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Human Rights

Tmac

Active Member
To me, just talking about rights misses that emphasis also needs to be put on responsibilities. No one has an absolute right to do anything and everything except an absolute rulers. We all have to strike a balance.

My parents who were atheist Jews exposed me to Judaism because it was part of our heritage but did not say I should believe or not believe. They as parents felt the responsibility for my education in this area but gave me the right to think for myself as I matured. This seems to me the ideal.

Human rights have never been about what one can and can't do and nobody gives them to you. They come with life whether you are aware of them or not and this thread meant not to point the finger at religion but the overall violation of our rights, its done by parents, religions, governments and we do it to each other everyday, without even thinking.
 

Tmac

Active Member
"Can I have candy, mom?"
"Don't run with the scissors, dear."
"I don't want to do math homework. It makes my head hurt."
"Tell me a story, dad."
"I don't want a haircut."

... breaking news today... Congress has given children under the age of 9 the right to vote...:eek::fearscream:

It seems as though you like to put the cart before the horse. Obviously you cannot grasp the thought.
 

Tmac

Active Member
This thread is about human rights, one of the most important of the human rights as described in the Universal Declaration on Human Rights, is freedom of religion. Islam declares apostasy to be a crime, and in many parts of the world Muslims agree with Islamic teachings on this point. So if you're one of the hundreds of millions of Muslims who live in such a place, you DO NOT have freedom of religion.

How is that an irrational point?


No, the thread is about violating human rights, you made it about religion.
 

Tmac

Active Member
This topic is interesting. We don't really have literal rights in context to nature. Interestingly if you come to understand nature as a kind of absolute dictator in a particular kind of way, that's really really liberating. Then the struggles that we battle with, are no longer as important and not primary. Human rights can't abandon nature, nor can they simply projected out as divinely ordained as well. One leads to a narcissism of modernity the other is a narcissism of antiquity. Some will claim their ancient narcissism is fundemental others their modern narcissism is emperically true. Both agree narcissism is fundemental, they only disagree on the details.

How do you know we don't have "literal" rights in context to nature? Truth is we don't know what we don't know. And its what we think we know that is the main inhibitor.
 

David T

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
How do you know we don't have "literal" rights in context to nature? Truth is we don't know what we don't know. And its what we think we know that is the main inhibitor.
How would you know if your question is even reality?
 

icehorse

......unaffiliated...... anti-dogmatist
Premium Member
Very rarely will a Muslim leave Islam for another major Religion. Most stop practising Islam and become agnostic or reject the notion of God. What evidence do you have showing people are not free to stop believing?

You can find plenty of evidence easily with a few google searches. Do you need me to invoke: LMGTFY ?
 

Muslim-UK

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
You can find plenty of evidence easily with a few google searches. Do you need me to invoke: LMGTFY ?
I looked, found this which lists 26 of the major majority Muslim Countries:

Apostasy in Islam - Wikipedia

Afghanistan - no one killed for apostasy.
2 people jailed and 2 sought refugee status in Europe.

Algeria - Freedom of religion in Algeria is regulated by the Algerian Constitution, which declares Islam to be the state religion (Article 2) but also declares that "freedom of creed and opinion is inviolable" (Article 36); it prohibits discrimination, Article 29 states "All citizens are equal before the law. No discrimination shall prevail because of birth, race, sex, opinion or any other personal or social condition or circumstance". No cases noted

Bangladesh does not have a law against apostasy, but incidences of persecution of apostates have been reported. Dozens of atheist and secularist Bangladeshis have been targeted for practicing free speech and "disrespecting" Islam, such as Humayun Azad, who was the target of a failed machete assassination attempt, and Avijit Roy, who was killed with a machete. Some Bangladeshi Imams have encouraged the killing of converts from Islam. An example is the stabbing of a Bangladeshi Christian evangelist (a "murtad fitri" or Muslim-born apostate) while returning home from a film adaptation of the Gospel of Luke.

Disrespecting Islam under Shariah Law is punishable by death. The Government didn't act, leaving mobs to take matters into their own hands.

Brunei - no cases to report

Egypt - Egypt's penal code is silent about any punishment for apostasy from Islam. Contemporary Egyptian jurisprudence prohibits apostasy from Islam, but has also remained silent about the death penalty. Some cases resulted in prison time, and like Bangladesh some people take matters into their own hands.

