How has the age of Trump affected your views on religion?

[julianalexander745]

It has shown me that a whole lot of people are real flakey-fakey with their faith.

How did you not know that before Trump was elected?

 

[Father Heathen]

How did you not know that before Trump was elected?

Of course I did but was still shocked by the amount of people who were willing to toss their Christ under the bus for Trump.

 

[julianalexander745]

Of course I did but was still shocked by the amount of people who were willing to toss their Christ under the bus for Trump.

Like who? Do you have any data to back that up?

Were people supporting McCain, Romney or even Bush 2 based upon their religion?

 

[Mr Spinkles]

Trump has not affected my view on religion either. Why would it?

You aren't even a little surprised that so many in this country who claim that religion is of paramount importance, have attached themselves like barnacles to a maritally-challenged, foul-mouthed New Yorker, who claims the Bible is his favorite book yet cannot identify a single verse in it?

It's not a rhetorical question, I am genuinely interested to hear why that doesn't surprise you / what your take is. Because I am trying to wrap my head around it. Thanks.

 

[Good-Ole-Rebel]

Let me be a little more specific. Consider the following statement that the President made after he fired Sec of State Rex Tillerson:


View attachment 34603

Do you really think the former CEO of one of the world’s largest international companies was dumb as a rock and lazy as hell, or was Trump simply lashing out in response to a comment Rex had made that Trump doesn’t read briefing reports and asks his staff to do things that are illegal? How does this kind of behavior from the president, align with your Christian worldview?

What I am getting at is this: there’s POLlCY, and then there’s BEHAVIOR.

I am always going to support the candidate whose POLICY I agree with. If I think gay marriage should be legal, I am going to vote for the candidate who supports gay marriage. And I assume you will vote against. That’s because we disagree on POLICY and I get that.

But there’s a certain minimum acceptable standard of BEHAVIOR that I can stomach in a person I would support for the highest office in our country.

For example: if someone supported gay marriage, but constantly used their immense public platform to lie and bully and spread bigotry, I could not in good conscience support that candidate. I would even risk acquiescing to a Republican candidate who disagrees with my politics. After all, some things are more important than winning.

But it sounds like for you, the decision is more one dimensional. This candidate supports the policies I agree with - nothing else matters. Is that correct?

Or am I wrong; are there things Trump could do that would cause you to be unable to support him - he just hasn’t yet sunk low enough to cross your threshold?

Who can sink as low as the Democratic Party? None.

So these 'sinkers' hate Trump. Why? Because he doesn't represent them at all. That appeals to me. Those who I despise, the 'sinkers' are against Trump. That alone is enough to make me for him.

If what you say is true, that you would not vote for one to use their platform to lie and bully and spread bigotry, then how can you vote for anyone in the Democratic Party?

I hate the Democratic Party's 'Policy'. I hate the Democratic Party's 'Behavior'. Thus, no problem voting for Trump here. And since these things are important to you, you should do the same.

Good-Ole-Rebel

 

[Mr Spinkles]

Like who? Do you have any data to back that up?

Were people supporting McCain, Romney or even Bush 2 based upon their religion?

I know this was directed at Father Heathen but if I may: I think the difference is that McCain, Romney and Bush 2 did not (and would not) produce a daily drumbeat of tweets that are indisputably at odds with behavior Christians would condone or aspire to - or so one would think.

Sure you can debate whether their policies were consistent with Christianity or not but you would never see Romney stoop as low as literally making fun of another Republican opponent's face, or insinuating McCain wasn't a war hero because "I like people who don't get captured" .... just really low, base, indefensible stuff. "Boorish" is the word Trump's defenders use to whitewash it.

 

[Good-Ole-Rebel]

There is a difference between voting for who you see as the "lesser evil" and licking their boots while you pretend they're perfect and infallible.

Who is pretending anyone here is perfect and infallible. I never said that. Are you trying to put words in my mouth. Which is just another way of lying. You must be a democrat. You're such a clown.

Good-Ole-Rebel

 

[Good-Ole-Rebel]

Sounds like your version of Christianity has very little to do with Christ.

Sounds like you don't know what you are talking about.

Good-Ole-Rebel

 

[Mr Spinkles]

Who can sink as low as the Democratic Party? None.

