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Well-Known Member
I suppose it could be argued that the planets are included in the "heavens", but the Genesis text is very clear on the singular "the earth"...
anders said:
I suppose it could be argued that the planets are included in the "heavens", but the Genesis text is very clear on the singular "the earth"...

The Divine that is meant by "God" is the Divine Existere in heaven, because the Divine in heaven is in many.

Therefore in the Hebrew language,God is called "Elohim," in the plural.For the same reason angels are called gods, not that they are gods,but because the Divine of the Lord that is in them is meant by "God." (That in the Word the Lord is called Jehovah from Esse or Essence, and God from Existere or Existence.

Also that the Divine Esse is Divine good, and that the Divine Existere is Divine truth.In general, that good is esse, and truth is existere therefrom.

That angels are called gods from the reception of Divine truth proceeding from the Divine good of the Lord.That Divine truth united to Divine good in heaven, is called, in one phrase, Divine truth.

Genesis 33

And he called it El Elohe Israel. That this signifies from the Divine Spiritual (namely, interior worship), is evident from the signification of "El Elohe" (explained in what follows); and from the signification of "Israel," as being the spiritua. As regards what has been said from verse 17 of this chapter thus far, the case is this: In this chapter in the supreme sense the subject treated of is the Lord, how He made His natural Divine.

But as the things which exist in the supreme sense concerning the Lord surpass the ideas of man's thought (for they are Divine), I may illustrate them by such things as fall more nearly into the ideas, namely, by the manner in which the Lord regenerates man's natural.

For in the internal sense the regeneration of man as to his natural is also here treated of, because the regeneration of man is an image of the glorification of the Lord.

For the Lord glorified Himself, that is, made Himself Divine, according to Divine order. According to such order He also regenerates man,that is, makes him celestial and spiritual.

From myself: By the man become spiritual and celestial he become a little god. Such men can heal the sick.Can make the blind see.The lame walk.

Here it is explained how He makes man spiritual, for "Israel" signifies the spiritual man.

The spiritual man is not the interior rational man, but the interior natural. The interior rational man is what is called the celestial man.

What the difference is between the spiritual and the celestial man has already been frequently stated.

A man is made spiritual by having the truths in him conjoined with good or faith conjoin with good works, the things of faith conjoined with those of charity,and this in his natural. Exterior truths are there first conjoined with good,and afterwards interior truths.

The conjunction of exterior truths in the natural was treated of in this chapter from verses 1 to 17.The conjunction of interior truths with good, from verse 17 to the end.

Interior truths are not conjoined with good in any other way than by enlightenment flowing in through the internal man into the external man. From this enlightenment Divine truths are manifest only in a general manner, comparatively as innumerable objects are seen by the eye as one obscure thing without distinction.

This enlightenment from which truths are manifest only in a general manner, was signified by Esau's words to Jacob, "Let me set I pray with thee of the people that are with me;" and by Jacob's answer, "Wherefore is this? Let me find grace in thine eyes".

That the spiritual man is relatively in obscurity. It is this spiritual man who is represented by Israel.

The spiritual man is so called from the fact that the light of heaven, in which is intelligence and wisdom, flows into those things in man which are of the light of the world, and causes the things which are of the light of heaven to be represented in those which are of the light of the world, and thereby to correspond.

For regarded in itself the spiritual is the Divine light itself which is from the Lord, consequently it is the intelligence of truth and the wisdom thence derived.

But with the spiritual man this light falls into the things which are of faith in him, and which he believes to be true.Whereas with the celestial man it falls into the good of love.

But although these things are clear to those who are in the light of heaven, they are nevertheless obscure to those who are in the light of the world, to most people at this day, and possibly so obscure as to be scarcely intelligible,and yet as they are treated of in the internal sense, and are of such a nature, the opening of them is not to be dispensed with.The time is coming when there will be enlightenment.

The reason why the altar was called El Elohe Israel, and by it was signified interior worship from the Divine Spiritual, is that in the supreme sense "El Elohe" is the same as the Divine Spiritual, and so also is "Israel."

(That "Israel" denotes the Lord as to the Divine Spiritual, and in the representative sense the Lord's spiritual church, or what is the same, the man who is spiritual.

In the original tongue "El Elohe" means "God God," and strictly according to the words, "God of gods." In the Word, Jehovah or the Lord is in many places called "El," in the singular, also "Eloah;" and He is likewise called "Elohim," in the plural; sometimes both in one verse, or in one series.

He who is not acquainted with the internal sense of the Word cannot know why this is so. That "El" involves one thing, and "Eloah" another, and "Elohim" another, everyone may judge from the fact that the Word is Divine, that is, derives its origin from the Divine, and that it is thereby inspired as to all the words, nay, as to the least point of all.

