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How would you fix the US health care system?
- Thread starter Trey of Diamonds
- Start date
T-Dawg
Self-appointed Lunatic
Meh, there actually are lazy underachievers out there that live off welfare and refuse to find jobs. They sure aren't a majority though.
Oh, and as for you calling me either severely misinformed or an idiot, here's the links where I think I found out about the eugenics in Obama's healthcare plan:
Obama's Healthcare Plan = Nazi Eugenics Plan?, page 1
Staredit Network » Topic: Eugenics in the United States
Come to think of it, I don't think they actually say that Obama's killing off the mentally ill, but if I remember correctly, he's forcing sterilization on them.
I suppose you will just say that these aren't good sources? =/
Oh, and as for you calling me either severely misinformed or an idiot, here's the links where I think I found out about the eugenics in Obama's healthcare plan:
Obama's Healthcare Plan = Nazi Eugenics Plan?, page 1
Staredit Network » Topic: Eugenics in the United States
Come to think of it, I don't think they actually say that Obama's killing off the mentally ill, but if I remember correctly, he's forcing sterilization on them.
I suppose you will just say that these aren't good sources? =/
Zephyr
Moved on
Dude, they're ******* Alex Jones and Infowars (which is run by Alex Jones). Even The Onion is a better source. You couldn't find a less-reliable source if you tried. Seriously, that's bottom of the barrel if you're looking for factual information. Got anything from a source not entirely run by the tinfoil crowd?
Seriously, the only thing of worth Alex Jones has ever been a part of was his 40 second cameo in the "A Scanner Darkly" film.
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T-Dawg
Self-appointed Lunatic
I don't know anything about Alex Jones or Infowars, and I don't know much about The Onion either... from what I know, The Onion is a very good news source...
What source would you recommend? One that says the same things that you do? How does one tell the difference between a bad source and someone they disagree with? For example, a lot of people say Rush Limbaugh is a load of crap, but I've listened to him before, and I simply don't see what's so bad about that guy.
What source would you recommend? One that says the same things that you do? How does one tell the difference between a bad source and someone they disagree with? For example, a lot of people say Rush Limbaugh is a load of crap, but I've listened to him before, and I simply don't see what's so bad about that guy.
Zephyr
Moved on
Well The Onion is absolutely amazing, but it isn't news. It's a comedy site that makes satirical news. It's actually really funny and worth checking out. Their news videos are great too. Look like actual newscasts.
Home | The Onion - America's Finest News Source
I'd accept anything with any sense of integrity or an ounce of credibility. I mean, compared to Alex Jones, even Fox News and World Net Daily come off as perfectly factual. The big difference is that while Fox News and WND might be incredibly biased and often misrepresent things, Infowars pulls things out of mid air and thrives on conspiracy theories. It can't be called news in the slightest, any more than the Weekly World News could for warning us about Batboy.
Rush Limbaugh is better than Alex Jones I guess, but he's hated for a good reason. He's repeatedly shown himself as a racist, a homophobe, and a liar. If you want some examples I should be able to dig up quite a bit. It's not hard.
T-Dawg
Self-appointed Lunatic
In this age where almost EVERYONE lies, how do we even know what's fact and what's made up? Anyone can pull numbers and "facts" out of thin air. How do we decide who's lying?
If people hate liars and racists, then why is Obama so popular? For example, I remember one story about how there was this professor at some university who just happened to be black, who was with his friend (don't remember if he was black or not). The door to his home was stuck (or something like that; anyways, he couldn't get it open), and a police officer came up and asked him for his identification (the officer thought he might be trying to break into the house). However, instead of showing the officer his ID, the guy basically threw a fit and went out of control, to the point where the officer had to arrest him. Obama accused the police officer of racial profiling, saying that he "acted stupidly."
Of course, this story came from my parents, so I'm not sure how credible it is.
Zephyr
Moved on
By looking at the facts. Tell me, do you believe FEMA has been building death camps so that the Bilderberg group and the Illuminati can round up and execute the undesirables? Alex Jones does.
Because he's not.
That's a pretty screwed up account. When the police questioned the Harvard professor, he presented not one, but TWO forms of identification showing that it was his home. The police then intruded in his house and had him exit to his front yard, where they then arrested him for disorderly conduct, a charge that was dropped. They did act stupidly. They acted extremely stupidly.
Zephyr
Moved on
...Seriously? If you're that lost then there's really no hope for you.
I know this is a radical concept, amazing one, but you might try going to the source itself. You might start with section, 1233 (page425). I think this is the source of all the brouhaha.
First, there's nothing about suicide or eugenics -- (and I'd be interested in what you think eugenics is, I suspect you've been misled).
