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HOW MANY SONS DOES GOD HAVE??

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by best friend, Apr 4, 2004.

  1. dudley thoth

    dudley thoth Member

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    Hi there Hawkfum.

    Nowhere in the Bible does it say that Archangel Michael was God's first creation. Perhaps you are using another source?
    However, some Christians would hold that Michael is Jesus. Jehovah's Witnesses, in particular, maintain that Jesus is Michael and use it as evidence to help maintain their doctrine that Jesus is a created being and therefore not God. The Bible testifies in various places that Jesus is God.
    The doctrine of the trinity does not divide the Godhead into three. Jesus is not one third of God, Rather, he is fully God.

    For in him (Jesus) dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily. (Colossians 2:9. Literal Translation)

    Furthermore, God, in the person of Jesus, became fully human. It was as a human that he gave his life, and it was as a human that he was resurrected. It is by the power of the resurrection that Jesus becomes the firstborn (or pre-eminent) son of God.

    He (Jesus) is the head of the body, the church; who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that he be pre-eminent in all things; because all the fullness was pleased to dwell in him, and through him making peace by the blood of his cross, to reconcile all things to himself. (Colossians 1: 18-20. Literal Translation)

    The non-cannonical 'Epistle of Barnabas' is also worth quoting at this point:

    Again I will show you how the Lord speaks to us. He made a second creation in the last days. And the Lord says: "Behold I make the last things as the first." (6:13)

    The lastborn who becomes the firstborn (or pre-eminent son) is a theme found throughout the book of Genesis: see Cain and Abel (4:1-16); Ishmael and Isaac (16:12; 21:10); Esau and Jacob (25:30, 27); Zerah and Peraz (38:27-30), Manasseh and Ephraim (48:13-20). See also Saul and David (1 Samuel 10:21-24; 11:12-15; 15:26; 16:13; 2 Samuel 2:4; 5:3; Psalm 89: 20,27).

    For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. (Romans 8: 29. N.I.V)

    God Bless.
     
  2. painted wolf

    painted wolf Grey Muzzle

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    wait... how can Jesus be his own father?

    how can he pray to himself?

    If Jesus is god then why was he always refering to himself as someone elce?

    just currious

    wa:-do
     
  3. Hirohito18200

    Hirohito18200 Member

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    Painted Wolf....

    Excellent questions...

    as a Christian, I am asking those same questions to my religious leaders and getting no good answers. I don't think they have easy answers, and I wish they did. However, I think these questions have alot to do with the Trinity, more than how many sons God has....

    I think a new topic might be in order.....


    _____________________________________________________________ Welcome to the backwards, hypocritical, conservative Christian community, please take a number; you will be judged shortly.
     
  4. Hirohito18200

    Hirohito18200 Member

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    John 5
    30By myself I can do nothing; I judge only as I hear, and my judgment is just, for I seek not to please myself but him who sent me.


    Jesus is God....

    God is omnipotent, we hear that all the time...

    How can Jesus not be able to do all things if he is God? I don't understand this. Also, when Jesus prays right before he is crucified, for his deliverance, God obviously says no. (we saw that much in The Passion). How then, could God, not only pray to himself, but deny himself the request. Also, if Jesus came down to earth just to die, then why would he pray to not die?

    Any answers would be Spiffy :goodjob:
     
  5. dudley thoth

    dudley thoth Member

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    Painted wolf's questions are not out of place. The author of the Islamic article was also questioning Jesus' Divinity.
     
  6. Hirohito18200

    Hirohito18200 Member

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    Gah, sorry for the misunderstanding. :oops:


    I didn't say his comments were out of place or anything like that. I did not mean it in that manner either.

    I simply meant that argument is getting more in to the Trinity, and its workings, then the divinity of Jesus, although the two are very closely related.

    Chao
     
  7. dudley thoth

    dudley thoth Member

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    Thas'alright mate. I wasn't having a go at you. 8)

    I didn't mean to sound harsh. sorry 'bout that. :mrgreen:

    It's more about the alleged human incarnation of God than the Trinity though.
     
  8. inca

    inca Active Member

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    Not only Jehovah's Witnesses think Arcangel was the first creation, other sectarian groups but it's due to the fact the title only appears in singular in the Bible and I don't think we need to write every single text when the reference is linked to Christ as arcangel. The name Mikael means in fact "who is like God" and Jewish myths say he has an invisible face to reflect God's image which is something reminding us what Paul says about Christ being the image of His Father. That also deals with Moses being a "god" in the presence of the pharaoh and Christ transfiguration with Moses and Eliah. Read please Acts 7:30, 35, 38; Exodus 7:1; 2 Corinthians 3:7-18; compare Daniel 12:1-3 with Mathew 24:15-31 inclusive; 1 Tessalonicenses 4:15-17; 2 Tessalonicenses 1:7,8; 1 Timothy 5:21. In Apocalipsis (specially 12) the same character is the baby-king, the lamb to be sacrificed, the Judah lion, the arcangel Mikail who fights the reptil-dragon-snake; Judas 9,10 mentions even a fight with that God's ambassador against Satan himself. It was Samael's Satan trick the saying the existing of several arcangels while we know the term is only in singular in the Bible. It was an indirect way to deceive and portray himself as an arcangel as well.
    www.eon.com.br/arcanjos.htm
    Yet, a better understanding indicates Satan was a mere cherub (Ezekiel 28) in Eden trying to compete with the unique arcangel, Mikael. That was an arrogant sin ...among other sins.
     
