Human Sexuality and So-Called "Holy Men"

[Sunstone]

Throughout the world, so-called holy men have maintained that to look at a woman is something totally wrong: they say you cannot come near to God if you indulge in sex, therefore they push it aside although they are eaten up with it. But by denying sexuality they put out their eyes and cut out their tongues for they deny the whole beauty of the earth. They have starved their hearts and minds; they are dehydrated human beings; they have banished beauty because beauty is associated with woman.

-- Jiddu Krishnamurti, On Love​

ATTENTION RFers! Your consistently well-considered, astute, and insightful comments please!

 

[beenherebeforeagain]

I notice that they also tend to downplay the beauty of men, as well...

 

[Cooky]

I would be curious to know what a sex-inclusive Church would look like.

 

[crossfire]

Voluntary celibacy rocks, imo. It doesn't make me a "holy" person. I felt "dehydrated" (as Krishnamurti put it) when I was married.
All people are different. Some will thrive in situations where others will not thrive.

 

[stvdv]

Throughout the world, so-called holy men have maintained that to look at a woman is something totally wrong: they say you cannot come near to God if you indulge in sex, therefore they push it aside although they are eaten up with it. But by denying sexuality they put out their eyes and cut out their tongues for they deny the whole beauty of the earth. They have starved their hearts and minds; they are dehydrated human beings; they have banished beauty because beauty is associated with woman.

The word "So called holy men" says it all. They are not "holy men". Holy men of course are much more specific then the "so called" ones

 

[crossfire]

A little background on the use of the word "holy" from a Buddhist perspective: the holy life means withdrawing from the secular life of being a householder, getting married, getting involved in politics, etc. (The separation of the sacred from the profane being the hallmark of religion.) Buddhist monks won't perform weddings because it is a secular thing.

 

[Sunstone]

I think Krishnamurti has a good point. Maybe it's just a matter of taste, but I can't bring myself to think of someone as 'holy' who rejects life, and to me, to reject sexuality, beauty, etc. begs the questions of "why?" and "Where do you stop?" Put differently, it seems to be a senseless rejection of the world and of life.

 

[Vinayaka]

The life of the monastic is rare. Some are called. It is folly for the householder to believe the monastic is on the wrong path, for they have never trod it. It is equal folly for the monastic to think he's holier than the householder.

Challenges arise when one tries to mix the two.

My two cents.

 

[Sunstone]

The life of the monastic is rare. Some are called. It is folly for the householder to believe the monastic is on the wrong path, for they have never trod it. It is equal folly for the monastic to think he's holier than the householder.

Challenges arise when one tries to mix the two.

My two cents.

I agree. I think that's the larger context in which Krishnamurti's comments should be understood. So far as I know, he supported people's individual choices when it came to their sexuality, excepting only when their choices negatively impacted others. I don't think he had anything against 'the monastic life' for those who freely chose it.

 

[crossfire]

I think Krishnamurti has a good point. Maybe it's just a matter of taste, but I can't bring myself to think of someone as 'holy' who rejects life, and to me, to reject sexuality, beauty, etc. begs the questions of "why?" and "Where do you stop?" Put differently, it seems to be a senseless rejection of the world and of life.

Does my rejecting drinking beer because my drinking a half of a beer will give me a headache that lasts 3 days equate to rejecting life?

 

[beenherebeforeagain]

I think Krishnamurti has a good point. Maybe it's just a matter of taste, but I can't bring myself to think of someone as 'holy' who rejects life, and to me, to reject sexuality, beauty, etc. begs the questions of "why?" and "Where do you stop?" Put differently, it seems to be a senseless rejection of the world and of life.

Well, there are religious positions that assert that the world and all that is in it is base, evil, profane...or at best mundane...and that humans should spurn this life and all that is in it, so as to be rewarded in the next...

Personally, I find that thinking wrong-headed...

 

[Sunstone]

Does my rejecting drinking beer because my drinking a half of a beer will give me a headache that lasts 3 days equate to rejecting life?

As per my statement, is your rejection 'senseless'?

 

[Sunstone]

Well, there are religious positions that assert that the world and all that is in it is base, evil, profane...or at best mundane...and that humans should spurn this life and all that is in it, so as to be rewarded in the next...

Personally, I find that thinking wrong-headed...

I don't think of those views as 'holy'. Maybe that's just me, but I don't. Religious, maybe. But not holy.

 

[beenherebeforeagain]

I don't think of those views as 'holy'. Maybe that's just me, but I don't. Religious, maybe. But not holy.

Well, the proponents of those views seem to believe that rejecting this world is a holy undertaking, and will be granted holy reward in the next life.

I'm not sure how to make a meaningful distinction between religious and holy, when someone rejects the world, including and especially sexuality, as entirely evil. Were early christian ascetics, for example, being religious or holy?

 

[Vinayaka]

I agree. I think that's the larger context in which Krishnamurti's comments should be understood. So far as I know, he supported people's individual choices when it came to their sexuality, excepting only when their choices negatively impacted others. I don't think he had anything against 'the monastic life' for those who freely chose it.

As you probably know, I'm privy to knowing monks of the Hindu tradition personally. Not well, but I have some observational skills.

Yes, the larger context.

 

[Vinayaka]

Does my rejecting drinking beer because my drinking a half of a beer will give me a headache that lasts 3 days equate to rejecting life?

I have the same problem. We must have similar metabolisms.

 

[crossfire]

As per my statement, is your rejection 'senseless'?

Not at all. My rejection of drinking beer is quite sensible for me, just as my choosing celibacy is sensible for me. So, as per your wording, where do you draw the line between sensible and senseless?

 

[Sunstone]

Not at all. My rejection of drinking beer is quite sensible for me, just as my choosing celibacy is sensible for me. So, as per your wording, where do you draw the line between sensible and senseless?

Among other things, a needless, unnecessary, or useless denial of life would strike me as senseless. I suppose I could think of additional 'lines' if I were interested enough to do so.

 

[crossfire]

Among other things, a needless, unnecessary, or useless denial of life would strike me as senseless. I suppose I could think of additional 'lines' if I were interested enough to do so.

So, practicality rather than window-dressing?

 

[Cooky]

Well, there are religious positions that assert that the world and all that is in it is base, evil, profane...or at best mundane...and that humans should spurn this life and all that is in it, so as to be rewarded in the next...

Personally, I find that thinking wrong-headed...

It is wrong-headed... People seem to see certain aspects of life as "cheaper" than others. These people might seek out things that reflect a different type of feeling that they prefer, and might consider "better".