What "El" involves when mentioned, and what "Elohim," may be seen from what has been occasionally shown above, namely, that "El Elohim" or "God" is mentioned when truth is treated of.

Hence it is that by "El" and "Elohim" in the supreme sense is signified the Divine Spiritual, for this is the same as the Divine truth, but with the difference that by "El" is signified truth in the will and act, which is the same as the good of truth.

The expression "Elohim" is used in the plural, because by Divine Truth are meant all truths which are from the Lord.

Hence also angels are sometimes called in the Word "Elohim" or "gods", as will also appear from the passages adduced from the Word below.

Now as in the supreme sense "El" and "Elohim" signify the Lord as to truth, they also signify Him as to power.

For truth is that of which power is predicated, because good acts by truth when it exerts power. Therefore wherever power from truth is treated of in the Word, the Lord is called "El" and "Elohim," that is, "God."

Hence also it is that in the original language "El" also signifies one who is powerful. That "El" and "Elohim," or "God," are mentioned in the Word where the Divine Spiritual is treated of, or what is the same, the Divine truth, and hence the Divine power, may be still more evident from the following passages.

In Moses:
God said unto Israel in the visions of the night, I am the God of gods [El Elohe] of thy father; fear not to go down into Egypt, for I will there make of thee a great nation (Gen. 46:2-3).

As these words were spoken to Israel, whom He would make a great nation, and thus the subject treated of is truth and its power, it is here said "El Elohe," which in the proximate sense signifies "God of gods."

That in the proximate sense "Elohim" denotes "gods," because predicated of truths and the derived power, is also evident in the same:
Jacob built there an altar, and called the place El-Beth-El, because there the Elohim were revealed unto him, when he fled before his brother (Gen. 35:7).

And also elsewhere:
Jehovah your God, He is God of gods and Lord of lords, the great God [El], powerful and formidable (Deut. 10:17).

where "God of gods" is expressed by "Elohe @Elohim," and afterwards "God" by "El," to whom greatness and power are ascribed.

In David:
Jehovah is a great God [El], and a great King above all gods [Elohim]. In His hand are the searchings out of the earth;and the strengths of the mountains are His (Ps.95:3-4)

Here "God" or "El" is used because the subject treated of is the Divine Truth and the derivative power; and also "gods," because the subject treated of is also the truths thence derived; for in the internal sense a "king" signifies truth.

Hence it is evident what a "great king above all gods" involves. The "searchings out of the earth" also denote the truths of the church, which are called the "strengths of the mountains" from the power from this good.

In the same:
Who in heaven shall compare himself to Jehovah? Who among the sons of the gods [Elim] shall be likened to Jehovah ? God [El] mighty in the secret of the holy ones. O Jehovah God Zebaoth, who is as Thou the strong Jah? (Ps.89:6-8).

Here the "sons of the gods" or "of Elim," denote truths Divine, of which it is evident that power is predicated.For it is said a "God [El] mighty, Jehovah God of Armies, who is strong as Thou?"

So in another place in David:
Give unto Jehovah, O ye sons of the gods, give unto Jehovah glory and strength (Ps. 29:1).

In Moses:
They fell upon their faces, and said, God of gods [El Elohe] of the spirits of all flesh (Num. 14:22).

In David:
I said, ye are gods [Elohim] and ye are all sons of the Most High (Ps. 82:6)( John 10:34).

where they are called "gods" from truths, for "sons" are truths.
Confess ye to the God of gods [Elohe Elohim]; confess ye to the Lord of lords (Ps. 136:2-3).

In Daniel:
The king will act according to his own pleasure,and will puff himself up, and will exalt himself above every god [El], and above the God of gods [El Elohim] will speak wondrous things (Dan. 11:36).

from this it is evident that in the proximate sense "El Elohe" is "God of gods," and that in the internal sense "gods" are predicated of the truths which are from the Lord.

It is said "El," or "God," in the singular, where the subject treated of is the power which is from the Divine truth, or what is the same, from the Lord's Divine Spiritual, as may be seen from the following passages.

In Moses:
Let my hand be as God [El] to do evil to thee (Gen. 31:29).

And again:
Neither is there a hand for God [El] (Deut. 28:32).

And in Micah:
Neither is there a hand for God (Micah 2:1).
"A hand for God" denotes that there may be power. (That "hand" denotes power; and that "hand" is predicated of truth, n. 3091.)

