How to implement a 2 state solution?

[Cassiopia]

I'd like to believe that you genuinely want fairness, because if there were more people like that there might be peace. But I think that for you the center line is very much in the Israeli camp...

Given that most of Europe under the nazis worked really hard to commit genocide against the Jews I would say that the Israelis have a right to live in their state and not have more expectations demanded of them then is demanded of other countries.

Hopefully that was just badly worded and is not something you actually believe.
Most of Europe did not work hard to commit genocide against the Jews.
The Nazis tried to commit genocide against the Jews. Most of Europe were not Nazis. Most of Europe were fighting against the Nazis whether they were occupied or not. Most of Europe was horrified by the scope and extent of the holocaust when it was discovered.

I agree the fact that the holocaust happened is one reason (maybe the only reason) why Israeli Jews should be given special consideration and a degree of leeway that wouldn't be given to other nations.

The Arab world that is largely responsible for the wars that caused the refugees is silent on what to do with them. I believe only Jordan gave the Palestinian refugees who were in Jordan citizenship .

History is not that simple.

Israel granted full citizenship to Palestinians and all non Jews living inside its borders 64 years ago. It took in the Jews expelled from middle eastern countries who lost everything.

Israel has given religious freedom to other religions to practice in Israel.

Imagine if China took over America and said "Hey, don't be glum... You can still practice your own religions and you can all be Chinese citizens now!"
I imagine there would be dancing in the streets!

There are many other nations that have human rights violations but Israel is often singled out.

Perhaps because it repeatedly fails to honor UN resolutions?

There has been 64 years of living in a region that has waged war against Israel.

Sadly yes. Mainly because the region does not accept the creation of a foreign state in it's midst.
I wonder how the US would have reacted if the Bible had cited New York as the promised land and after the war the international authorities had decreed that native New Yorkers should make way for an influx of Jewish refugees who would create their own state?
Oops... Wait a minute..?

So I would like to see fairness.

Me too. And peace.
Perhaps it should be compulsory to walk a mile in the enemy's shoes...

 

[jazzymom]

I'd like to believe that you genuinely want fairness, because if there were more people like that there might be peace. But I think that for you the center line is very much in the Israeli camp...

Hopefully that was just badly worded and is not something you actually believe.
Most of Europe did not work hard to commit genocide against the Jews.
The Nazis tried to commit genocide against the Jews. Most of Europe were not Nazis. Most of Europe were fighting against the Nazis whether they were occupied or not. Most of Europe was horrified by the scope and extent of the holocaust when it was discovered.

I agree the fact that the holocaust happened is one reason (maybe the only reason) why Israeli Jews should be given special consideration and a degree of leeway that wouldn't be given to other nations.



History is not that simple.




Imagine if China took over America and said "Hey, don't be glum... You can still practice your own religions and you can all be Chinese citizens now!"
I imagine there would be dancing in the streets!


Perhaps because it repeatedly fails to honor UN resolutions?

Sadly yes. Mainly because the region does not accept the creation of a foreign state in it's midst.
I wonder how the US would have reacted if the Bible had cited New York as the promised land and after the war the international authorities had decreed that native New Yorkers should make way for an influx of Jewish refugees who would create their own state?
Oops... Wait a minute..?



Me too. And peace.
Perhaps it should be compulsory to walk a mile in the enemy's shoes...

Every European country the nazis entered defeated ended up committing genocide against the Jewish inhabitants. That is a fact to the tune of 6 million dead.

The nazis had many willing participants in the population. So yes I believe it and I am part of a community that still lives with the consequences of what happened to them in ww2.

Europeans were silent and in many cases hunted down Jews for the nazis.

There were fewer who worked to save Jews then those who helped with the genocide of Jews.

It should be compulsory to walk a mile in the shoes of the Jews of Europe, and in the shoes of the Jews of the middle east who were kicked out of their homes and of the Israelis who have worked to build a state since 1948.

And the Palestinians were offered a state and said no..... Nothing was stolen.

As to my country and its history. It is a history of theft from the native populations. The Europeans who first conquered the land stole it from the native populations.

Semitic peoples in the middle east are both Jewish and Palestinian and were the earliest people in the land and have a right to be there.

 

[Caladan]

Sadly yes. Mainly because the region does not accept the creation of a foreign state in it's midst.
I wonder how the US would have reacted if the Bible had cited New York as the promised land and after the war the international authorities had decreed that native New Yorkers should make way for an influx of Jewish refugees who would create their own state?

