law? Why should god be evil for punishing people who break his laws?

 

[columbus]

That leads me to a theory about why the Abrahamic religions are so rigid and control-oriented, while other religions are more open to questioning, thinking, challenging. I think it stems from the harsh and dangerous desert environment... "Father knows best" sort of thing.

Also, all the big ones were designed for the purposes of a warlord.
Moses, Constantine, Muhammad, people who want to control others want the sort of authoritarian God image that all those religions have.
Tom

 

[Jainarayan]

Every society must have laws and punishment for those who break those laws. Do you call the police rakshasa for enforcing the law? Why should god be evil for punishing people who break his laws?

Not a good analogy at all. Society does have laws that protect its members. God is not needed for that. Societies and cultures with no knowledge of that God have very similar laws. The laws in the Bible that are what we consider "civil" or societal laws are a direct descendant of Mesopotamian laws, the Code of Hammurabi, specifically. Why did Hammurabi institute these same laws Moses was later allegedly given by God? Hammurabi was a faster gunslinger than God, apparently. Moreover, how do you equate two men having sex and premeditated murder both earning the death penalty?

 

[WalterTrull]

To know the mind of God. Wouldn't that be cool?
What I do know is "...thy will be done in earth..."
Shedding Ptolemaic thinking is tough. Ah. but: "thy kingdom come..."

 

[columbus]

if God refuses to give people the gift of heterosexuality when they asked him and beg him for it, that is because God wants them to be gay because he could effortlessly make them straight. Therefore I just proved my point.

Unless of course, The Creator of Everything that Matters doesn't want anything.
At all.

That's the way I see it. I believe in God, I don't believe God cares about anything.
Tom

 

[lostwanderingsoul]

Not a good analogy at all. Society does have laws that protect its members. God is not needed for that. Societies and cultures with no knowledge of that God have very similar laws. The laws in the Bible that are what we consider "civil" or societal laws are a direct descendant of Mesopotamian laws, the Code of Hammurabi, specifically. Why did Hammurabi institute these same laws Moses was later allegedly given by God? Hammurabi was a faster gunslinger than God, apparently. Moreover, how do you equate two men having sex and premeditated murder both earning the death penalty?

I can only go by what God says. The wages of sin is death. Any sin. All are punishable by death. Fair? Only God can say.

 

[lostwanderingsoul]

Unless of course, The Creator of Everything that Matters doesn't want anything.
At all.

That's the way I see it. I believe in God, I don't believe God cares about anything.
Tom

A lot of parents do not care about their children. We call them bad parents. God cares about everyone and everything.

 

[columbus]

I can only go by what God says. The wages of sin is death. Any sin. All are punishable by death. Fair? Only God can say.

Except God doesn't say.
It's always some fallible human being claiming to be God's Official Spokesman saying it.
Like you.
Tom

 

[columbus]

A lot of parents do not care about their children. We call them bad parents. God cares about everyone and everything.

As usual.
A fallible human claims to know more about God than I do, without explaining why I should accept their authority.
Tom

 

[Nakosis]

if I were God and I wanted everyone to be hetrosexual and I hated homosexuality then I could make them hetrosexual and give them heterosexuality.

I knew a gay Christian who wanted with all of his heart to be heterosexual and prayed and begged God for that gift ...in fact I've known multiple of them.

God left them gay, and if I were God I would have granted them heterosexuality.

Therefore, God wants them to be gay and that is obvious. And as far as I'm concerned, what is obvious and cannot be refuted is proof.

Or, there is no God in which case neither we nor they themselves should be judging by religious standards.

 

[Jainarayan]

The wages of sin is death

God never said that.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

That leads me to a theory about why the Abrahamic religions are so rigid and control-oriented, while other religions are more open to questioning, thinking, challenging. I think it stems from the harsh and dangerous desert environment... "Father knows best" sort of thing.

That's a pretty one-dimensional view of Abrahamic religions, which are extremely diverse in their interpretation. Israel isn't mostly desert and there's other deserts around the view where the local cultures are quite different from each other.

 

[Jainarayan]

That's a pretty one-dimensional view of Abrahamic religions

Not at their inception, and actually not much has changed, except that maybe Christianity and Islam have regressed. Ironically, Judaism is probably more progressive in its thinking than either Christianity or Islam. At their inception they were born of tribal nomads who relied on herding for sustenance and had to wage war for their survival. What is now Israel did have a rainy/dry seasonal cycle but the technology for irrigation and farming was not extensive in the time of Moses. So yeah, it was a harsh environment that required tight control of the society for its survival. Virtually every one of the 633 (+/-) Levitical laws had something to do with keeping the society intact and insular.

Leviticus 19:19
You are to keep My statutes. You shall not crossbreed two different kinds of livestock; you shall not sow your fields with two kinds of seed; and you shall not wear clothing made of two kinds of material.

Leviticus 20:13
If a man lies with a man as with a woman, they have both committed an abomination. They must surely be put to death; their blood is upon them.

Deuteronomy 22:5
A woman must not wear men’s clothing, and a man must not wear women’s clothing, for whoever does these things is detestable to the LORD your God (and here, ladies and gentlemen, children of all ages, is why we have trans-bashing! God said so! In 2019, cross-dressing is detestable why?).

Deuteronomy 22:22
If a man is found lying with another man’s wife, both the man who slept with her and the woman must die. You must purge the evil from Israel.