So these 'sinkers' hate Trump. Why? Because he doesn't represent them at all. That appeals to me. Those who I despise, the 'sinkers' are against Trump. That alone is enough to make me for him.

If what you say is true, that you would not vote for one to use their platform to lie and bully and spread bigotry, then how can you vote for anyone in the Democratic Party?

I hate the Democratic Party's 'Policy'. I hate the Democratic Party's 'Behavior'. Thus, no problem voting for Trump here. And since these things are important to you, you should do the same.

Good-Ole-Rebel

Thanks but you did not answer my question. How was Trump's tweet about Rex Tillerson consistent with your Christian worldview? Do you think it was appropriate for the president to talk that way, or would you say, sure it was bad manners but it's something you are willing to overlook due to the bigger picture ...?

 

[Good-Ole-Rebel]

Thanks but you did not answer my question. How was Trump's tweet about Rex Tillerson consistent with your Christian worldview? Do you think it was appropriate for the president to talk that way, or would you say, sure it was bad manners but it's something you are willing to overlook due to the bigger picture ...?

I don't worry about bad manners. Remember, Trump knew him much better than you or I.

Good-Ole-Rebel

 

[Mr Spinkles]

I don't worry about bad manners. Remember, Trump knew him much better than you or I.

Good-Ole-Rebel

Got it, so that was bad manners, not retaliating against Rex for mentioning in an interview that Trump doesn't read briefing reports and asks his staff to do things that are illegal, and gets angry when they tell him it's illegal.

Does the reverse hold true, would you also say that Rex also knew Trump much better than you or I?

 

[Good-Ole-Rebel]

Got it, so that was bad manners, not retaliating against Rex for mentioning in an interview that Trump doesn't read briefing reports and asks his staff to do things that are illegal, and gets angry when they tell him it's illegal.

Does the reverse hold true, would you also say that Rex also knew Trump much better than you or I?

I don't know, you're the one calling it bad manners. I said I was not worried about bad manners. And I'm not.

I'm sure Rex knows Trump better than you or I. But, Rex is no longer in the picture to worry about....is he? In other words, we are not voting for Rex...for anything.

Good-Ole-Rebel

 

[Alea iacta est]

You aren't even a little surprised that so many in this country who claim that religion is of paramount importance, have attached themselves like barnacles to a maritally-challenged, foul-mouthed New Yorker, who claims the Bible is his favorite book yet cannot identify a single verse in it?

It's not a rhetorical question, I am genuinely interested to hear why that doesn't surprise you / what your take is. Because I am trying to wrap my head around it. Thanks.

First of all, I'm not an American nor live (any longer) in the US.

I hardly see Trump as a religious person. In my country people would never vote on religious politicians in the begin with. I like the Bible but I would have hard time by just randomly quoting any Bible verse. Personally, I focus more on understanding the Bible instead of memorizing the Bible without understanding it. If someone asks me my favorite part of the Bible I would either say Genesis 1:1 or The Songs of Solomon in order to mess with people (I have a very special humor).

I have noticed that people like to ask about religious affiliation but I see it as a formality rather than real interest. I still think people are weird in the US when they just say "How are you" (it's not even a question in the way they say it) especially in stores.

Trump is certainly not the best Christian there is but I didn't really consider Obama being a Christian either.

 

[Mr Spinkles]

I don't know, you're the one calling it bad manners. I said I was not worried about bad manners. And I'm not.

I wasn't calling it bad manners I was asking what you think of it. And you still haven't answered the question - why is that? For the third time: how was Trump's tweet consistent with your Christian worldview?

I'm sure Rex knows Trump better than you or I. But, Rex is no longer in the picture to worry about....is he? In other words, we are not voting for Rex...for anything.

Right. So when Rex says Trump doesn't read reports and gets angry when his staff tell him he cannot do illegal things, your reaction to that is, Rex probably knows Trump better than you or I. How then, does Rex's description of Trump comport with your Christian worldview of how a leader should behave?

 

[Mr Spinkles]

First of all, I'm not an American nor live (any longer) in the US.

I hardly see Trump as a religious person. In my country people would never vote on religious politicians in the begin with. I like the Bible but I would have hard time by just randomly quoting any Bible verse. Personally, I focus more on understanding the Bible instead of memorizing the Bible without understanding it. If someone asks me my favorite part of the Bible I would either say Genesis 1:1 or The Songs of Solomon in order to mess with people (I have a very special humor).

