How in the world can ANYBODY think the Jews and Christians have the same god, that Jesus is messiah?

[Kolibri]

Jesus mother Mary was a Levi. That line goes back to Abraham. If Jews do not believe in Jesus, why do they believe in Mary?
Jesus father was God. God is not descended from any human...but he did create all
Where does it say in the scriptures the line of descent has to be from the male only?

No, Mary's relative Elizabeth was of the tribe of Levi, that does not mean that she was. Being the daughter of Heli, Mary was of the tribe of Judah. (Luke 3:23) As Romans 1:3 states, Jesus "came to be from the offspring of David according to the flesh." His natural decent was of David but not from the royal line. It was by his adoption by Joseph that he inherited the legal right to the throne. Adoption does allow for a transfer of the inheritance and Jesus was credited as his firstborn as he was the first child born into the family.

 

[Domenic]

No, Mary's relative Elizabeth was of the tribe of Levi, that does not mean that she was. Being the daughter of Heli, Mary was of the tribe of Judah. (Luke 3:23) As Romans 1:3 states, Jesus "came to be from the offspring of David according to the flesh." His natural decent was of David but not from the royal line. It was by his adoption by Joseph that he inherited the legal right to the throne. Adoption does allow for a transfer of the inheritance and Jesus was credited as his firstborn as he was the first child born into the family.

You make a very good point. I stand corrected.

 

[Harmonious]

No, Mary's relative Elizabeth was of the tribe of Levi, that does not mean that she was. Being the daughter of Heli, Mary was of the tribe of Judah. (Luke 3:23) As Romans 1:3 states, Jesus "came to be from the offspring of David according to the flesh." His natural decent was of David but not from the royal line. It was by his adoption by Joseph that he inherited the legal right to the throne.

No, he would NOT have the legal right to the throne.

Adoption does allow for a transfer of the inheritance

As far as property is considered, sure. But not as far as TRIBE integration, and that has nothing to do with the adoptive father's willingness to give to the adopted son.

According to Jewish law (and this has been since there have been tribes, as with the daughters of Zelophchad in Numbers), the tribe that a son is born to doesn't transfer. Daughters transfer to whomever they marry, with a few exceptions, like if a woman who is prohibited from marrying a Cohen actually marries a Cohen... she doesn't acquire his tribe for herself or their kids.

If a Cohen adopts a kid from Binyamin, the son can be beloved, and participate in all household everything. But the adopted son will NOT be permitted privileges that only belong to Cohanim. During Temple times, the adopted son would not be permitted to perform the Temple service. And now, the adopted son from Binyamin of a Cohen would not be permitted to give the Priestly Blessing.

And the same would be true in reverse. If a Jew of an unknown tribe, or Yehuda, or Binyamin adopted a Cohen, the tribe would not be passed along. The kid would keep the rights, privileges, and responsibilities he was born with.

 

[Harmonious]

So... If Joseph was not Jesus' biological father, then Jesus would not inherit the right to the throne.

 

[Harmonious]

And the same would be true in reverse. If a Jew of an unknown tribe, or Yehuda, or Binyamin adopted a Cohen, the tribe would not be passed along. The kid would keep the rights, privileges, and responsibilities he was born with.

Just as a Cohen and a non-Cohen couldn't pass on their tribal affiliations to each other, the same is true with the OTHER tribes.

 

[Kolibri]

No, he would NOT have the legal right to the throne.
As far as property is considered, sure. But not as far as TRIBE integration, and that has nothing to do with the adoptive father's willingness to give to the adopted son.

According to Jewish law (and this has been since there have been tribes, as with the daughters of Zelophchad in Numbers), the tribe that a son is born to doesn't transfer. Daughters transfer to whomever they marry, with a few exceptions, like if a woman who is prohibited from marrying a Cohen actually marries a Cohen... she doesn't acquire his tribe for herself or their kids.

If a Cohen adopts a kid from Binyamin, the son can be beloved, and participate in all household everything. But the adopted son will NOT be permitted privileges that only belong to Cohanim. During Temple times, the adopted son would not be permitted to perform the Temple service. And now, the adopted son from Binyamin of a Cohen would not be permitted to give the Priestly Blessing.

