Human Sexuality and So-Called "Holy Men"

[Saint Frankenstein]

Compare the lifestyle above with say the Amish culture. While it is true that often Amish teens quit the religion and are allowed to by their religion (to go wild and become prostitutes, then return to the religion). Mostly those who adhere to their religion (or go wild then come back) are good upstanding citizens. Although the Amish life is a bit stoic for most to endure.

The Amish have a big inbreeding problem. Also, their paranoia and tight-knit isolation from the outside world has led to a huge problem of domestic violence, sexual abuse and rape going unreported since they're taught to avoid outside authority. So that lifestyle ain't all it's cracked up to be.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

What? You're not above taking a wholly gratuitous jab at "holy men"? I'm shocked!

To point out the obvious, yes, you speak truth. To point out the equally obvious, your statements in this context are off-topic non-sequiturs, to say nothing of having been done to death over a period of years. But don't let that stop you. RF is all about repetition. We're trying to kill each other with boredom. That's got to be it.

At issue is whether someone can be considered genuinely holy who denies human sexuality, beauty, etc. In a larger sense, what it means to be 'holy'. That some so-called holy men are sexual predators is a truth, but an irrelevant one.

Then in that case, I would have to answer that, no, one who denies human sexuality cannot be genuinely "holy," because they are denying an important part of what makes us what we truly are. Even if we take "holiness" to mean "devoted completely to the deity or the work of the deity," that would still be true, since sexuality is manifestly a part of that work.

 

[A Vestigial Mote]

Does my rejecting drinking beer because my drinking a half of a beer will give me a headache that lasts 3 days equate to rejecting life?

I find beer absolutely disgusting. It is a putrid substance that I do not let pass my lips. I reject beer specifically because I see it as a bane to living a good life.

In other words... like or dislike of all of this crap is subjective. No one "write the rules" or can claim that any one person isn't "living their life to the fullest" just because they don't do "X." The only problems come in when you reject "X" for some reason of social-acceptance, but secretly desire "X." If "X" doesn't involve anyone getting hurt, then rejection of it is very possibly stupidity at work (given the case of actually desiring it anyway), in my opinion.

 

[crossfire]

I find beer absolutely disgusting. It is a putrid substance that I do not let pass my lips. I reject beer specifically because I see it as a bane to living a good life.

In other words... like or dislike of all of this crap is subjective. No one "write the rules" or can claim that any one person isn't "living their life to the fullest" just because they don't do "X." The only problems come in when you reject "X" for some reason of social-acceptance, but secretly desire "X." If "X" doesn't involve anyone getting hurt, then rejection of it is very possibly stupidity at work, in my opinion.

I completely agree.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

I find beer absolutely disgusting. It is a putrid substance that I do not let pass my lips. I reject beer specifically because I see it as a bane to living a good life.

More for me, then.

 

[A Vestigial Mote]

More for me, then.

Have at it.

 

[amorphous_constellation]

Honestly, many of them were pretty much insane from the ascetic practices they would inflict on themselves. This is especially true for early Christian patriarchs but harsh ascetic practices were common through the Middle Ages and somewhat until today.

And yet, a problem is that modern society probably will have to switch to 'game b' eventually, and to my perception, game b is going to entail more self-denial, at least at first. I don't really see a future in which we can all just infinitely and exponentially replicate, and monasticism is a method that the west experimented with and lost. Its original emergence in england, if I read bede correctly, seems to be a reaction to a resource paucity issue. I don't write any of this as a strong advocate of the thing, but more in a pragmatic consideration to where we are now: 8 billion strong in the blink of an eye over the past couple hundred years, and with diminishing resources. So do you really think that great measures or methods of self-denial can be implemented without inviting madness?

I read one thesis where the caves of the cavemen, for example, were the original self-deprivation tanks. Lone forays into the wilderness seem pandemically typical of the original priest - figures in general anthropology, do they not? In addition, I have recently been listening to some lectures by Wim Hof, who seems to benefit from a rather peculiar form of self-flagellation, and perhaps that connects to what Roman writers said about the Germanic peoples - how they oddly went without much clothing, despite the cold. Win Hof's term to describe his practice is that it is a form of 'hormesis,' and one can see how this might be a cousin to the monastic impulse. I don't advocate for any of this however, for I don't know if it is real. But the general idea seems to be that self - denial can somehow produce an inverse effect in which power is gained?

 

[74x12]

Throughout the world, so-called holy men have maintained that to look at a woman is something totally wrong: they say you cannot come near to God if you indulge in sex, therefore they push it aside although they are eaten up with it. But by denying sexuality they put out their eyes and cut out their tongues for they deny the whole beauty of the earth. They have starved their hearts and minds; they are dehydrated human beings; they have banished beauty because beauty is associated with woman.

-- Jiddu Krishnamurti, On Love​

ATTENTION RFers! Your consistently well-considered, astute, and insightful comments please!