Indonesia does not have a law against apostasy, and the constitution provides for freedom of religion, accords "all persons shall be free to choose and to practice the religion of his/her choice".[190] But Indonesia has as a broad blasphemy law that protects all six official religions (Islam, Protestantism, Catholicism, Hinduism, Buddhism, and Confucianism) (Article 156) and a Presidential Decree (1965) that permits prosecution of people who commit blasphemy. 1 Atheist jailed

Iran:
According to US think tank Freedom House, since the 1990s the Islamic Republic of Iran has sometimes used death squads against converts, including major Protestant leaders. Under President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, the regime has engaged in a systematic campaign to track down and reconvert or kill those who have changed their religion from Islam.

15 ex-Muslim Christians were incarcerated on 15 May 2008 under charges of apostasy. They may face the death penalty if convicted. A new penal code is being proposed in Iran that would require the death penalty in cases of apostasy on the Internet.

Some from the Bahai faith have been jailed and sentenced to death in 1994 &1995

Iraq:
Although the Constitution of Iraq recognises Islam as the official religion and states that no law may be enacted that contradicts the established provisions of Islam, it also guarantees freedom of thought, conscience, and religious belief and practice. While the Government generally endorses these rights, unsettled conditions have prevented effective governance in parts of the country, and the Government's ability to protect religious freedoms has been handicapped by insurgency, terrorism, and sectarian violence. Since 2003

Jordan : 1 case jailed

Kuwait: 1 case, loss of inheritance

Malaysia does not have a national law that criminalises apostasy and its Article 11 grants freedom of religion to its diverse population of different religions.[219] However, Malaysia's constitution grants its states (Negeri) the power to create and enforce laws relating to Islamic matters and Muslim community. No cases to report

Mauritania Article 306 of the criminal code of Mauritania declares apostasy in Islam as illegal and provides a death sentence for the crime of leaving Islam.[222] Its law provides a provision where the guilty is given the opportunity to repent and return to Islam within three days. Failure to do so leads to a death sentence, dissolution of family rights and property confiscation by the government. The Mauritanian law requires that an apostate who has repented should be placed in custody and jailed for a period for the crime. 2 cases, 1 jailed other outcome unknown.

Morocco: The penal code of Morocco does not impose the death penalty for apostasy. However, Islam is the official state religion of Morocco under its constitution. Article 41 of the Moroccan constitution gives fatwa powers (habilitée, religious decree legislation) to the Supreme Council of Religious Scholars, which issued a religious decree, or fatwa, in April 2013 that Moroccan Muslims who leave Islam must be sentenced to death.[225][226] However, Mahjoub El Hiba, a senior Moroccan government official, denied that the fatwa was in any way legally binding. 1 case, fled abroad.

Libya: In June 2013, Libya’s General National Council assembly (GNC) voted to make Islamic Sharia law the base for all legislation and for all state institutions, a decision have an impact in banking, criminal and financial law.[232] In February 2016, Libya’s General National Council assembly (GNC) released adecree No.20 Changing on provisions of the Libyan Penal Code. No cases to report.

Oman does not have an apostasy law. However, under Law 32 of 1997 on Personal Status for Muslims, an apostate's marriage is considered annulled and inheritance rights denied when the individual commits apostasy.[234] The Basic Law of Oman, since its enactment in 1995, declares Oman to be an Islamic state and Sharia as the final word and source of all legislation. Omani jurists state that this deference to Sharia, and alternatively the blasphemy law under Article 209 of Omani law, allows the state to pursue death penalty against Muslim apostates, if it wants to. No cases to report

Palestine: The State of Palestine does not have a constitution; however, the Basic Law provides for religious freedom. The Basic Law was approved in 2002 by the Palestinian Legislative Council (PLC) and signed by then-President Yasir Arafat. The Basic Law states that Islam is the official religion, but also calls for respect and sanctity for other "heavenly" religions (such as Judaism and Christianity) and that the principles of Shari'a (Islamic law) shall be the main source of legislation. 1 blogger jailed for 10 months.