The whole thing is a promotion of Advanced Care and End of Life Planning. There is nothing fearsome or malevolent about these programs, however they've been spun. The medical establishment has been pushing them for years. In fact, if you're admitted to my hospital (I'm an RN) you will be asked about these things in the standard admission data base. We encourage Patients to formulate advance directives, living wills and appoint a medical attourney/proxy (exactly what section 1233 addresses). I suspect you'll find the same thing in any hospital you check into.
All this has nothing to do with killing off old people or encouraging anyone to check out prematurely. This is about giving you, or an attourney you know and trust, control over your medical care. It increases your power and control, it doesn't curtail it.
It gives the medical staff instructions, per your wish, should you become, for whatever reason, unable to communicate these yourself.
End of life planning, despite the lugubrious sounding name, is usually a desirable thing as we become older. Too many people are overtaken by the viscissitudes of old age. They end up in situations they would have been horrified at when they were younger, but are now powerless to control.
The remedy is to understand and plan your options while you're still in a position to do so, to take control of your situation so the 'government' doesn't have to.
Most of the negative propaganda you hear is a campaign of lies designed to derail healthcare reform; to keep the insurance industry in control of your healthcare and maintain their lucrative extortion racket.
Alex jones, well, he's a horse of a different color. While he brings up a lot of facts and history that should, in fact, be more generally known, his interpretation of them, and the world-view he weaves of them, is often extremely questionable.
First, there's nothing about suicide or eugenics -- (and I'd be interested in what you think eugenics is, I suspect you've been misled).
The whole thing is a promotion of Advanced Care and End of Life Planning. There is nothing fearsome or malevolent about these programs, however they've been spun. The medical establishment has been pushing them for years. In fact, if you're admitted to my hospital (I'm an RN) you will be asked about these things in the standard admission data base. We encourage Patients to formulate advance directives, living wills and appoint a medical attourney/proxy (exactly what section 1233 addresses). I suspect you'll find the same thing in any hospital you check into.
All this has nothing to do with killing off old people or encouraging anyone to check out prematurely. This is about giving you, or an attourney you know and trust, control over your medical care. It increases your power and control, it doesn't curtail it.
It gives the medical staff instructions, per your wish, should you become, for whatever reason, unable to communicate these yourself.
End of life planning, despite the lugubrious sounding name, is usually a desirable thing as we become older. Too many people are overtaken by the viscissitudes of old age. They end up in situations they would have been horrified at when they were younger, but are now powerless to control.
The remedy is to understand and plan your options while you're still in a position to do so, to take control of your situation so the 'government' doesn't have to.
Most of the negative propaganda you hear is a campaign of lies designed to derail healthcare reform; to keep the insurance industry in control of your healthcare and maintain their lucrative extortion racket.
Alex jones, well, he's a horse of a different color. While he brings up a lot of facts and history that should, in fact, be more generally known, his interpretation of them, and the world-view he weaves of them, is often extremely questionable.
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Buttons*
Glass half Panda'd
I don't really care what kind of system it is, so long as the people that need it get the help they need.
People like my Mother, who pays taxes, has a job, and does work her *** off every day - doesn't have insurance, and would not qualify for the "poor" end healthcare system because she makes too much money. Her only option at this point is to suffer through it or get insurance. She doesn't have enough money for insurance, but has too much money to go to the "free" clinics. (There are a few emergency clinics that cater to those who are poor.) What should we do with people like her?
People like my Mother, who pays taxes, has a job, and does work her *** off every day - doesn't have insurance, and would not qualify for the "poor" end healthcare system because she makes too much money. Her only option at this point is to suffer through it or get insurance. She doesn't have enough money for insurance, but has too much money to go to the "free" clinics. (There are a few emergency clinics that cater to those who are poor.) What should we do with people like her?
Zephyr
Moved on
Socialism.
Buttons*
Glass half Panda'd
She doesn't want Socialism. Probably because she was raised during the time when dirty commies were the enemy. But I wonder what socialism could really do for us. In NZ it works well because there aren't THAT many people here. In the US, it would be a much different system of socialism. One that must account for everyone... and because the super rich are 1% of the world's population, it would be hard to get the resources to treat everyone equally by using their money to back this system.
Zephyr
Moved on
Single-payer would reduce the costs of healthcare, even in taxes. I hate it when people bring up "but the US is so much BIGGER, so it could never work" without realizing that bigger groups means bigger tax revenue, so there's no reason size would be a significant obstacle.
Buttons*
Glass half Panda'd
I don't mean to be ignorant, but I do feel that people in Texas would probably need to pay more than the rest of the population. Not because of it's population, but because of it's wealth. In this economy, it's the only place that's doing ok. I don't think Texans in general would like being taxed more than anyone simply because the people there are hard working and manage to do well for themselves. If it's too ignorant, just be nice about it. I don't know everything.
Accountants and financial consultants usually advise someone in her situation to "pay down" in a medical crisis to the point where she'd qualify for Medicaid.