And the same would be true in reverse. If a Jew of an unknown tribe, or Yehuda, or Binyamin adopted a Cohen, the tribe would not be passed along. The kid would keep the rights, privileges, and responsibilities he was born with.

Evidently Matthew's account was the genealogical records through Joseph. If Jesus was legally registered as if his son in the records, then as far as human records go, would this not be legally binding?

 

[rosends]

Evidently Matthew's account was the genealogical records through Joseph. If Jesus was legally registered as if his son in the records, then as far as human records go, would this not be legally binding?

The position as king of Israel is not a legal position only, but one conforming to particular religious strictures and qualifications.

 

[Kolibri]

The position as king of Israel is not a legal position only, but one conforming to particular religious strictures and qualifications.

(Being over-technical, the "Kings of Israel" were not strictly genealogical.) And, the "Kings of Judah" did not have a very good tract record regarding their relationships with Jehovah either. Is it not exactly the person's relationship with our heavenly Father that determines if God approves him as king along with the legal right via the promise given to David?

What religious strictures and qualifications do you have in mind?

 

[Harmonious]

(Being over-technical, the "Kings of Israel" were not strictly genealogical.) And, the "Kings of Judah" did not have a very good tract record regarding their relationships with Jehovah either. Is it not exactly the person's relationship with our heavenly Father that determines if God approves him as king along with the legal right via the promise given to David?

Only in part. And while there were very sinful kings, there were also very righteous kings.

What religious strictures and qualifications do you have in mind?

I'm not sure how to explain this. For all of his sinfulness, King Ahaz, son of King Jotham, was the rightful king of Judea, and was king because of Torah law. King Alexander Yannai, one of the more famous Hasmonean kings (during the Second Temple, several generations after the events of the first Chanuka), was not.

 

[Kolibri]

I'm not sure how to explain this. For all of his sinfulness, King Ahaz, son of King Jotham, was the rightful king, and was king because of Torah law. King Alexander Yannai, one of the more famous Hasmonean kings (during the Second Temple, several generations after the events of the first Chanuka), was not.

From a Jewish perspective, does the immense tree dream of King Nebuchadnezzar have a larger fulfillment in the restoration of the kings in the line of David?

I know that in regards Jerusalem's last king, Zedekiah, Ezekiel quoted Jehovah as saying: "Remove the turban, and take off the crown. This will not remain the same. Raise up the low one, and bring low the high one. A ruin, a ruin, a ruin I will make it. And it will not belong to anyone until the one who has the legal right comes, and I will give it to him." (Eze 21:26,27)

Jehovah's Witnesses link this "raise up the low one" to the banded tree dream via Daniel 4:17.

"This is by the decree of watchers, and the request is by the word of the holy ones, so that people living may know that the Most High is Ruler in the kingdom of mankind and that he gives it to whomever he wants, and he sets up over it even the lowliest of men."

 

[Harmonious]

From a Jewish perspective, does the immense tree dream of King Nebuchadnezzar have a larger fulfillment in the restoration of the kings in the line of David?

Yes.

There are people today who are from the proper lineage, and who actually know who they are. I know a few in real life. (On a different message board, I know someone who is from the proper lineage. He also chooses to be a Pentecostal Christian.)

But there are folks out there who know who they are, and some of them are training to learn so that, should they be called upon, they could indeed take up the mantle of King of the Jews.

I know that in regards Jerusalem's last king, Zedekiah, Ezekiel quoted Jehovah as saying: "Remove the turban, and take off the crown. This will not remain the same. Raise up the low one, and bring low the high one. A ruin, a ruin, a ruin I will make it. And it will not belong to anyone until the one who has the legal right comes, and I will give it to him." (Eze 21:26,27)

His sons were killed, and he was blinded and exiled. But there are other people from the family who qualified. Actually, Isaiah himself was a first cousin to King Uzziah. There were people in the royal family who were available.

Jehovah's Witnesses link this "raise up the low one" to the banded tree dream via Daniel 4:17.