Pakistan: As of 2014, there is no law that criminalizes apostasy in Pakistan.[238] A bill was proposed in 2007 to criminalize apostasy, but it failed to pass. It has been noted that, in theory, the principle of "a lacuna" could apply where a gap in statute law could be filled with Islamic law. However, as of 2014, there were no known cases of anyone being prosecuted for apostasy in Pakistan. 1 case 1992 - outcome unknown

Qatar: Apostasy in Islam is a crime in Qatar.[244] Its Law 11 of 2004 specific traditional Sharia prosecution and punishment for apostasy, considering it a hudud crime punishable by death penalty. No cases to report

Saudi Arabia: Saudi Arabia has no penal code, and defaults its law entirely to Sharia and its implementation to religious courts. The case law in Saudi Arabia, and consensus of its jurists is that Islamic law imposes the death penalty on apostates.
Not quite the hysteria you tried to state as fact: People jailed, thrashed in public.

Sudan:
Article 126.2 of the Penal Code of Sudan (1991) reads,

`Whoever is guilty of apostasy is invited to repent over a period to be determined by the tribunal. If he persists in his apostasy and was not recently converted to Islam, he will be put to death.`[citation needed]

Some notable cases of apostasy in Sudan include: Mahmoud Mohammed Taha, a Sudanese religious thinker, leader, and trained engineer, who was executed for apostasy in 1985 at the age of 76 by the regime of Gaafar Nimeiry.[260][261] Meriam Ibrahim, a 27-year-old Christian Sudanese woman was sentenced to death for apostasy in May 2014, but allowed to leave the country in July after an international outcry. 1 executed, 1 deported.
 

Muslim-UK

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Tunisia: Following the 2010–11 Tunisian Revolution, a Constituent Assembly worked for 2.5 years to written a new Constitution, approved in January 2014, contained a provision in Article 6 granting freedom of conscience.[263][264] It also stipulates that '[a]ccusations of apostasy and incitement to violence are prohibited'.[263] With it, Tunisia became the first Arab-majority country to protect its citizens from prosecution for renouncing Islam.[265] Critics have pointed out alleged flaws of this formulation, namely that it violates the freedom of expression.[263] 2 cases, both jailed.

The highest profile cases of apostasy in Tunisia were of the two atheist ex-Muslims Ghazi Beji and Jabeur Mejri, sentenced to 7.5 years in prison on 28 March 2012. They were prosecuted for expressing their views on Islam, the Quran and Muhammad on Facebook, blogs and in online books, which allegedly 'violated public order and morality'. 2 cases, both jailed, one was tortured for a confession.

U.A.E: Apostasy is a crime in the United Arab Emirates.[276] In 1978, UAE began the process of Islamising the nation's law, after its council of ministers voted to appoint a High Committee to identify all its laws that conflicted with Sharia. Among the many changes that followed, UAE incorporated hudud crimes of Sharia into its Penal Code - apostasy being one of them.[277] Article 1 and Article 66 of UAE's Penal Code requires hudud crimes to be punished with the death penalty. No cases noted

Yemen: Apostasy is a crime in Yemen. Articles 12 and 259 of the Yemen Penal Code address apostasy, the former requires Sharia sentence be used for apostasy and the latter specifies death penalty for apostates of Islam.[281] Yemeni law waives the punishment to an apostate if he or she recants, repents and returns to Islam while denouncing his or her new faith. 1 arrested and charged, outcome unknown.

In Islam, what is the penalty for apostasy? And across the Muslim world, how many hundreds of millions of Muslims believe that apostasy is a crime, often believing it to be a CAPITAL crime.
Ultimately it depends on the Country and the ruling Governmental authority on who is targeted to be killed if at all. From the numbers it looks like more innocent black people are killed in a Single Month in the USA by the authorities than Apostates in Islam over the course of One Year.

Still it's nice that it manages to preoccupy your mind though. Perhaps you should write to Congress asking the travel ban for Muslims be overturned and implement a new Law allowing Muslim and Christian holiday makers to apply for asylum on the basis of apostasy or general discrimination back home. Think of the potential Tens of Millions you might be able to save.

Anyway it would seem Millions of nonpracticing Muslims are alive and well in their own Countries.
 