This sounds ridiculous, I know. People used to save for retirement. Now they save for their first medical crisis. Weather or not they have insurance to begin with, people will often end up in poverty. Insurance, even if she could afford it, is a safety net she can use only once. Once you make a major claim you become essentially uninsurable, and the next strike will throw you into poverty -- provided the insurance Co doesn't deny your claim and cancel you immediately (yes, they do that -- frequently).
Vile Atheist
Loud and Obnoxious
I haven't read through 10 pages of comments, but I will add to this.
It would not be a bad idea for the United States to adopt a Canadian-style healthcare system. Our system works great. And I see a lot of American politicians point to waiting times and other detriments, but speaking from experience, these are way over-exaggerated. If I ever fall sick, I want it to be in Canada, where I can do so knowing I won't have to worry about having enough money to pay for the procedures and knowing I can expect timely, top-quality care. Where even if I don't have any money and I fall sick, I can check in at a hospital and still be looked after. THAT is a system that values humanity. Money should not enter into the equation when the lives and livelihoods of millions of people are at stake.
It would not be a bad idea for the United States to adopt a Canadian-style healthcare system. Our system works great. And I see a lot of American politicians point to waiting times and other detriments, but speaking from experience, these are way over-exaggerated. If I ever fall sick, I want it to be in Canada, where I can do so knowing I won't have to worry about having enough money to pay for the procedures and knowing I can expect timely, top-quality care. Where even if I don't have any money and I fall sick, I can check in at a hospital and still be looked after. THAT is a system that values humanity. Money should not enter into the equation when the lives and livelihoods of millions of people are at stake.
What is it with "Socialism" 
eek. Why is it suddenly a dirty word?
I'm really interested in what people think socialism is; how they're defining it, and what they fear from it. What makes socialism a bad thing?
Buttons, you mention your mother was brought up during the anti-commie days and wouldn't go for Socialism. Yet the 50s and 60s were way more socialist than we are today. The US has moved so far to the right since her time an old-style conservative Republican would today be labled Far Left.
The New Deal, with Social Security, The GI Bill and government paid College education -- all socialist policies. Did/does your grandmother oppose these? Would she give up Social Security or Medicare coverage? Does tshe think the VA should be shut down? Would she be OK paying a monthly bill to a private security agency or fire company, in lieu of a socialized police and fire protection?
If the progressive 'socialist' policies in Europe and Canada were so bad, why do the Europeans and Canadians like them so much. Are they secret Commies or Bildenbergers?
eek. Why is it suddenly a dirty word?I'm really interested in what people think socialism is; how they're defining it, and what they fear from it. What makes socialism a bad thing?
Buttons, you mention your mother was brought up during the anti-commie days and wouldn't go for Socialism. Yet the 50s and 60s were way more socialist than we are today. The US has moved so far to the right since her time an old-style conservative Republican would today be labled Far Left.
The New Deal, with Social Security, The GI Bill and government paid College education -- all socialist policies. Did/does your grandmother oppose these? Would she give up Social Security or Medicare coverage? Does tshe think the VA should be shut down? Would she be OK paying a monthly bill to a private security agency or fire company, in lieu of a socialized police and fire protection?
If the progressive 'socialist' policies in Europe and Canada were so bad, why do the Europeans and Canadians like them so much. Are they secret Commies or Bildenbergers?
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Vile Atheist
Loud and Obnoxious
What is it with "Socialism"
I'm really interested in what people think socialism is; how they're defining it, and what they fear from it. What makes socialism a bad thing?
...
If the progressive 'socialist' policies in Europe and Canada were so bad, why do the Europeans and Canadians like them so much. Are they secret Commies or Bildenbergers?
We like them so much because socialism takes all the essential resources and services - things people NEED - and nationalizes them so companies cannot monopolize on them, shaft everyone and make an assload of money.
The problem is when we become TOO socialized and our economy suffers because of it. There is a certain point where it is no longer beneficial to provide services to your population.
I was in a discussion once with some Native friends who proposed the existence and constitution of the Republic of Kanata (basically a Canadian Republic that is very socialist, almost Communist). I supported the idea of a Canadian Republic, but their economy was so whacked that I withdrew support on that basis.
They advocated the abolishing of income tax while at the same time giving the government a constitutional obligation to provide every citizen with food, water, housing, transportation, healthcare, and education, among many others.
I put the question to them: Income tax is a major source of government revenue. How do you plan to pay for those services with the income tax abolished, especially when now, with the income tax instated, these services, some of which the government is not providing are very expensive? They even wanted to cancel all debts and mortgages outstanding. That would ruin the banks. They wanted to nationalize all resources. It was a huge mess. This is basically Communism and if we get into that realm thinking only of the benefits, but not of the cost, our economy suffers greatly because of it.