In David:
I will set his hand also in the sea, and his right hand in the rivers; He shall call Me, Thou my Father, my God [El], the rock of my salvation (Ps. 89:25-26).

speaking of power from truths. Again:
The wicked saith in his heart, God [El] hath forgotten,He hath hidden His faces,He will never see: arise, Jehovah God [El], lift up Thy hand wherefore doth the wicked despise God [Elohim]? (Ps. 10:11-13);
denoting the same.

Jehovah is my rock,and my fortress,and my deliverer;my God [El], my rock (Ps.18:2).

where power is treated of.

In Isaiah:
The residue shall return, the residue of Jacob, to the powerful God [El](Isa.10:21).

Unto us a Child is born, unto us a Son is given; and the government shall be upon His shoulder; and His name shall be called, Wonderful, Counselor, God (El), Mighty, Father of Eternity, Prince of Peace (Isa. 9:6).

Behold the God [El] of my salvation, I will trust, and not be afraid; for He is my strength (Isa. 12:2).

I am God [El] yea, from this day, I am He, and there is none that can rescue out of My hand, I am doing, and who shall withdraw it? (Isa. 43:12-13).

said of power. In Jeremiah:
God [El] the great, the powerful, whose name is Jehovah of Armies (Jer. 32:18).

In the second book of Samuel:
With my God [El] I will leap over a wall. God [El], His way is perfect, the discourse of Jehovah is pure. Who is God [El] save Jehovah? Who is a rock save our God [Elohim] ? God [El] is the strength of my refuge (2 Sam. 22:30-33).

In Moses:
God [El] is not a man that He should lie, or the son of man that He should repent; hath He said, and shall He not do ? or hath He spoken, and shall He not establish? He brought them forth out of Egypt, He hath as it were the strengths of a unicorn; in that time it shall be said to Jacob and Israel, What hath God [El] wrought? (Num. 23:19, 22-23);
where in the internal sense power and truth are treated of.

And again:
God [El] who brought him forth out of Egypt; He hath as it were the strengths of a unicorn; He shall consume the nations His enemies, and shall break their bones, and shall crush his darts (Num. 24:8).

That "horns" and "strengths of a unicorn" signify the power of truth from good. Not to mention many other passages. As most things in the Word have also an opposite sense, so also have "god" and "gods," which names are used when falsity and power from falsity are treated of; as in Ezekiel:
The gods [Elim] of the strong shall speak to him in the midst of hell (Ezek. 32:21).

In Isaiah:
Ye have been in heat in the gods [Elim] under every green tree (Isa. 57:5).



Well-Known Member
My interpretation is, that "Israel" in Gen 33 can have only one meaning, namely Jacob with his new name. You cannot separate "El Elohim" from "Israel". It is clear from the text that El Elohim Israel means "God, Israel's God". God of gods would have been El ha-Elohim, as it is written in Deut 10:17.

I don't understand on what grounds you state "The spiritual man is not the interior rational man, but the interior natural. The interior rational man is what is called the celestial man," and I don't understand what you mean. I am sure that there are no passages in the Bible where man is classified that way.

It is interesting that you sometimes have to interpret elohim as meaning angels, in order not to admit that the OT in several places clearly states that there are more gods than God. No wonder then that there are many sons of God.
I don't understand on what grounds you state "The spiritual man is not the interior rational man, but the interior natural. The interior rational man is what is called the celestial man," and I don't understand what you mean. I am sure that there are no passages in the Bible where man is classified that way.

As there are infinite varieties in heaven,and no one society nor any one angel is exactly like any other, there are in heaven general,specific, and particular divisions.

The general division is into two kingdoms, the specific into three heavens, and the particular into innumerable societies. Each of these will be treated of in what follows.The general division is said to be into kingdoms, because heaven is called "the kingdom of God."

There are angels that receive more interiorly the Divine that goes forth from the Lord, and others that receive it less interiorly.The former are called celestial angels, and the latter spiritual angels.

Because of this difference heaven is divided into two kingdoms, one called the Celestial Kingdom, the other the Spiritual Kingdom.

As the angels that constitute the celestial kingdom receive the Divine of the Lord more interiorly they are called interior and also higher angels; and for the same reason the heavens that they constitute are called interior and higher heavens. They are called higher and lower, because these terms designate what is interior and what is exterior.

The love in which those are, who are in the celestial kingdom is called celestial love, and the love in which those are who are in the spiritual kingdom is called spiritual love. Celestial love is love to the Lord, and spiritual love is love towards the neighbor.

And as all good pertains to love (for good to any one is what he loves) the good also of the other kingdom is called celestial, and the good of the other spiritual. Evidently, then, the two kingdoms are distinguished from each other in the same way as good of love to the Lord is distinguished from good of love towards the neighbor. And as the good of love to the Lord is an interior good, and that love is interior love, so the celestial angels are interior angels, and are called higher angels.

