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Human Sacrifice & Scapegoating, Easter's questionable morals

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by icehorse, Apr 16, 2017.

  1. icehorse

    icehorse Well-Known Member
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    "Jesus died for our Sins"...

    Really? What kind of moral teaching is that? Sounds like a cult of human sacrifice and scapegoating!
     
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  2. pcarl

    pcarl Well-Known Member

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    There is a German Archbishop and others who would agree with you. "Jesus did not die for the sins of the people as if God had needed a sacrificial offering or something like a scapegoat." "This picture is as false as it is widespread."This union with us on the part of Jesus Christ, true man, is the fundamental expression of his solidarity with every human person. This solidarity is the meaning of the Incarnation and the meaning of Jesus Christ.
     
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  3. psychoslice

    psychoslice Veteran Member

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    Yes it does sound silly.
     
  4. Nowhere Man

    Nowhere Man Bompu Zen Man with a little bit of Bushido.

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    Pretty bizzare no doubt.
     
  5. HeatherAnn

    HeatherAnn Active Member

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    I’m glad I’m not the only one who sees the insanity of how Christianity has been warped. From readings and documentaries I’ve picked up, much of Christianity now was added about 400 years after Jesus - at one of the councils of the “Universal” (Catholic) church. Scott Peck suggested that evil is the persistent attempt to shift blame & make another pay. That kind of sums up some of the less healthy aspects of traditional Christianity.

    I imagine why human sacrifice & scapegoating has been so popular even today is because as human beings- we ALL have evil moments and aspects of ourselves & this bugs us. For survival, we are much more a-tuned to poison, bad things about ourselves, others & our environment. So it REALLY bugs us that we are so fragile, fallible and at times evil. It’s a bit of a difficult paradox to wrap one’s mind around the need to accept our imperfect humanity, while strive to do & be better. If we could somehow give it to someone like a savior - then we can pretend to not have the evil aspects we have. The problem is the evil aspects don’t go away - they’re just ignored. I suppose, for some, they are subdued as they try to be Christ-like. But I’ve seen many times the nicest Christians get under pressure and the evil pokes through. It is still there. What kind of God would create us as works in progress and demand we be flawless? Only the man-imagined and projected god.

    Some suggest that Jesus is a symbol - kind of like the symbol of Santa is easier to understand for young minds than a Christmas spirit. So Jesus embodies the taking of responsibility for sins of the world which we each need to do in part considering collective unconscious (Jung)/accumulative wrong traditions we’ve inhereted over the generations. Also, applying Jesus symbolism to ourselves, life is about sacrifice, it just depends if the goal behind your sacrifice is the highest GOoD or not. Ie: I could choose to sacrifice feeling good later for the pleasure of eating a bunch of junk food now... or I could sacrifice eating junk food in exchange for feeling better later.

    Anyway, I have yet to meet someone in person who understands Christianity like that symbolically (applying it to themselves) rather than literally (externally seeing Jesus as dying for their sins). I hope that soon changes in part because all benefit more and it’s a more godly/Christ-like approach. There can still be faith in types of saviors (in person and in spirit) who understand and love us unconditionally without the human sacrifice scapegoating.
     
    #5 HeatherAnn, Mar 4, 2018
    Last edited: Mar 4, 2018
  6. 1213

    1213 Well-Known Member

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    It depends on what that means. According to the Bible, Jesus had right to forgive sins before his death and that he did so, became one reason why people wanted to kill him.

    The scribes and the Pharisees began to reason, saying, "Who is this that speaks blasphemies? Who can forgive sins, but God alone?" But Jesus, perceiving their thoughts, answered them, "Why are you reasoning so in your hearts? Which is easier to say, 'Your sins are forgiven you;' or to say, 'Arise and walk?' But that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins" (he said to the paralyzed man), "I tell you, arise, and take up your cot, and go to your house." Immediately he rose up before them, and took up that which he was laying on, and departed to his house, glorifying God.
    Luke 5:21-25

    But still, Jesus used his life for our benefit, so that we could hear the message God had commanded Jesus to teach. That is the reason why it can be said Jesus sacrificed his life for us. He used his life to help people. It can be compared to a soldier who sacrifices his life for his country while defending the country.
     
  7. icehorse

    icehorse Well-Known Member
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    I was NOT consulted on Jesus' decision and I want nothing to do with it. I find many of the premises insulting and unhealthy. And it's nothing like the sacrifice a soldier makes.
     