But it's not that simple is it?
All the other Middle Eastern countries are modern countries as well, with plenty of them created around the same time as Israel. Many of them just like in the case of the original UN partition plan were created without solving age old ethnic and religious tensions. Furthermore, I have no idea why it is repeated here, since its a major misconception, but the people who created Israel were not Bible thumpers. They were modern European Jews, largely secular, who worked relentlessly to solve the exclusion and persecution of European Jewry. Sure Israel is central in Jewish history and culture, but these people first and foremost sought to find a solution for their people. They were NOT on a religious crusade.
Further more. I don't know about foreign in the region. the largest group (and you can't even call it one group) of Israelis are Jews who lived in the Middle East for thousands of years, and were largely expelled from Arabic countries.
The Middle East saw the creation of dozens of states. Israel among them. Some of the Arabs of Palestine and some of the Arab governments around Israel may not have saw this favourably, but the fact is that they were unwilling for the most basic compromise, one which was internationally accepted. Internationally accepted just as the creation of their countries was... and they chose conflict. More than 60 years ago they could have accepted the partition plan, they could have accepted the creation of dozens of Middle Eastern countries, including an Israeli state. But they chose war. Eventually they are going to have to come to better terms with Israel, an establish reality in the region.
Israel has already proved itself to be the most progressive and stable country in the region. Countries which have criticized Israel have failed miserably where Israel has succeeded. Some of them have been guilty of severe human rights abuses against the Palestinians while using them to bash Israel at the same time. Many others have recently killed tens of thousands of their own people.
And in regards to a two state solution, the Palestinian right now are sharply divided into two conflicting entities: Hamas controlled Gaza, and Fatah controlled West Bank.
There are obviously issues in the region, which are way beyond the concept that Israel is a 'foreign entity' in the region. There are long feuds, ethnic tensions, and religious tensions that extend well beyond a Jewish state in the region.
My family lived in this region for centuries, and I'm not even discussing my side of the family who dried swamps in Palestine during the 19th century, but my family who lived in the region for centuries as Jews among Muslims, and possible as Jews among Babylonians, Persians, and Phoenicians.
If they don't accept us now, you can be sure that our condition was not a garden of roses as subjects of a Muslim rule.

 

[Cassiopia]

Every European country the nazis entered defeated ended up committing genocide against the Jewish inhabitants. That is a fact to the tune of 6 million dead.

The nazis had many willing participants in the population. So yes I believe it and I am part of a community that still lives with the consequences of what happened to them in ww2.

Europeans were silent and in many cases hunted down Jews for the nazis.

There were fewer who worked to save Jews then those who helped with the genocide of Jews.

I dispute these so called facts. Believing this stuff is part of the problem, part of the victim mentality which allows some Jews to believe the whole world owes them something.

I do not dispute the holocaust. The holocaust was a major crime against humanity perpetrated by the Nazis.

However I totally dispute your assertation that every occupied European country somehow went along with the holocaust or turned a blind eye to it. Europe was at war! Most people were just trying to survive or else actively fight against the Nazis. Very few people outside the Nazi regime knew what was actually happening to the Jews. They were more concerned about keeping their heads down and not getting bombed or imprisoned or tortured. When it did become known that the Jews were being systematically murdered, many non Jews (including some Germans) put their own lives at risk to help the Jews.

As to my country and its history. It is a history of theft from the native populations. The Europeans who first conquered the land stole it from the native populations.

There is a theme here isn't there? If it was bad, blame the Europeans! But you are right, the Early European settlers in America (the founders of your country and it's constitution) treated the Native Americans abysmally. That does not justify other populations doing the same thing elsewhere.

Semitic peoples in the middle east are both Jewish and Palestinian and were the earliest people in the land and have a right to be there.

I agree. And both the Jews and the Palestinians have an equal right to live in that land in peace and dignity.

 

[Pink Top Hat]

Very good post Cassiopia.


The real question is why are Jews persecuted no matter where they go? What is it they do to make their neighbours hate them? Why can they not live in peace with their neighbours?
Is it because in the bible so far back God himself condemns them, sends prophets to them and in the end he too gives up on them?

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

The real question is why are Jews persecuted no matter where they go? What is it they do to make their neighbours hate them? Why can they not live in peace with their neighbours? Is it because in the bible so far back God himself condemns them, sends prophets to them and in the end he too gives up on them?

Thin gruel from the cesspool of antisemitism brought to you courtesy of the man convinced that Nakoula Basseley Nakoula was a Mossad agent.

 

[Flankerl]

Very good post Cassiopia.


The real question is why are Jews persecuted no matter where they go? What is it they do to make their neighbours hate them? Why can they not live in peace with their neighbours?
Is it because in the bible so far back God himself condemns them, sends prophets to them and in the end he too gives up on them?