"This is by the decree of watchers, and the request is by the word of the holy ones, so that people living may know that the Most High is Ruler in the kingdom of mankind and that he gives it to whomever he wants, and he sets up over it even the lowliest of men."

I don't know what to tell you about this.

 

[Kolibri]

I don't know what to tell you about this.

I think you already did. The banded tree dream was part of Daniel chapter 4. Which was the tie-in. I just did not want to go farther with this w/o knowing if we had a common ground in understanding that one thing was connected to the other.

 

[rosends]

(Being over-technical, the "Kings of Israel" were not strictly genealogical.) And, the "Kings of Judah" did not have a very good tract record regarding their relationships with Jehovah either. Is it not exactly the person's relationship with our heavenly Father that determines if God approves him as king along with the legal right via the promise given to David?

What religious strictures and qualifications do you have in mind?

There were kings who were good and who were bad. In fact, there were some who took the throne and some to whom the throne was properly given. But a proper king had to be from a particular tribe and had to be anointed with particular oil, had to carry a torah that he wrote with him, had to act as a spiritual leader in conjunction with the high priest and/or a prophet, and had to follow a series of laws specific to the king.

 

[Kolibri]

There were kings who were good and who were bad. In fact, there were some who took the throne and some to whom the throne was properly given. But a proper king had to be from a particular tribe and had to be anointed with particular oil, had to carry a torah that he wrote with him, had to act as a spiritual leader in conjunction with the high priest and/or a prophet, and had to follow a series of laws specific to the king.

I am not sure if the personally written copy of the law was required prior to his ascension to the throne, but I do acknowledge the rest with some fuzzy memory regarding the specific series of laws you have in mind after your last comma. Regardless there are prophesies about what kind of king this "lowliest of men" will be.

Isaiah 11 has a beautiful description. For those unfamiliar with it, is says in part:

And the spirit of Jehovah will settle upon him,
The spirit of wisdom and of understanding,
The spirit of counsel and of mightiness,
The spirit of knowledge and of the fear of Jehovah.
And he will find delight in the fear of Jehovah.
He will not judge by what appears to his eyes,
Nor reprove simply according to what his ears hear.
He will judge the lowly with fairness, (or "righteousness.")
And with uprightness he will give reproof in behalf of the meek ones of the earth.
He will strike the earth with the rod of his mouth
And put the wicked to death with the breath (or "spirit.") of his lips.
Righteousness will be the belt around his waist,
And faithfulness the belt of his hips.
- Isaiah 11:2-5

Filling those shoes even near-perfectly would be amazing. Done perfectly even more so. Even among the specific bloodline that would be very rare.

 

[Harmonious]

I am not sure if the personally written copy of the law was required prior to his ascension to the throne, but I do acknowledge the rest with some fuzzy memory regarding the specific series of laws you have in mind after your last comma. Regardless there are prophesies about what kind of king this "lowliest of men" will be.

Isaiah 11 has a beautiful description. For those unfamiliar with it, is says in part:

And the spirit of Jehovah will settle upon him,
The spirit of wisdom and of understanding,
The spirit of counsel and of mightiness,
The spirit of knowledge and of the fear of Jehovah.
And he will find delight in the fear of Jehovah.
He will no judge by what appears to his eyes,
Nor reprove simply according to what his ears hear.
He will judge the lowly with fairness, (or "righteousness.")
And with uprightness he will give reproof in behalf of the meek ones of the earth.
He will strike the earth with the rod of his mouth
And put the wicked to death with the breath (or "spirit.") of his lips.
Righteousness will be the belt around his waist,
And faithfulness the belt of his hips.
- Isaiah 11:2-5

Filling those shoes even near-perfectly would be amazing. Done perfectly even more so. Even among the specific bloodline that would be very rare.

That's true. It will be very rare. But these guys do exist.

As for the copy of the law... Once a Jewish king is officially anointed, one of his specific commandments is to actually write, as a scribe, his own personal Torah scroll. All Five Books of Moses, on parchment, with a quill and ink. And once he's completed the writing and dedicating of it, one of his tasks is to read the Book of Deuteronomy in front of as big an audience as can possibly attend, at least once every seven years.

There are others, but that is the one rosends was addressing.