The celestial kingdom is called also the Lord's priestly kingdom, and in the Word "His dwelling-place;" while the spiritual kingdom is called His royal kingdom, and in the Word "His throne." And from the celestial Divine the Lord in the world was called "Jesus," while from the spiritual Divine He was called "Christ."

The angels in the Lord's celestial kingdom, from their more interior reception of the Divine of the Lord, far excel in wisdom and glory the angels that are in His spiritual kingdom.

For they are in love to the Lord, and consequently are nearer and more closely conjoined to Him. These angels are such because they have received and continue to receive Divine truths at once in their life, and not first in memory and thought, as the spiritual angels do. The same with the celestial and spiritual man.

Consequently they have Divine truths written in their hearts, and they perceive them, and as it were see them, in themselves; nor do they ever reason about them whether they are true or not. They are such as are described in Jeremiah:-

I will put my law in their mind, and will write it in their heart. They shall teach no more every one his friend and every one his brother, saying, Know ye Jehovah. They shall know Me, from the least of them even to the greatest of them (xxxi. 33,34).

And they are called in Isaiah:-
Taught of Jehovah (liv. 13). That the "taught of Jehovah" are those who are taught by the Lord He Himself teaches in John (vi. 45, 46).

It has been said that these angels have wisdom and glory above others for the reason that they have received and continue to receive Divine truths at once in their life.

For as soon as they hear Divine truths, they will and do them, instead of storing them up in the memory and afterwards considering whether they are true.

They know at once by influx from the Lord whether the truth they hear is true.For the Lord flows directly into man's willing, but mediately through his willing into his thinking. Or what is the same, the Lord flows directly into good, but mediately through good into truth.

That is called good which belongs to the will and action therefrom, while that is called truth that belongs to the memory and to the thought therefrom.

Moreover, every truth is turned into good and implanted in love as soon as it enters into the will; but so long as truth remains in the memory and in the thought therefrom it does not become good, nor does it live, nor is it appropriated to man, since man is a man from his will and understanding therefrom, and not from his understanding separated from his will.

Because of this difference between the angels of the celestial kingdom and the angels of the spiritual kingdom they are not together, and have no intercourse with each other.

They are ablem to communicate only through intermediate angelic societies, which are called celestial-spiritual. Through these the celestial kingdom flows into the spiritual and from this it comes to pass that although heaven is divided into two kingdoms it nevertheless makes one. The Lord always provides such intermediate angels through whom there is communication and conjunction.

anders said:
Like I thought, you can't find one single verse in the Bible to support your views.

God standeth in the assembly of God, He shall judge in the midst of the gods, I said, Ye are gods, and all of you sons of the Most High (Ps.82:1,6)

Angels and man are nothing but truth and good from the Lord. Divine Truth and Divine Good is what God is. Angels and men are good and truth from Him.Therefore they are called His children.There are called little gods.

There is none like Thee among the gods,O Lord (Ps. 86:8). Among the gods. Among the gods,means among angels and men.

Thou, Jehovah, art high above all the earth; Thou art exalted exceedingly above all gods (Ps.97:9). Jehovah God is exalted above angels and men.

I know that Jehovah is great, and that our Lord is above all gods (Ps. 135:5). Above angels and men.

It is not the Greek gods or false gods of the nations these verse are meant by, but angels and men who are in the Lord and the Lord in them.

Gah, sorry for the misunderstanding. :oops:

I didn't say his comments were out of place or anything like that. I did not mean it in that manner either.

I simply meant that argument is getting more in to the Trinity, and its workings, then the divinity of Jesus, although the two are very closely related.

Hirohito18200 said:
Gah, sorry for the misunderstanding. :oops:

I didn't say his comments were out of place or anything like that. I did not mean it in that manner either.

I simply meant that argument is getting more in to the Trinity, and its workings, then the divinity of Jesus, although the two are very closely related.


Thas'alright mate. I wasn't having a go at you. 8)

I didn't mean to sound harsh. sorry 'bout that. :mrgreen:

It's more about the alleged human incarnation of God than the Trinity though.