Seriously? All this is relevant to today, how? Leviticus, Corinthians and Romans have been used for two millennia to persecute, punish, kill homosexuals. And the fight still rages.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Not at their inception, and actually not much has changed, except that maybe Christianity and Islam have regressed. Ironically, Judaism is probably more progressive in its thinking than either Christianity or Islam. At their inception they were born of tribal nomads who relied on herding for sustenance and had to wage war for their survival. What is now Israel did have a rainy/dry seasonal cycle but the technology for irrigation and farming was not extensive in the time of Moses. So yeah, it was a harsh environment that required tight control of the society for its survival. Virtually every one of the 633 (+/-) Levitical laws had something to do with keeping the society intact and insular.

Leviticus 19:19
You are to keep My statutes. You shall not crossbreed two different kinds of livestock; you shall not sow your fields with two kinds of seed; and you shall not wear clothing made of two kinds of material.

Leviticus 20:13
If a man lies with a man as with a woman, they have both committed an abomination. They must surely be put to death; their blood is upon them.

Deuteronomy 22:5
A woman must not wear men’s clothing, and a man must not wear women’s clothing, for whoever does these things is detestable to the LORD your God (and here, ladies and gentlemen, children of all ages, is why we have trans-bashing! God said so! In 2019, cross-dressing is detestable why?).

Deuteronomy 22:22
If a man is found lying with another man’s wife, both the man who slept with her and the woman must die. You must purge the evil from Israel.

Seriously? All this is relevant to today, how? Leviticus, Corinthians and Romans have been used for two millennia to persecute, punish, kill homosexuals. And the fight still rages.

Do you live in the South with a bunch of Southern Baptists? Probably most of the churches in my city are moderate or liberal leaning. There's some conservative churches but those are more in the suburbs. I just think you have a skewed idea about Christianity in general. A large percentage of LGBT people hereare Christians, too.

Deteuronomy and Leviticus are old tribal and priestly laws not applicable to us today, no. Although Jews expect them to be reimplemented in the Messianic Age.

 

[Jainarayan]

Do you live in the South with a bunch of Southern Baptists? Probably most of the churches in my city are moderate or liberal leaning. There's some conservative churches but those are more in the suburbs. I just think you have a skewed idea about Christianity in general. A large percentage of LGBT people hereare Christians, too.

Moderate or liberal leaning is not what I would call the Roman Catholic or Eastern Orthodox Churches, especially in private personal matters. There's precious few, if any, Orthodox or Catholic priests or Protestant ministers that will give a gay person communion. Oh sure, you can lie to an Orthodox or Catholic priest but that's a sin in itself. As is artificial birth control. That people use it anyway doesn't take away from the fact that the RCC considers it a mortal sin and a defiance of church law.

Deteuronomy and Leviticus are old tribal and priestly laws not applicable to us today, no. Although Jews expect them to be reimplemented in the Messianic Age.

They never were applicable to non-Israelites, but they're used anyway as leverage against "us". And you know who the "us" is.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Moderate or liberal leaning is not what I would call the Roman Catholic or Eastern Orthodox Churches, especially in private personal matters. There's precious few, if any, Orthodox or Catholic priests or Protestant ministers that will give a gay person communion. Oh sure, you can lie to an Orthodox or Catholic priest but that's a sin in itself. As is artificial birth control. That people use it anyway doesn't take away from the fact that the RCC considers it a mortal sin and a defiance of church law.



They never were applicable to non-Israelites, but they're used anyway as leverage against "us". And you know who the "us" is.

I know what you mean, but there's some Catholic clergy who are LGBT friendly and even some parishes. I hear the one on campus here is pretty welcoming when it comes to that. Don't know about Orthodox clergy, though, since I have no experience with them. I do get what you mean since that's one of the reasons why I'll probably just go to an Episcopal church.

 

[Jainarayan]

I know what you mean, but there's some Catholic clergy who are LGBT friendly and even some parishes. I hear the one on campus here is pretty welcoming when it comes to that. Don't know about Orthodox clergy, though, since I have no experience with them. I do get what you mean since that's one of the reasons why I'll probably just go to an Episcopal church.

I think it's great there are Catholic clergy that are so open and welcoming. I'm not sure if they go as far as giving communion. They are doing what they (and I) think is right, but by church doctrine they really don't have the freedom to do that.

This is speculation, but I'd say if they are giving communion to openly gay parishioners, someone else is bound to alert the bishop. The bishop is then duty-bound to chew the priest a new one.

The only real difference as I saw it, having been Catholic then Orthodox is that the OC has a more mystical tradition. Other than that their policies are not very different when it comes to sex.

 

[InChrist]

People presume to know what an infinite being wants literally ALL THE TIME.
They frame laws, social conventions and cultural norms around this 'knowledge'.

You can disagree with his take, that's fine. But it's a little rich hearing a Christian chide someone for presuming to know the mind of God.

According to the scriptures, God’s will and what He wants is revealed to those who repent, receive forgiveness in Christ and have their minds renewed.

For “who has known the mind of Christ that he may instruct him?” But we have the mind of Christ.

1 Corinthians 2:6

 

[lewisnotmiller]

According to the scriptures, God’s will and what He wants is revealed to those who repent, receive forgiveness in Christ and have their minds renewed.

For “who has known the mind of Christ that he may instruct him?” But we have the mind of Christ.

1 Corinthians 2:6

So...you know the mind of God because of scripture. Is that your premise?