What the ****.

 

[Cassiopia]

Very good post Cassiopia.


The real question is why are Jews persecuted no matter where they go?

They have been persecuted too often, that is true but I think there are plenty of places where Jews live in peace with their neighbors.

What is it they do to make their neighbours hate them? Why can they not live in peace with their neighbours?

It is not really helpful to talk about the Jews as if they are all the same. There are good Jews and bad Jews just as there are good Christians, Muslims, Buddhists and Pagans and bad Christians, Muslims, Buddhists and Pagans. Etc.
I am sure most Jewish people get on very well with their neighbors.
If people dislike them it is often based on ignorant prejudice.

Is it because in the bible so far back God himself condemns them, sends prophets to them and in the end he too gives up on them?

I have not seen that in any Bible I have read.

But let's not get side tracked. This thread is not about Jewish people or their religion per se, this thread is about the political situation between the state of Israel and the potential state of Palestine.

 

[England my lionheart]

For all you supporters of the 2 state solution, how should it be done?

Should the Jews be kicked out/ethnically cleansed of Judea-Samaria? That's the Palestinian plan, how would one suggest them to change their minds?

Must the PA wait for "non fanatical" leaders before any peace process goes through? Should it go through with fanatical leaders in charge anyway?

Should Fatah and the PA be dismantled (along with their Al-Aqsa martyr's brigade official military wing who confirms that any peace gestures they make are lies and meant to buy time)? Should they be allowed to have whoever they want as a leader? Should they be bound to some kind of agreement? What happens if they break it?

Should Israel build a giant wall many miles long that makes the Berlin Wall look like a little fence?

Would a 2 state solution be fair since the Palestinians already have Jordan?

Should the second state be Jordan, with a simple transfer of the power from the Hashemite Tyrant to the Palestinian people who comprise the majority of this territory which sits on 80% of the Palestinian mandate and was only ever an Emirate (Province) of Mandatory Palestine until 1946?

What is a fair, effective, safe, and actually viable 2 state solution?

From an outside perspective and being realistic there isn't a peaceful solution as things stand,a two state solution on the map is unworkable IMO as is a one state solution as long as one side says "there is no solution".

 

[Shermana]

From an outside perspective and being realistic there isn't a peaceful solution as things stand,a two state solution on the map is unworkable IMO as is a one state solution as long as one side says "there is no solution".

So basically you're agreeing with me that all this talk of a two-state solution is completely unworkable, and that a one state solution in the current (and near future) setup won't work either?

Hmmmm, how do we possibly break this gordion knot then? Because time is NOT on Israel's side. Do you think Israel should take drastic measures that the liberals may not like too much to prevent total destruction? Or should Israel just resign itself to sit in quicksand to make the world happy while it suffocates?

It looks like Israel has three options: Bend over, wait until they are forced to bend over, or take drastic action. So those who are opposed to such "Drastic action" are essentially rooting for Israel to bend over.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

It looks like Israel has three options: Bend over, wait until they are forced to bend over, or take drastic action.

Or, they can stand firm against terrorism while repudiiating people like you and the cancerous effects of their xenophobia.

 

[Shermana]

Or, they can stand firm against terrorism while repudiiating people like you and the cancerous effects of their xenophobia.

You're not on the same page Jay, no amount of taking action on terrorists will sufficiently deal with the ticking demographic time bomb. Stick to the subject please, I know you're looking forward to any chance to make a personal attack, but try at least to stay on the same page, thanks. I'm not the first person to explain to you that you need to stay on the same page.

And again, I don't think you understand what "Xenophobia" means, this is the second time you've used the word incorrectly. This has nothing to do with a fear of people who are simply different, this is about a fear of people whose agenda has been to destroy your country for many decades without acceptance of your myriads of peace offers.

So then, it appears you are of the "Wait until they're forced to bend over" option?

 

[England my lionheart]

So basically you're agreeing with me that all this talk of a two-state solution is completely unworkable, and that a one state solution in the current (and near future) setup won't work either?

As it stands yes,i doubt that will change anytime soon.

Hmmmm, how do we possibly break this gordion knot then? Because time is NOT on Israel's side. Do you think Israel should take drastic measures that the liberals may not like too much to prevent total destruction? Or should Israel just resign itself to sit in quicksand to make the world happy while it suffocates?

Good question,if i was an Israeli i would prefer to watch how things unfold in Syria before committing to "drastic measures".

It looks like Israel has three options: Bend over, wait until they are forced to bend over, or take drastic action. So those who are opposed to such "Drastic action" are essentially rooting for Israel to bend over.

I think Israel has more options than that although i think they should be ready to react
with drastic measures.