I have noticed that people like to ask about religious affiliation but I see it as a formality rather than real interest. I still think people are weird in the US when they just say "How are you" (it's not even a question in the way they say it) especially in stores.

Trump is certainly not the best Christian there is but I didn't really consider Obama being a Christian either.

Thanks. I guess the difference between Trump and Obama that I'm trying to highlight here, is that if (and I say if) Obama was not a good Christian, he was not blasting indisputable, shameful proof of that fact to 67 million Twitter followers daily.

Trump could say and believe whatever he wants in private, but when he goes on these Twitter-tantrums so publicly and so often, and hits so low, isn't silence by his supporters the same thing as acceptance?

 

[Good-Ole-Rebel]

I wasn't calling it bad manners I was asking what you think of it. And you still haven't answered the question - why is that? For the third time: how was Trump's tweet consistent with your Christian worldview?
Right. So when Rex says Trump doesn't read reports and gets angry when his staff tell him he cannot do illegal things, your reaction to that is, Rex probably knows Trump better than you or I. How then, does Rex's description of Trump comport with your Christian worldview of how a leader should behave?

You brought up the 'bad manners', not me. As I said, I am not worried about bad manners. Trumps statements do not have to be consistent with my world view. But his stand as a conservative does. I'm not concerned about his tweets as you are. I'm concerned about what he does. So, ask me again so I can repeat it again.

I don't care what Rex thinks. He is out of the picture. Trump is not. Rex could be sour grapes like you. Thus why would I care what he says especially when he is out of the picture.

Your attempt to try and divide Christians from Trump is lame. The only thing you have to offer as an alternative is the Democratic Party candidate. And what Christian would vote for that?

Good-Ole-Rebel

 

[LuisDantas]

Whether you are an atheist like me, or Christian, or anything else, American or not: how has Trump’s rise affected your views on religion?

Not just your views, but how you perceive others’ views, the roles religion plays in our personal and political lives, etc?

Mostly, it has lampshaded to me how dangerous it is to presume a modicum of common sense beneath professed beliefs.

Regrettably, some people just don't value their own ability to discern. That makes the need to point out abuses of belief that much more crucial for us all.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Whether you are an atheist like me, or Christian, or anything else, American or not: how has Trump’s rise affected your views on religion?

Not just your views, but how you perceive others’ views, the roles religion plays in our personal and political lives, etc?

Speaking for myself: Trump’s rise has brought into sharp relief for me how important it is to have some kind of moral compass. In the past I have disagreed with conservative Christians for example, but I never doubted that we shared, for the most part, common values like the rule of law.

I am sheepishly embarrassed that Trump was raised Presbyterian (like me) and has come to disregard religion entirely (like me) - no matter how he lies to the contrary. I am astonished to find myself, as an atheist, wishing that Donald Trump was in fact a Christian, because almost any system of values and standards of behavior would be an improvement over nihilistic narcissism and bigotry fed to cheering crowds.

I am equally astonished at how little any of that matters, apparently, to about 40% of the country - most of it not only Christian, but given to pretenses that Christianity plays a prominent part of their social lives and political inclinations.

I always wondered how vast groups of Christians throughout history were able to keep their religious faith in a completely separate mental bucket, in order to go on murdering each other as well as non-Christians, in the name of things like nationalism, or Arianism, or a strong-man leader they cling to.

For the first time in my life, it feels like I have caught a glimpse of how this can happen. It reminds me of the massive, strange rock formations that you see in the Rockies - the unlikely arches and the massive boulders set precariously on hilltops. It looks like something that is at odds with itself, something that shouldn’t be possible; and if it ever was possible, only in some strange, ancient past.

I am not intentionally disparaging Christianity, or Christians, here. To the contrary, I appreciate now more than ever how preferable most religion is in America to the shameless cult of personality that is the Trump Tribe.

It hasn't. It's a repeat of the Bush Jr administration where the fake Christians all worship him instead of worshipping God. At least I was old enough to remember Dubya's presidency as a teen, so I've seen it all before.