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  8. ADigitalArtist

    ADigitalArtist Well-Known Member
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    I've known soldiers with a Jesus complex. Literally did it for the glory and lord it over people in a 'you didn't ask me to do this but now you owe me' sort of way. Thankfully that's not typical. But oh man, if you don't think the past 30 years of us military involvement had anything to do with 'fighting for your freedom,' it's like denying the necessity of Jesus' death.
    The hero worship of US troops doesn't help either.
     
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  9. gnomon

    gnomon Well-Known Member

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    Dear God......tongue in cheek.....what the hell are you afraid of?

    What a stupid question.
     
  10. Mister Emu

    Mister Emu Emu Extraordinaire
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    Where it is a teaching of morality, it is used to promote self-sacrifice for the sake of others.

    The history of Christianity is a well documented affair; the meaning of the death of Jesus is one of the earliest and most fundamental tenets of Christianity.
     
  11. HeatherAnn

    HeatherAnn Active Member

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    No, it isn’t. Otherwise there would he absolutely no controversy.
    Personally I don’t really care much about his-story anyway. I care more about spiritual truths that may be edplained in biblical parables and how to apply them well in my life.
     
  12. Estro Felino

    Estro Felino Believer in free will
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    But the weirdest part is they speak of it as if it was a suicide. As if he had gone to Pilate and told him "please, crucify me"
     
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  13. Mister Emu

    Mister Emu Emu Extraordinaire
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    There is "controversy" over whether or not alien lizardmen rule the governments of the world. There is no informed controversy about whether the idea that Jesus died for our sins is fundamental to Christianity, and almost unfathomable to think that the idea was added in the 400s. It is in the Gospels, it is in the writings of Paul, it is everywhere in Christianity from the earliest days.

    It would probably serve you better to avoid making arguments in subjects you don't care for and are ill-informed about.

    I hope you grow in enlightment and closeness to God in this way.
     
  14. icehorse

    icehorse Well-Known Member
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    Back to the OP, I'm not doubting your claim above, I'm questioning whether "dying for our sins" is a good moral message. I'd say that it's not.
     
  15. Kelly of the Phoenix

    Kelly of the Phoenix Well-Known Member

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    How do we know what was in the earliest days if the scriptures came well after Jesus was dead?
     
  16. Musing Bassist

    Musing Bassist Well-Known Member

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    For Christians, sin is not a mere abstraction but an objective reality. Human nature has been irrevocably tainted by sin and the ultimate consequence of sin is spiritual death. (Because God is holy). Since sin (by human power alone) is insurmountable, it leaves us humans in a hopeless bind. The direct vision of God (which is our ultimate end) was utterly closed to us. It was closed to us by an impassable, infinite chasm which only an infinite god could cross. The Christian claim, fundamentally, is that God made that crossing, two-thousand years ago by becoming human himself.

    Jesus as a man underwent death because Jesus alone as God had the means to overcome what we by ourselves could not. By dying he redeemed us and by his resurrection he conquered on our behalf our otherwise inescapable fate.

    The moral lesson should be obvious. That lesson is that the ultimate act of love is to lay down one's own life for another. For Jesus, those others were the entire human race which he as God had created.
     
    #16 Musing Bassist, Mar 29, 2018
    Last edited: Mar 29, 2018
  17. Sleeppy

    Sleeppy Fatalist. Christian. Pacifist.

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    Humans are a violent animal species, evolving empathetic intelligence over several hundred millennia...

    We practice human sacrifice daily, in job competition and most blatantly, in warfare.
     
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  18. icehorse

    icehorse Well-Known Member
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    In order for me to accept this I must (at the very least), accept the idea that a loving god created me broken in the first place - I'm not buying that.
     
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  19. Musing Bassist

    Musing Bassist Well-Known Member

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    Except that you were created in no such say. Human nature has been tainted by sin (read Genesis) but it's not broken. You still retain that goodness inherent to you as a creature in the image of God. You still retain your freedom to choose good over evil. (Albeit now with difficulty). In other words, the mirror is dirty but it's not broken.

    There's actually an advantage to our current state. That by resisting our tendency to fall into sin we gain the opportunity to merit in ways we would not have been able to had we retained our original innocence. Victory is only meaningful if it is earned. Going back to my infinite chasm metaphor, Jesus set down the bridge but no bridge is any good if it's not crossed. Whether or not we cross that bridge is up to us. God compels nothing.
     
  20. icehorse

    icehorse Well-Known Member
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    I'm also not buying Genesis. Even if I believed in the stories, I would not take on any responsibility for Adam and Eve's mistakes.
     
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