How does Feminism view Men?

[vaguelyhumanoid]

more room to dominate feminism in what best serves their willy

Are you implying that men only identify as feminist to get laid? If so, that's literally the exact same argument used by hardline MRAs. If not, it's still pretty transphobic (or at least erasing trans identities) to say that male = penis.

sly implication that those female feminist theorists were a tiny non-influential minority

Um, where?

 

[MysticSang'ha]

That is freaky. A group dedicated to women in which the leaders become mostly men?! What do you see as the solution: banning males from leadership positions, teaching women to dominate, teaching women to project their voices, or what?

It isn't as freaky as you think. And it isn't a simple black-and-white solution.

 

[Digital_Monk]

I've met a couple of self-described feminists. I didn't like them as people. I can't judge feminism based off of those women, but It would be convenient to do so.

 

[Horrorble]

It was this sort of attitude that made the 3rd wave come around in the first place. It's that kind of attitude that made black women give up on feminism and start womanism (that's why it's often referred to as "white women's feminism"). They also made pariahs out of trans women.

Do you honestly think womanism was created as a defence of men or a defence of black women? One of my black radical feminist friends (I know several) wrote a blog article on the differences between black feminism and womanism, if you're interested I can PM it to you.

Do I agree with Janice Raymond that transwomen rape the female body by transitioning? No, I agree with Andrea dworkin on the right to transition medically. I haven't read janice's work. I've seen her talk once and it wasn't about transwoman, it was a talk about "comfort women."
But you see, this issue is much more complicated than that.
Lesbians are being told by some transactivists that they are transphobic for not having sex with anyone with male genitalia.
If we don't want a transwoman who has used their maleness to rape females in a woman's prison we are transphobic for prioritising women's safety over validating an identity.
Not all transwomen subscribe to liberal feminism either. For one, I'm friends with a transwoman who was prostituted who is radically against the sex industry, and she isn't alone in that.

 

[Horrorble]

Do you honestly think womanism was created as a defence of men or a defence of black women? One of my black radical feminist friends (I know several) wrote a blog article on the differences between black feminism and womanism, if you're interested I can PM it to you.

Do I agree with Janice Raymond that transwomen rape the female body by transitioning? No, I agree with Andrea dworkin on the right to transition medically. I haven't read janice's work. I've seen her talk once and it wasn't about transwoman, it was a talk about "comfort women."
But you see, this issue is much more complicated than that.
Lesbians are being told by some transactivists that they are transphobic for not having sex with anyone with male genitalia.
If we don't want a transwoman who has used their maleness to rape females in a woman's prison we are transphobic for prioritising women's safety over validating an identity.
Not all transwomen subscribe to liberal feminism either. For one, I'm friends with a transwoman who was prostituted who is radically against the sex industry, and she isn't alone in that.

I would like to add that the issue with women of colour, especially black women and radical feminism, is that they are often "underground." They don't get to speak at universities as much as white women, their books are not recognised as radical feminist classics, like white women's are. But we exist more than you think. Even womanists like Alice Walker are radical leaning more than liberal leaning.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Lesbians are being told by some transactivists that they are transphobic for not having sex with anyone with male genitalia.

Are you talking about that "cotton ceiling" stuff that a certain type of radfem seized on, misrepresented and used to slander lesbian trans women as sexual predators? That's largely a myth (the way it was portrayed by transphobic radfems) that started over a small workshop that Planned Parenthood hosted dealing with the issues between trans lesbians and cis lesbians.

http://www.transadvocate.com/cotton...trans-conspiracy-to-rape-lesbians_n_10251.htm

By the way, rejecting someone solely because of their genitals (or what you assume their genitals to be) and effectively erasing their identity and their actual lived lives is transphobic and is, at the very least, based on ignorance. It's not something that's an issue only between lesbian trans women and lesbian cis women, either. It exists with straight men and women, and gay men. Trans men face those problems, too. Sometimes we get turned down by gay men and straight women merely because we don't have an XY body. There's problems with that even with bisexuals!

It also leads to some confused and confusing stances, like how some lesbians will date FtMs but not MtFs.

So that topic was really to discuss issues of body shame and erasure of identity.

If we don't want a transwoman who has used their maleness to rape females in a woman's prison we are transphobic for prioritising women's safety over validating an identity.

Can you provide evidence of that? Links?

 

[Revoltingest]

Are you talking about that "cotton ceiling" stuff that a certain type of radfem seized on, misrepresented and used to slander lesbian trans women as sexual predators? That's largely a myth (the way it was portrayed by transphobic radfems) that started over a small workshop that Planned Parenthood hosted dealing with the issues between trans lesbians and cis lesbians.

http://www.transadvocate.com/cotton...trans-conspiracy-to-rape-lesbians_n_10251.htm

By the way, rejecting someone solely because of their genitals (or what you assume their genitals to be) and effectively erasing their identity and their actual lived lives is transphobic and is, at the very least, based on ignorance. It's not something that's an issue only between lesbian trans women and lesbian cis women, either. It exists with straight men and women, and gay men. Trans men face those problems, too. Sometimes we get turned down by gay men and straight women merely because we don't have an XY body. There's problems with that even with bisexuals!