 

[Mr Spinkles]

You brought up the 'bad manners', not me. As I said, I am not worried about bad manners. Trumps statements do not have to be consistent with my world view. I'm not concerned about his tweets as you are. I'm concerned about what he does. So, ask me again so I can repeat it again.

No thanks, you managed to sort of answer the question the third time.

What is an example of something he has done that most exemplifies the Christian worldview?

I don't care what Rex thinks. He is out of the picture. Trump is not. Rex could be sour grapes like you. Thus why would I care what he says especially when he is out of the picture.

Well what Rex said was about Trump, who as you correctly noted, remains in the picture. Are you saying you not only do not care what the President of the United States says, but you also do not care whether he reads his briefing reports and gets angry when his staff inform him that he cannot do something illegal?

I would be fascinated to hear how the lofty moral principles of Christianity can find their way to being so nihilistic, and morally relative, on such a grave topic.

Tangentially: when Trump said Rex was dumb as a rock and lazy as hell, you responded that Trump knows Rex better than us. But I guess Trump could have just been sour grapes when he said that about Rex, right? After all, it was shortly after Rex made his comment about Trump. Otherwise it feels like you're applying a curious double standard, you seem inclined to accept Trump's childish Twitter-tantrum against Rex without question ("Trump knows him better than you or I"), yet you dismiss the gravity and potential accuracy of Rex's comment about Trump ("could be sour grapes").

Are you familiar with the concept of cognitive dissonance?
Cognitive dissonance - Wikipedia

Your attempt to try and divide Christians from Trump is lame. The only thing you have to offer as an alternative is the Democratic Party candidate. And what Christian would vote for that?

I do not have the power to divide Christians from Trump; if it was even possible, Trump's own words and actions would have accomplished it already.

I assume your question is rhetorical since many Christians, as you undoubtedly know, identify with the Democratic party as well as with the Republican party. Chart below, source here:
Party affiliation - Religion in America: U.S. Religious Data, Demographics and Statistics

"What Christian would vote for" a Democratic candidate really evades / begs the question I am trying to ask of you, which I haven't heard a good answer for, which is how Donald Trump best exemplifies the Christian worldview. To be specific I would point you to the question I asked in the beginning of this post: What is an example of something he has done that most exemplifies the Christian worldview?

 

[Good-Ole-Rebel]

No thanks, you managed to sort of answer the question the third time.

What is an example of something he has done that most exemplifies the Christian worldview?

Well what Rex said was about Trump, who as you correctly noted, remains in the picture. Are you saying you not only do not care what the President of the United States says, but you also do not care whether he reads his briefing reports and gets angry when his staff inform him that he cannot do something illegal?

I would be fascinated to hear how the lofty moral principles of Christianity can find their way to being so nihilistic, and morally relative, on such a grave topic.

Tangentially: when Trump said Rex was dumb as a rock and lazy as hell, you responded that Trump knows Rex better than us. But I guess Trump could have just been sour grapes when he said that about Rex, right? After all, it was shortly after Rex made his comment about Trump. Otherwise it feels like you're applying a curious double standard, you seem inclined to accept Trump's childish Twitter-tantrum against Rex without question ("Trump knows him better than you or I"), yet you dismiss the gravity and potential accuracy of Rex's comment about Trump ("could be sour grapes").

Are you familiar with the concept of cognitive dissonance?
Cognitive dissonance - Wikipedia

I do not have the power to divide Christians from Trump; if it was even possible, Trump's own words and actions would have accomplished it already.

I assume your question is rhetorical since many Christians, as you undoubtedly know, identify with the Democratic party as well as with the Republican party. Chart below, source here:
Party affiliation - Religion in America: U.S. Religious Data, Demographics and Statistics

"What Christian would vote for" a Democratic candidate really evades / begs the question I am trying to ask of you, which I haven't heard a good answer for, which is how Donald Trump best exemplifies the Christian worldview. To be specific I would point you to the question I asked in the beginning of this post: What is an example of something he has done that most exemplifies the Christian worldview?

I do not trust your graph in identifying Christians. No, I do not know one Christian who is democrat. There are plenty of people who claim Christianity, but that means nothing.

Yes, I don't care what Rex said about Trump. Concerning Trump's tweets about Rex, I don't care either.

Trump is the Conservative. Christians are conservative. It is that simple. He keeps the liberal left angry.

Good-Ole-Rebel