I'm assuming you mean religions that forbid holy men from marrying. I agree that religions which forbid holy men like catholic priests to marry are really wrong about that. I think that some men have no problem being unmarried but for others it's not so good. This is funny but ... it's good for a lot of men to enjoy the beauty of a woman.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

And yet, a problem is that modern society probably will have to switch to 'game b' eventually, and to my perception, game b is going to entail more self-denial, at least at first. I don't really see a future in which we can all just infinitely and exponentially replicate, and monasticism is a method that the west experimented with and lost. Its original emergence in england, if I read bede correctly, seems to be a reaction to a resource paucity issue. I don't write any of this as a strong advocate of the thing, but more in a pragmatic consideration to where we are now: 8 billion strong in the blink of an eye over the past couple hundred years, and with diminishing resources. So do you really think that great measures or methods of self-denial can be implemented without inviting madness?

I read one thesis where the caves of the cavemen, for example, were the original self-deprivation tanks. Lone forays into the wilderness seem pandemically typical of the original priest - figures in general anthropology, do they not? In addition, I have recently been listening to some lectures by Wim Hof, who seems to benefit from a rather peculiar form of self-flagellation, and perhaps that connects to what Roman writers said about the Germanic peoples - how they oddly went without much clothing, despite the cold. Win Hof's term to describe his practice is that it is a form of 'hormesis,' and one can see how this might be a cousin to the monastic impulse. I don't advocate for any of this however, for I don't know if it is real. But the general idea seems to be that self - denial can somehow produce an inverse effect in which power is gained?

If you're talking about the future, we're not going to become a bunch of celibate monks to stave off overpopulation. I find that to be very low on the list of possible futures. We're more likely to become zombies in front of a screen or hologram that makes all our desires and impulses come true in virtual reality, which will lower birth rates on its own as we're already seeing our screen addicted society destroy in-person socializing.

What you mention from the last part of your post seems to deal with shamanic practices. Traditional shamanic initiation and practices generally involve being seperated or isolated for a period of time, especially in the wilderness. Going through some sort of ordeal was seen to open people up to the other worlds, generally. I can't comment on that Wim Hof person as I've never heard of them. The Germanic people you mentioned were likely warriors like berserkers, who did engage in shamanic practices to summon their totem animal to posses them during battle, especially the wolf and bear (the Aztecs did the same with their eagle and jaguar warriors who were their equivalent of a feared military elite).

 

[PruePhillip]

Throughout the world, so-called holy men have maintained that to look at a woman is something totally wrong: they say you cannot come near to God if you indulge in sex, therefore they push it aside although they are eaten up with it. But by denying sexuality they put out their eyes and cut out their tongues for they deny the whole beauty of the earth. They have starved their hearts and minds; they are dehydrated human beings; they have banished beauty because beauty is associated with woman.

-- Jiddu Krishnamurti, On Love​

ATTENTION RFers! Your consistently well-considered, astute, and insightful comments please!

Beauty in a woman is a wonderful thing to behold. But now beauty has morphed into everything from
children's beauty pageants to outright porn and sexualizing of women.
In Christianity (as we read of in the NT) we don't see beauty or sex as wicked, only in how it is done.
A pretty girl is there for all to appreciate (how can you NOT?) but the idolatry of the human body, the
sexualizing, the unwanted attention, the power politics of beauty, the lack of modesty and so on are
warnings there are limits.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

children's beauty pageants to outright porn and sexualizing of women.

I don't get how you jump from child pageants to sex and porn. The only people who view child pageants as an excuse to "admire beauty" and girls are pedophiles, really. Most people appear to be creeped out by them.

 

[PruePhillip]

I don't get how you jump from child pageants to sex and porn. The only people who view child pageants as an excuse to "admire beauty" and girls are pedophiles, really. Most people appear to be creeped out by them.

It's interesting. Child beauty pageants were controversial about 20 years ago, but this
proved to be a mere storm-in-a-teacup. Some outspoken critics, including church people,
sociologists and feminists were told to butt out - child beauty pageants are simply no-harm
entertainment. But no-good entertainment too, one must concede.
The issues are numerous but two come to mind - the idea of sexual beauty as an end in
itself, and the growing sexualization of young girls.
All this fits in with my Gallop Poll figures below.

 

[amorphous_constellation]

We're more likely to become zombies in front of a screen or hologram that makes all our desires and impulses come true in virtual reality, which will lower birth rates on its own as we're already seeing our screen addicted society destroy in-person socializing.

I guess that might sort of be what I was getting at anyway.. that maybe with virtual reality, and with phone screens, it's already become a sort neo - monastic activity

 

[joelr]

Moderation in all things.

God said "go forth and multiply." The Catholics misinterpreted that as "have as many babies as possible." That leads to unattended babies and overpopulation, and God is not an idiot. Rather, "go forth and multiply" (which was said when Adam and Eve were kicked out of Eden for tasting the forbidden fruit of knowledge, and, for the first time, found themselves ashamed of their nudity, means don't be ashamed of having sex with your mate.