It also leads to some confused and confusing stances, like how some lesbians will date FtMs but not MtFs.

So that topic was really to discuss issues of body shame and erasure of identity.

Can you provide evidence of that? Links?

This reminds me of a co-worker & friend who worked for me as a designer (sort of an assistant engineer).
We worked at a couple different companies together, so I knew him quite a while.
We talked a lot.
He was half black & half white.
He caught different kinds of grief for each half.
Trans folk are like that, in that they pose a 'danger' no matter what their situation.
MTF & FTM both have their male component of their history, so certain elements (fundies, radfems) will see them as potential rapists.

In your own words, how big a threat to normal society are you guys (gender flexible term here)?
Is there any risk that you might appear in a new TV show.....Keeping Up With St Frank"?

 

[Horrorble]

Are you talking about that "cotton ceiling" stuff that a certain type of radfem seized on, misrepresented and used to slander lesbian trans women as sexual predators? That's largely a myth (the way it was portrayed by transphobic radfems) that started over a small workshop that Planned Parenthood hosted dealing with the issues between trans lesbians and cis lesbians.

http://www.transadvocate.com/cotton...trans-conspiracy-to-rape-lesbians_n_10251.htm

By the way, rejecting someone solely because of their genitals (or what you assume their genitals to be) and effectively erasing their identity and their actual lived lives is transphobic and is, at the very least, based on ignorance. It's not something that's an issue only between lesbian trans women and lesbian cis women, either. It exists with straight men and women, and gay men. Trans men face those problems, too. Sometimes we get turned down by gay men and straight women merely because we don't have an XY body. There's problems with that even with bisexuals!

It also leads to some confused and confusing stances, like how some lesbians will date FtMs but not MtFs.

So that topic was really to discuss issues of body shame and erasure of identity.

I wasn't talking about the cotton ceiling workshop, however the rest of what you wrote, that is what I'm talking about.

Sorry but that's some modern/re-branded homophobia to say that gays and lesbians can no longer be attracted to genitals and physical sex.
Or how about female rape victims who no longer want to sleep with anyone with male genitalia?
I would 100% reject someone sexually based on their genitals/physical sex.

[/QUOTE]Can you provide evidence of that? Links?[/QUOTE]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-hampshire-35265124

Here's one example

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

I wasn't talking about the cotton ceiling workshop, however the rest of what you wrote, that is what I'm talking about.

Sorry but that's some modern/re-branded homophobia to say that gays and lesbians can no longer be attracted to genitals and physical sex.

Excuse me, but I thought that radical feminists believed that "biology is not destiny" and were opposed to essentialism? So what makes a person a man or a woman is their genitals? You can't have it both ways. Transphobic radfems accuse trans people of "reifying" gender norms, meanwhile they're acting as gender gatekeepers and using biological determinist rhetoric. How is that not, at least, hypocrisy? How is it not cognitive dissonance?

It's not about saying that cis gay men and cis lesbians "can't" be attracted to penises and vulvas/vaginas, respectively. The issue is the erasure of the identities of trans people, our perspectives on our bodies and how we actually live our own lives.

It also leads to some confused and confusing logical conclusions. So a lesbian would date a trans man with a vagina, since that's how she defines a woman? A gay man would date a trans woman with a penis because that's how he defines a man? It makes no sense. Trans men are men, and trans women are women.

Or how about female rape victims who no longer want to sleep with anyone with male genitalia?

I would say they need to work on dealing with their trauma and heal from it.

I would 100% reject someone sexually based on their genitals/physical sex.

That's very sad, imo.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-hampshire-35265124

Here's one example

Obviously, that's a very troubled person. But what does their being trans have to do with it? Should a cis woman who has raped other women be placed in a male prison, then? Do you view her as some sort of "special" threat? Or there something magical about penises that make them automatic dangers to females?

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

In your own words, how big a threat to normal society are you guys (gender flexible term here)?

Apparently we're as dangerous as thermonuclear explosions. (But that may be my ego talking. I dunno. )

Is there any risk that you might appear in a new TV show.....Keeping Up With St Frank"?

Now there's an idea!

 

[Revoltingest]

Now there's an idea!

There's something to be said for making a spectacle of oneself when it pays millions.

 

[Horrorble]

Excuse me, but I thought that radical feminists believed that "biology is not destiny" and were opposed to essentialism? So what makes a person a man or a woman is their genitals? You can't have it both ways. Transphobic radfems accuse trans people of "reifying" gender norms, meanwhile they're acting as gender gatekeepers and using biological determinist rhetoric. How is that not, at least, hypocrisy? How is it not cognitive dissonance?