  9. inca

    inca Active Member

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  10. anders

    anders Well-Known Member

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    Ezekiel 28 addresses the prince of Tyrus. There is no way to find a reference to Satan or Michael. (Michael is a late invention; he is not mentioned in OT until in the very late book of Daniel.) The "cherub" in v. 14 is a metaphor for the prince of Tyrus, as is clearly seen in the section introduction in v. 12: "... the king of Tyrus, and say unto him ..." KJV has (v. 14) "Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth". Another interpretation of the Hebrew text in v. 14 is "You were together with cherubs", which I find makes better sense. So, there is no reference to Michael or Satan here.
     
  11. Hirohito18200

    Hirohito18200 Member

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    Ocelot, can you prove that becasue the source is Islamic that it has no credibility? If not, then I encourage you to at least edit your post, as it is blatent intolerance. Simply because if is of another religion does not necesarily damage the credibility, only change your perspective in viewing it.
     
  12. Green Gaia

    Green Gaia Veteran Member

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    Moving to Debates...
     
  13. anders

    anders Well-Known Member

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    I have shown in a previous post that the Gospels of Mary and of Peter were written sufficiently long before Islam. On the Gospel of Barnabas, I just found this:

    "In contrast to Muslim enthusiasm for the work, Christian apologists have always dismissed it as a worthless or even "obnoxious" forgery. This is a dogmatic view driven by anti-Muslim concerns, not an objective analysis of the text. The work is a "forgery", yes, - it is written in the Middle Ages and it purports to be written by an Apostle of Jesus - but on what did the forger base it? Surprisingly, it has much to offer the open-minded student of early Christianity, the historical Jesus and related historico-literary studies etc.

    There are more questions than answers regarding the authorship, origins, intent, content and sources of the medieval Gospel of Barnabas. It is not a widely known work and it has not been subject to much study. It is hoped that these pages will help remove the work from the arena of Christian/Muslim polemic and provide impetus for new, fresh investigations into its many mysteries.

    Recent research... indicates a more ancient origin for parts of the Gospel. We find traces in it of an early Judeo-Christian tradition from Syria or Palestine, which is related to that of the so-called Pseudo-Clementines of early Christian times. This certainly increases the value of the Gospel of Barnabas as a source for our understanding of early Christianity and of early asceticism...the Islamic traits certainly belong to the final recension."

    Back on topic, I would like to summarise as follows: Because of the use of kinship terms in Semitic languages, the words in the Hebrew/Aramaic texts do not tell us when a true blood relationship, a metaphor or an ownership is meant when "daughter", "son", "mother" or "father" is written.
     
  14. dudley thoth

    dudley thoth Member

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    Concerning the Gospel of Barnabas. Thank you Anders for looking into it a bit more deeply than myself (admittedly My info' came from a biased source).

    Did you come across the text itself?
    I think I'd like to read it.
     
  15. anders

    anders Well-Known Member

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  16. SpiritualSon

    SpiritualSon Member

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    All the angels are God's children,because they are images and likeness of Him.This is the reason they are called little gods.Like Father,like children.They don't consider themselves as gods.They follow one God higher than themselves.

    Harry
     
  17. true blood

    true blood Active Member

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    I read the link and would like to point out that "'When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?" Job 38:7." Is actually all of gods angels shouting for joy. Job 38:1-7 is during the creating period of everything.

    So add another several thousands sons of Gods aka angels.
     
  18. SpiritualSon

    SpiritualSon Member

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    How many children God has gives reason why His name is sometime is called Elohim,because the name means Father of all.The Catholic Church believes it's meant for three Divine persons. "Let us make man"

    the Hebrew word for God is Elohim, which is a plural construction. It is a "plural of eminence" used for the one God,but only when the Divine Truth is referred to,for truth displays the manifold powers and aspects of God. God's truth can be express in many ways as there are angels in heaven.

    Harry
     
  19. anders

    anders Well-Known Member

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    Wrong, SpiitulSon.

    Elohim means "Gods". You can't make that mean "Father of all". It is, however, not impossible that it is used as a "plural of eminence". Whether the "real meaning" (if any) is "god" or "gods" is impossible to say from the word alone. The same interpretation problem exists in Gen. 1. The Hebrew text says, "... created the heavens and the earth." The Bible literally and clearly says that there were several heavens.
     
  20. true blood

    true blood Active Member

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    and several earths aka planets..
     
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