Men and women were made for mating. Although, I think that the forbidden fruit of knowledge in Eden was carnal knowledge (that is, the knowledge of mating). But that begs the question why God made men and women with organs capable of mating, then told them not to mate in Eden. It seems as though God put temptation in their way. So, it was not just the snake who tempted them, God also tempted them, then punished them for indulging in that temptation.

While normal sex and normal temptation is a fact of life around us, there are some around us who practice far worse (torture, bondage (sometimes not consensual), and mutilation). Sometimes sexual organs are tied off (sadism), and often under-aged minors find themselves bound, gagged, with their sexual organs strangled to the point of gangrene and amputation (or death). Sometimes their captors prefer murder and burial in a field rather than getting caught or paying for sexual favors.

Drugs are at the root of much of prostitution. Drug pushers pretend to be good and generous friends who give free addicting narcotics to those whom they want to control. Sometimes those are also laced with date-rape drugs to make their innocent victims do things that they ordinarily would not do. They soon find themselves addicted, and the free narcotics is now very expensive. Some burglarize to earn the money, while others sell their bodies to multiple elderly sex partners to earn the cash to get through another drug crazed night. Burned out, drinking booze out of a bottle in a paper bag on skid row (or similar location), these former drug addicts and prostitutes constitute a far number of the homeless. Their own families refuse to take them back because they victimize their own families.

Horrible child rapists, then run free, their addicted victims, too scared to turn them in. Some 12 year old girls, too addicted to stay out of prison and too addicted to keep their kids after being arrested, still have the maternal instinct, and still love their kids (or unborn kids), so they tread lightly around their drug addict boyfriends (who also sexually abuse them), for fear that they will lose their babies and their freedom (locked in the local constabulary).

Compare the lifestyle above with say the Amish culture. While it is true that often Amish teens quit the religion and are allowed to by their religion (to go wild and become prostitutes, then return to the religion). Mostly those who adhere to their religion (or go wild then come back) are good upstanding citizens. Although the Amish life is a bit stoic for most to endure.

There are religions that are not as extreme, and if the precepts of those religions are followed, the followers lead normal and happy lives.

I think that the goal should be to stay with a spouse, though almost impossible in today's serially monogamous society. It would be nice to have a quiet home in a quiet neighborhood, with a white picket fence, and good and caring neighbors who live a similar life.

Knowing what God wants, and following God are two different things. After all, there are Satan spewing preachers, like Reverend John Hagee, who tell us to pray to Jesus to help us win a war in Iraq. They don't have a clue about God's requirements. In Revelation, God ordered that we must not attack Iraq, and said "thou shalt not kill" and "thou must not bear false witness against thy neighbor" (remember the playing cards that W. Bush made calling their so-called enemy the doctor of death). God told us to turn the other cheek. So, we know what God wanted us to do, but few followed God when things got difficult (911 attack). Faith was lost....supplanted by greed and fear.

According to OT professor Stravopolou the forbidden fruit is of knowledge of good and bad. But not sex. They were already having sex, how else would they multiply?
The Israelites writing these stories (taken mostly from the Mesopotamian creation stories, also with floods and gardens of Eden) were not overly concerned with sex being some immoral act. Christians get the anti-sex stuff from Paul who believed Jesus was returning any time soon so he didn't see a point in having sex. Obviously the savior did not return but his uptight words on sex and women remained. Paul was not a fan of sex in his letters and also said women should remain submissive and not speak in church.

 

[Glaurung]

If I would posit a fundamental claim to asceticism, it is not that the carnal world as such is an evil but that it is not the greatest good. The ascetic seeks a spiritual reality and the common intuition of mankind suggests that in the seeking of this higher reality there is a necessary letting go of our baser, more animal inclinations. I call it a common intuition because the basic idea that there is an incongruence between sexuality and spirituality is found throughout the world. it is hardly an idea unique to any one religion or culture.

I don't think it is credible to claim that the ascetic impulse (so common to the human experience) is motivated by little more than an aversion to women. Krishnamurti fails to mention here that the ascetic path is not exclusive to men.

 

[Marcion]

Both Buddha and Jesus instructed their followers to rigorously keep a check on their senses in order to keep a pure mind. Sexuality is a very tricky force that is very hard to keep under control since it has been with us for many thousands of animal and human lives.

Especially for men, the loss of too much semen is detrimental to spiritual practices (as well as health). So that kind of advise from holy men like Jesus and Buddha is very useful for serious spiritual aspirants.

it has nothing to do with women perse, for a female heterosexual (or gay male) spiritual aspirant it is good advice to not focus her senses on men (unless the man is her/his husband).

 

[Guitar's Cry]

I would be curious to know what a sex-inclusive Church would look like.

They are around. I used to attend a UU church that was affirming of all sexualities without debasing human sexuality as a sin. It felt like...a church.