 

[BilliardsBall]

The Jews of Hollywood?

Like Mel Gibson?

Gibson believes in booze. He said he made his Passion of the Christ film to relive himself of a religious burden he felt.

 

[BilliardsBall]

I am not sure if the personally written copy of the law was required prior to his ascension to the throne, but I do acknowledge the rest with some fuzzy memory regarding the specific series of laws you have in mind after your last comma. Regardless there are prophesies about what kind of king this "lowliest of men" will be.

Isaiah 11 has a beautiful description. For those unfamiliar with it, is says in part:

And the spirit of Jehovah will settle upon him,
The spirit of wisdom and of understanding,
The spirit of counsel and of mightiness,
The spirit of knowledge and of the fear of Jehovah.
And he will find delight in the fear of Jehovah.
He will not judge by what appears to his eyes,
Nor reprove simply according to what his ears hear.
He will judge the lowly with fairness, (or "righteousness.")
And with uprightness he will give reproof in behalf of the meek ones of the earth.
He will strike the earth with the rod of his mouth
And put the wicked to death with the breath (or "spirit.") of his lips.
Righteousness will be the belt around his waist,
And faithfulness the belt of his hips.
- Isaiah 11:2-5

Filling those shoes even near-perfectly would be amazing. Done perfectly even more so. Even among the specific bloodline that would be very rare.

Nicely written.

 

[Akivah]

Somebody asked:
"Are you suggesting that converts are not, and cannot be, "true" Jews?
Are you going to suggest that most modern Jews are Khazar imposters?
Can we look forward to your bringing up The Protocols of the Elders of Zion?"


Those three questions are basic history. Page three, and four will go deeper into recorded Babylanion records. My intent is not to harm the history, or credibility of the tribe of Judah, but to free Christians from false teaching in changed scripture by non-Jews who claim to be Jews, and are not. Jesus dealt with these same ones. With the death of Jesus, these false Jews felt very much in control…they did not then, or now understand Jesus came to die, and used these false Jews to carry out Gods plan. Satan never uses something new. He uses the same traps time and again, because they keep working. I am always amazed at those who walk into these traps. He get the foolish out on a limb, then he cuts it off. He always cuts it off.

Finally an understandable answer from you. You're deep into conspiracy theories and Jewish hatred. You've already claimed that Jews make all the movies, I know that claims such as Jews owning all the banks or making matzos from children's blood can't be far behind.

 

[Domenic]

Finally an understandable answer from you. You're deep into conspiracy theories and Jewish hatred. You've already claimed that Jews make all the movies, I know that claims such as Jews owning all the banks or making matzos from children's blood can't be far behind.

I am not anti-any people. False Jews are not Jews. They are a different people. I was not talking about all the movies...the 10 commandment type are made by Jews..
I have said nothing about Jews owning banks, or that they are part of any conspiracy. All of my remarks are aimed at False Jews, as they are aimed at false religions.
I will say this: if anybody even says the word JEW, you people mark them as Jew haters. Jews always say things about others that are not good. I have never done that toward Jews. I have toward false Jews who have changed scripture, and are anti-God. I don't like you people because you shout Jew-hater to those who do not agree with you. I think you people need to grow up. In the scriptures God said: (In the Hebrew scriptures) Ezekiel 3:7 "But as for the house of Israel, they will not want to listen to you, for they are not wanting to listen to me; because of all of those of the house of Israel are the hardheaded and hardhearted." I don't expect Jews to listen to me, because they don't listen to God.

 

[catch22]

@rosends

Going back to our debate on Genesis Chapter 18, James Tabor replied to me finally. Here is his response, copy-pasted directly:

Thanks Dan, good to hear from you.

The source for these emendations is Ginsberg, popularized by Bullinger. You are correct, Ginsberg’s view is not without detractors but on the whole I find it convincing—especially internally, i.e. the passages that are asserted to be altered seem to reflect the motivations ascribed. It is a complex subject.

Best,

James Tabor

I'll have to spend some time looking into these people, as perhaps you will as well. Alas, there is his source citation and presumably we can continue to simply agree to disagree on the matter.