It's not about saying that cis gay men and cis lesbians "can't" be attracted to penises and vulvas/vaginas, respectively. The issue is the erasure of the identities of trans people, our perspectives on our bodies and how we actually live our own lives.

It also leads to some confused and confusing logical conclusions. So a lesbian would date a trans man with a vagina, since that's how she defines a woman? A gay man would date a trans woman with a penis because that's how he defines a man? It makes no sense. Trans men are men, and trans women are women.

I would say it's cognitive dissonance to not accept that there are differences between women and transwomen and men and transmen. If there wasnt, you wouldn't be transitioning would you?

The context of biology not being destiny is in reference to gender roles. That's the context.

I would say they need to work on dealing with their trauma and heal from it.

Moving forward after being raped doesn't mean having to sleep males. I don't believe that's a requirement to being content in life.

That's very sad, imo.

Tough! If a woman rejects me based on my physical sex I won't be guilt tripping her with "lesbophobia"

Obviously, that's a very troubled person. But what does their being trans have to do with it? Should a cis woman who has raped other women be placed in a male prison, then? Do you view her as some sort of "special" threat? Or there something magical about penises that make them automatic dangers to females?

Yes! The answer is yes it is a special threat when it's on a rapist. A male who uses their penis as a weapon against women is a special threat to women. Yes!

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

I would say it's cognitive dissonance to not accept that there are differences between women and transwomen and men and transmen. If there wasnt, you wouldn't be transitioning would you?

The context of biology not being destiny is in reference to gender roles. That's the context.



Moving forward after being raped doesn't mean having to sleep males. I don't believe that's a requirement to being content in life.



Tough! If a woman rejects me based on my physical sex I won't be guilt tripping her with "lesbophobia"



Yes! The answer is yes it is a special threat when it's on a rapist. A male who uses their penis as a weapon against women is a special threat to women. Yes!

All of this boils down to irrational and superstitious fear of penises (anti-phallusism?) and it's really quite ridiculous. The obsession over penises is quite neurotic, pathological. I've noticed that radical feminism is full of rape and other trauma victims who never healed from it and just cloaked their neuroticism in belligerent political activism. (By the way, I was sexually abused as a child, myself, and there's rape victims in my family and in other people I've known/know.) I'm sure if I were molested/raped by a female, I'd have a neurosis about females.

This a good post and I think you should read and think about it: http://queerfeminism.com/2012/03/27...for-all-queer-and-trans-people-to-fight-back/

 

[Horrorble]

All of this boils down to irrational and superstitious fear of penises (anti-phallusism?) and it's really quite ridiculous. The obsession over penises is quite neurotic, pathological. I've noticed that radical feminism is full of rape and other trauma victims who never healed from it and just cloaked their neuroticism in belligerent political activism. (By the way, I was sexually abused as a child, myself, and there's rape victims in my family and in other people I've known/know.) I'm sure if I were molested/raped by a female, I'd have a neurosis about females.

This a good post and I think you should read and think about it: http://queerfeminism.com/2012/03/27...for-all-queer-and-trans-people-to-fight-back/

"We will be over here, having fabulous queer sex without you."

Lmao! BYE then!
That's the whole point!
BYE!

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

"We will be over here, having fabulous queer sex without you."

Lmao! BYE then!
That's the whole point!
BYE!

Way to miss the point. I notice you didn't reply to what I said about radfems and their general neuroses about male genitals and their history of unresolved sexual trauma. Hmm.

 

[Horrorble]

Way to miss the point. I notice you didn't reply to what I said about radfems and their general neuroses about male genitals and their history of unresolved sexual trauma. Hmm.

Hhmmm
Good luck with your healing frank!
Since you're spot on with that, more than other rape victims who are just mentally ill and need to touch ****

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Hhmmm
Good luck with your healing frank!
Since you're spot on with that, more than other rape victims who are just mentally ill and need to touch d**k

I didn't say that. I am saying that you, and others, need to examine the root of your issues, though. Maybe you truly just aren't into male-bodied people. I don't know. But it's rather difficult to know when you have trauma clouding things. That's something only you can decide, but it's all pretty apparent to me since I know very well the psychology of trauma.

I don't see you trying to explain why the mere presence of a penis is a threat in of itself, anyway. You are just resorting to mocking. Have I struck a nerve?

 

[freethinker44]

Moving forward after being raped doesn't mean having to sleep males. I don't believe that's a requirement to being content in life.

Women that do or agree with this are sexist.

 

[Horrorble]

You are just resorting to mocking. Have I struck a nerve?

Not really I was laughing. But I think we should go our ways with this one.

 

[Horrorble]

Women that do or agree with this are sexist.

Or how about just leave women who don't want to have sex with you alone.
Is that difficult?