Active Member
Not only Jehovah's Witnesses think Arcangel was the first creation, other sectarian groups but it's due to the fact the title only appears in singular in the Bible and I don't think we need to write every single text when the reference is linked to Christ as arcangel. The name Mikael means in fact "who is like God" and Jewish myths say he has an invisible face to reflect God's image which is something reminding us what Paul says about Christ being the image of His Father. That also deals with Moses being a "god" in the presence of the pharaoh and Christ transfiguration with Moses and Eliah. Read please Acts 7:30, 35, 38; Exodus 7:1; 2 Corinthians 3:7-18; compare Daniel 12:1-3 with Mathew 24:15-31 inclusive; 1 Tessalonicenses 4:15-17; 2 Tessalonicenses 1:7,8; 1 Timothy 5:21. In Apocalipsis (specially 12) the same character is the baby-king, the lamb to be sacrificed, the Judah lion, the arcangel Mikail who fights the reptil-dragon-snake; Judas 9,10 mentions even a fight with that God's ambassador against Satan himself. It was Samael's Satan trick the saying the existing of several arcangels while we know the term is only in singular in the Bible. It was an indirect way to deceive and portray himself as an arcangel as well.
Yet, a better understanding indicates Satan was a mere cherub (Ezekiel 28) in Eden trying to compete with the unique arcangel, Mikael. That was an arrogant sin ...among other sins.


Well-Known Member
Ezekiel 28 addresses the prince of Tyrus. There is no way to find a reference to Satan or Michael. (Michael is a late invention; he is not mentioned in OT until in the very late book of Daniel.) The "cherub" in v. 14 is a metaphor for the prince of Tyrus, as is clearly seen in the section introduction in v. 12: "... the king of Tyrus, and say unto him ..." KJV has (v. 14) "Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth". Another interpretation of the Hebrew text in v. 14 is "You were together with cherubs", which I find makes better sense. So, there is no reference to Michael or Satan here.
The Ocelot said:
um you do realise this is islamic propoganda?

Yes, and that is why it has no credibility. First of all, they know what God means. But any way they can they will try to distort it. You know what Satan will try to do. There is no evidence that these books like "Barnabas", "Mary", or "Peter" were written by these people themselves. Bibles do not include them because they contain propoganda like this. For all we know, a Muslim could have written them.

Don't believe everything you see.

The Ocelot

Ocelot, can you prove that becasue the source is Islamic that it has no credibility? If not, then I encourage you to at least edit your post, as it is blatent intolerance. Simply because if is of another religion does not necesarily damage the credibility, only change your perspective in viewing it.


Well-Known Member
I have shown in a previous post that the Gospels of Mary and of Peter were written sufficiently long before Islam. On the Gospel of Barnabas, I just found this:

"In contrast to Muslim enthusiasm for the work, Christian apologists have always dismissed it as a worthless or even "obnoxious" forgery. This is a dogmatic view driven by anti-Muslim concerns, not an objective analysis of the text. The work is a "forgery", yes, - it is written in the Middle Ages and it purports to be written by an Apostle of Jesus - but on what did the forger base it? Surprisingly, it has much to offer the open-minded student of early Christianity, the historical Jesus and related historico-literary studies etc.

There are more questions than answers regarding the authorship, origins, intent, content and sources of the medieval Gospel of Barnabas. It is not a widely known work and it has not been subject to much study. It is hoped that these pages will help remove the work from the arena of Christian/Muslim polemic and provide impetus for new, fresh investigations into its many mysteries.

Recent research... indicates a more ancient origin for parts of the Gospel. We find traces in it of an early Judeo-Christian tradition from Syria or Palestine, which is related to that of the so-called Pseudo-Clementines of early Christian times. This certainly increases the value of the Gospel of Barnabas as a source for our understanding of early Christianity and of early asceticism...the Islamic traits certainly belong to the final recension."

Back on topic, I would like to summarise as follows: Because of the use of kinship terms in Semitic languages, the words in the Hebrew/Aramaic texts do not tell us when a true blood relationship, a metaphor or an ownership is meant when "daughter", "son", "mother" or "father" is written.
Concerning the Gospel of Barnabas. Thank you Anders for looking into it a bit more deeply than myself (admittedly My info' came from a biased source).

Did you come across the text itself?
I think I'd like to read it.

true blood

Active Member
I read the link and would like to point out that "'When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?" Job 38:7." Is actually all of gods angels shouting for joy. Job 38:1-7 is during the creating period of everything.

So add another several thousands sons of Gods aka angels.
true blood said:
I read the link and would like to point out that "'When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?" Job 38:7." Is actually all of gods angels shouting for joy. Job 38:1-7 is during the creating period of everything.

So add another several thousands sons of Gods aka angels.

How many children God has gives reason why His name is sometime is called Elohim,because the name means Father of all.The Catholic Church believes it's meant for three Divine persons. "Let us make man"

the Hebrew word for God is Elohim, which is a plural construction. It is a "plural of eminence" used for the one God,but only when the Divine Truth is referred to,for truth displays the manifold powers and aspects of God. God's truth can be express in many ways as there are angels in heaven.