QuestioningMind

Well-Known Member
So is it a capital crime, or is it a capital crime in 'many' cases? Which is it, and where is your evidence.

Uh, you do realize that different nations have different laws, so it can both be a crime in one nation and a CAPITAL crime in another. As for evidence, simply Google:
People executed for apostasy from Islam
 

ADigitalArtist

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
Because religion is one of the main culprits when it comes to violating human rights.
No it isn't. The vast majority of human rights battles through history have been faught for by majority religious people. And plenty of atrocity, including the most egregious offenders of human rights violations in modern history, was done by atheist regimes and their people. You have an entirely tunnel vision and prejudicial outlook on religion, and that's coming from someone who disagrees with them all.
 

Kemosloby

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Where do you draw the line. I'm sure the original idea of human rights was to protect the people from government turning overly oppressive.
 

blü 2

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Atheism is just another religion.
It never was with us. We raised our three kids without mentioning religion or atheism, and they've turned out to be decent citizens. We answered the few questions they asked as quietly and impartially as we could, and left it to them. (Only one of them ever interrogated me on what I thought about religion, and by then he was in his late 20s.)
 

blü 2

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Do you have the right to set aside that which you accepted before you knew you didn't have to accept it?
Depends. If you're under the rule of law, which all civilized countries are, you obey the law. If you opt out, you do so at your peril, whether as a crook or a protester. (My own adventures in protesting were largely lawful.)

If you're not breaking the law, then you may do as you please and the only sanctions for bad choices will be social disapproval or self-harm.
And if you believe you have that right, can you exercise it?
Again, it depends in the same way.


While we're talking about rights, do you think the citizen also has duties?
 

icehorse

......unaffiliated...... anti-dogmatist
Premium Member
No it isn't. The vast majority of human rights battles through history have been faught for by majority religious people. And plenty of atrocity, including the most egregious offenders of human rights violations in modern history, was done by atheist regimes and their people. You have an entirely tunnel vision and prejudicial outlook on religion, and that's coming from someone who disagrees with them all.

Please refrain from guessing what I think.

- I have never questioned religion's past usefulness.
- Haven't we been over the "atheist regimes" fallacy several times?
- I have a reasoned and researched outlook on religion. Being a critic does NOT make one prejudicial.
 

A Vestigial Mote

Well-Known Member
They never say 'bring up as atheists is child abuse' though. :rolleyes:
With my own kids, I only ever told them what I thought when asked, or probed them with my own questions to see what they thought of certain things. I never once pressured them in any way, or represented to them ANYTHING as "fact" regarding God - except maybe factually recounting "what The Bible says." I made absolutely sure that they came to their own conclusions about it all, never even starting the conversation about "God", or "the afterlife", or "ghosts/spirits", etc. Only ever letting them ask me. My daughter even professed herself Christian for a time.

Both of my eldest are basically atheist now. I believe a lot of it has to do with the relatively strange things they experienced when we did go to church - which was quite a bit in their youth and into their adolescence. Combined with the household being pretty logically minded when it comes to discussions, mediation and dissemination of knowledge, I feel this made them very seriously question the odd behaviors they witnessed from believers. Things like speaking in tongues, people shaking or going into fits as they were "gripped by the spirit", and, of course, the odd things people tend to say who are fervent believers, but lack any sort of eloquence.

In the end, I truly believe that religion "lost" my kids on its own. Obviously I had something to do with it to a point... I'm not going to claim that my responses to their queries were always 100% unbiased. But I honestly did my very best to make sure their minds were left to their own devices.

I'm also not saying that all atheists are like this - I can't say I know that, but I have to believe that there is simply less spiritual discussion of any kind in households "dominated" by atheists, versus there being discussion actively denouncing religion or spirituality.
 

sayak83

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
This thread is about human rights, one of the most important of the human rights as described in the Universal Declaration on Human Rights, is freedom of religion. Islam declares apostasy to be a crime, and in many parts of the world Muslims agree with Islamic teachings on this point. So if you're one of the hundreds of millions of Muslims who live in such a place, you DO NOT have freedom of religion.

How is that an irrational point?
I agree with you on this. However I was questioning your claim that raising children with beliefs of their parents constitute child abuse and is a violation of their rights. That's where we are disagreeing.
 
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